NavajoEverclear Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Jeez this must be tedious, but i promise this is the last time i'll ask this type of question. I've started like two other threads on basically the same premise, and posted my demand for someone to make me understand on more threads than i can remember. So I was over this idiocy when someone pointed out to me how complicated evolution really is, and anyone who claims to understand really how it works is not being honest. But i was just wondering, can anyone tell me or is there a book that tells me step by step how we got to where we are today : I understand the concept that small variations lead up to complex adaptations, i am just wondering how extensive our knowledge is of various events along the way to developing our complex bodies. If such knowledge exists- i think their should be a book that identifys all the features of humans (could be done with another creature, but humans'd probably be best cause easier to relate to) and tells where each component began and at least the origins of the milestone modifications leading up the current form. People questioning evolution always mention the eye, well how about the ear? How the Uranus did all those little parts get themselves together? I SAID i understand small changes accumulate to bigger ones. I want specific examples, how did the hammer, the anvil, or the strirrup start, what about that spiral thing with the fluid and the hairs inside it? If we cant honestly identify the origin with some presiseness--- thats ok, just admit it. I'm not going to use it against you, like i said, even if we don't know, it doesn't proove anything, there is probably more complexity to the nature of evolution that we have braincells to compute. So you can either tell me or give me ambigous answers i'm used to. I don't care anymore, who knows why i'm even writing this. BTW-- i don't remember there being advertisements before on this site--- we aren't going commercial are we? If the Corporate Monster traps this site in its webbs i'm going to leave forever--- ok not that you care about me but you do care about the morals of resisiting the Megalomaniac that we are building the way for. However i have faith in evolution that if we do all become slaves there will be a lack of balance that will snap the back of evil and make everything go extinct expept monera and the whole world will start all over again . . . . or we could try to change the direction of society before that happens. (i am exaggerating by the way, but i believe you know my point) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 Sorry if it sounds like i'm complaining, i have gotten some good answers to my question before, i guess i'm just being psycho (but like i said i won't bug anyone about this ever again). Ok now i need to go do my homework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainMan Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Given that biologists still have jobs, not every question you can formulate will have an answer. But there are more than enough interesting findings to keep you going. What you have to remember though is that each detail you want to know about (for, say, humans) will eventually take you far from human biology and lead to a whole new game with entirely different questions. That said... The problem is that much of what is known is spread out in scientific journals. But a good overview necessary for understanding the evolutionary acomplishments would be Patterns and Processes of Vertebrate Evolution by Carroll, R. L. Humans are really just a twist on the same basic design of other vertebrates... This, along with a textbook on vertebrate physiology, and a text on human physiology, would seem to be what you are asking for... although some questions will only be answered in passing or not at all, which means digging into the references- digging into the scineitific journals. At that point, you will have reached the limits of knowledge aside from visiting and talking to the research facilities conducting current work on the subjects. And then, after doing that, you will know what is known, and you will know how to go about discovering (or at least searching for) answers to questions that are not yet known. Then you could write your own book, and you might realize that the best way to convey what you know to others without your knowledge would be to structure the book entirely differently from what you seem to have in mind here. But I digress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 So I was over this idiocy when someone pointed out to me how complicated evolution really is' date=' and anyone who claims to understand really how it works is not being honest. [/quote'] wasn't that quantum mechanics? But i was just wondering, can anyone tell me or is there a book that tells me step by step how we got to where we are today : I understand the concept that small variations lead up to complex adaptations, i am just wondering how extensive our knowledge is of various events along the way to developing our complex bodies. well there is no step by step guide to how we got from replicators in the primordial soup right through to homo sapiens sapiens however, there is an awful lot we do know. The thing is, when you go into a university library you will see it is huge, the biology section alone of my old uni filled up a whole floor, and there is all your evidence. The problem is that billions of years of evolution have led to some very complex organisms with very complex interactions. Just reading Dawkins' Selfish Gene, and then The Extended Phenotype will give you an impression of this, since there is a massive level of interaction from the genetic level right the way through to interspecies interactions. If such knowledge exists- i think their should be a book that identifys all the features of humans (could be done with another creature, but humans'd probably be best cause easier to relate to) and tells where each component began and at least the origins of the milestone modifications leading up the current form. People questioning evolution always mention the eye, well how about the ear? How the Uranus did all those little parts get themselves together? I SAID i understand small changes accumulate to bigger ones. I want specific examples, how did the hammer, the anvil, or the strirrup start, what about that spiral thing with the fluid and the hairs inside it? then you have to look up mammalian evolution - particularly the evolution of the therapsids. These show the evolution from reptiles to mammals. sadly the cochlear and so on are soft bodies, and soft bodies don't leave evidence in fossils, except under very special circumstances, so this info is probably lost forever. If we cant honestly identify the origin with some presiseness--- thats ok, just admit it. I'm not going to use it against you, like i said, even if we don't know, it doesn't proove anything, there is probably more complexity to the nature of evolution that we have braincells to compute. So you can either tell me or give me ambigous answers i'm used to. I don't care anymore, who knows why i'm even writing this. I believe that this is the topic of Dawkins' next book, but I am not too sure. If it turns out not to be, then you have an excellent book idea on your hands there. The evolution of many components occurs pretty far back in time, and alot of people might not know where to look for it. If nothing else I suggest you do a search on http://www.talkorigins.org - that is a brillant resource for evolution. BTW-- i don't remember there being advertisements before on this site--- we aren't going commercial are we? If the Corporate Monster traps this site in its webbs i'm going to leave forever--- ok not that you care about me but you do care about the morals of resisiting the Megalomaniac that we are building the way for. However i have faith in evolution that if we do all become slaves there will be a lack of balance that will snap the back of evil and make everything go extinct expept monera and the whole world will start all over again . . . . or we could try to change the direction of society before that happens. (i am exaggerating by the way, but i believe you know my point) feel free to post blike lots of money to pay for the server. The ads are basically there just to help pay for things, feel free to ignore them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 1) Download firefox 0.8 web browser from http://www.mozilla.org 2) Bathe in its glory for a few minutes 3) Recover your composure and install the "block images" and "remove object" extensions 4) Right-click on banners and choose "block images from [the server name]" to never see content from them again. 5) Enjoy ad-free, fully compliant tabbed browsing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainMan Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 BTW- The tiny bones in the ear used to be part of a jaw (if memory serves), and sensitiviy to vibrations turned out to be useful. Happy hunting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 BTW- The tiny bones in the ear used to be part of a jaw (if memory serves)' date=' and sensitiviy to vibrations turned out to be useful. Happy hunting![/quote'] basically yes. The reptilian jaw consists of three bones and the ear consists of one. The mammalian jaw however consists of one bone, and three in the ear, perhaps unsuprisingly. The evolution of the mammalian jaw and ear are coupled, with two primary benefits. First of all there is increased muscular control over the jaw, allowing for more complex chewing actions as we move towards the mammals. Also we see two of the bones having the joint pressure on them relieved and getting closer to the other bone in the ear. At one stage the therapsids actually have two jaw joints, the reptilian and the mammalian jaw joint. eventually the reptilian joint disappears and the bones complete their migration into the ear. I have a long essay on this at home and I will post a thread tonight. It goes into alot more, such as the opening out of the brain cavity and evolution from reptillian to mammalian teeth as well. fascinating stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 Part of the jaw huh, that makes sense. Cant wait to read that essay, also check into that Dawkins dude. Rad Ed-- what you mean about a book idea? As much as i hate money, or at least our system of managing it, is unfair, I am interested in making some to insulate and expand my freedom. Maybe also the LOTR concept. I've got to carry the burden of the corporate ring to destory it in the flames of mount doom . . . . . well i'll figure out how to deal with it somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 blast, I forgot to post it I was sorting out the network in my flat and it completely slipped my mind... I will try to remember today! the book idea is basically this: look at the various bits of the human body and talk about their origins. Things like the eyes would go way back, things like the jaw/ear less far back, and things like the modern human brain most recent (though it would be nescessary to go from early brains too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisy Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 I would suggest you read anything by Stephen Gould (sadly extinct) who if memory serves wrote "This Wonderful Life"?? But certainly DID write some very accessible evolutionary biology books (he and Dawkins had rather opposing views if I'm not mistaken but both were/are very eminent evolutionists). You can get into the whole neo-darwinism/classical darwinism thing but it's not my field really so I suggest you read Dawkins (who I once heard speak and on a purely personal level didn't like...my opinion only) and Gould. There's all sorts of stuff about "punctuated equilibrium" that I can't remember...lol. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainMan Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Look, if you want to know about evolution and evolutionary history, there is really no substitute to a good text book. Yeah, I know, they are big and require lots of time. That is sort of the point. All these popularized accounts of evolution will do little for you other than making you thjink you know more about evolution than you actually do. Go to the source... break down and buy a dmaned text! Used copies can be had fairly cheap now-a-days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 sadly the cochlear and so on are soft bodies, and soft bodies don't leave evidence in fossils, except under very special circumstances, so this info is probably lost forever. sadly still is the fact that the when things become fossils, it is a very rare case and it heavily relies on just the 'right' conditions in order for something to become a fossil. it may not matter if it's a leaf or a deceased animal, if the conditions aren't optimal, then no fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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