So what do you want me to invent or discover ?

[sananda]

What do you want me to invent or discover ?

 

how about room temperature superconductors so we can have cheap maglev trains.

 

or how about an anti-gravity device... think of the applications in the construction industry and transport industries alone.

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A scientist by definition does not believe that he knows everything.

 

you wouldn't think that reading some of the posts on this forum LOL

 

(before anyone says anything about my posts, I don't claim to be a scientist LOL)

[Mokele]

"As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life - so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so that you can meet girls."

-- Matt Cartmill, Prof of Anthropology

[StringJunky]

It's a good point. This is my first step into Science and already I feel that I have to do things in a certain way. I don't feel free to explore, to go off at a tangent, to drift or to discover.

 

I feel that if I have a light bulb moment then I will need to justify it and argue it's case when in fact that might just be wasting time.

 

Sometimes the proof is in the pudding, not in the cooking instructions.

 

Having said that, the responses on here and on the 'magic' thread have all been helpful and helped me build an initial picture in my mind as to what the world of science is all about and who the people are who inhabit it.

 

It's my beginning and i'm enjoying finding out.

 

It's best to learn the conventional view of anything scientific here, understand it, THEN challenge it if you find an apparent anomaly or have an alternative hypothesis...don't forget, some of these scientists here are the bearers of hundreds of years of hard-earned research by past and living scientists...we amateurs are not, realistically, going to turn upside down an established Law or Theory with one 'lightbulb' moment are we?

 

If we present an idea contrary to this convention, we must accept that they will try and rip it to pieces...this is the nature of science.

[Mr Skeptic]

......or what would be the greatest invention/discovery of all time ?

 

The greatest discovery would be the Grand Unified Theory that explains all of science. The greatest invention would be a true AI, since it could then improve itself and bring about a technological singularity (and yes you do also want to make sure it's a subservient AI).

[The Clairvoyant]

we amateurs are not, realistically, going to turn upside down an established Law or Theory with one 'lightbulb' moment are we? .

 

I suppose this is where I have my first issue. I think it's possible that we could do that. The person who invented the wheel didn't have to use an established theory they just had a moment of inspiration perhaps through seeing a tumbleweed blowing in the wind, or a rock rolling down a hill. The 'hows and whys' came after but the invention came first.

 

If we present an idea contrary to this convention, we must accept that they will try and rip it to pieces...this is the nature of science.

 

Get the idea working first and there's no way anybody can rip a theory to pieces is there ?

[mooeypoo]

I suppose this is where I have my first issue. I think it's possible that we could do that. The person who invented the wheel didn't have to use an established theory they just had a moment of inspiration perhaps through seeing a tumbleweed blowing in the wind, or a rock rolling down a hill. The 'hows and whys' came after but the invention came first.

 

Get the idea working first and there's no way anybody can rip a theory to pieces is there ?

It's called peer review, and it's an essential part of science. We are supposed to try and rip your theory to shreds, it's like playing "devil's advocate". The stronger the theory, the better it stands this trial by fire. If it fails, it's obviously not good enough, and you go back to the drawing board. If it succeeds, we go on to the next steps.

 

The problem with formulating an idea without knowing the current theories is that you are very likely to run into a problem you don't know about, that the current theory actually solves.

 

The current theories were not invented out of convenience or luck, they took years (and sometimes decades and more) to formulate, going through changes and adaptations because of phenomena that were discovered and caused a problem with previous theories.

 

When you know why the theory is considered to be working, you know where its "holes" are too - you have much better chance of trying to figure out a competing theory that can actually be BETTER than the current one.

 

If you're just throwing out an idea without knowing what the current theories are, you're likely to be shot down by complex issues that exist in current theories and that current theories solve.

 

~moo

[The Clairvoyant]

It's called peer review, and it's an essential part of science. We are supposed to try and rip your theory to shreds, it's like playing "devil's advocate". The stronger the theory, the better it stands this trial by fire. If it fails, it's obviously not good enough, and you go back to the drawing board. If it succeeds, we go on to the next steps.

 

I understand that, but it wasn't the point I was making. There's no 'trial by fire' needed if the theory has already been put successfully into practice. Maybe the time spent discussing would be better spent 'doing' ? Would I be right in thinking that many simple theories may not have been thought of yet because the people with the capability are too busy with the complex stuff ?

[mooeypoo]

Quite frankly, Clairvoyant, thinking you can revolutionize physics without knowing what physics is at the moment is pretentious. How do you know what you're suggesting doesn't already exist if you don't know what exists and how it was found?

 

I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to reach a revolutionary idea if you don't know the current theories, but it is definitely much more improbable.

 

It's as if I would expect to revolutionize the way cars are made without knowing how a car works other than it having wheels. I might be able to revolutionize a car, but that would truly be a fluke. I have much better chances to figure out a revolutionary car if I study how current cars work, what problems exist in the current process of building cars and what current problems still exist.

 

Do you see the point we're trying to make here?

 

~moo

[The Clairvoyant]

Quite frankly, Clairvoyant, thinking you can revolutionize physics without knowing what physics is at the moment is pretentious. How do you know what you're suggesting doesn't already exist if you don't know what exists and how it was found?

 

I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to reach a revolutionary idea if you don't know the current theories, but it is definitely much more improbable.

 

It's as if I would expect to revolutionize the way cars are made without knowing how a car works other than it having wheels. I might be able to revolutionize a car, but that would truly be a fluke. I have much better chances to figure out a revolutionary car if I study how current cars work, what problems exist in the current process of building cars and what current problems still exist.

 

Do you see the point we're trying to make here?

 

~moo

 

I've told you already, I get your point. Not sure you get mine though. Does too much theorising cloud invention ? You seem to think it doesn't but maybe in fact it does. Sure, some great inventions and discoveries have come to pass through theories being tried and tested through Science but surely just as many have come from people having a clear mind (which you seem to think is just a 'fluke' ?)

[sananda]

there are two kinds of people...

 

those that don't know

and

those that know they don't know

[The Clairvoyant]

there are two kinds of people...

 

those that don't know

and

those that know they don't know

 

Maybe there's four,

 

those that think they don't know

and

those that think they know they don't know.

[sananda]

now that's some messed up stuff right there!