1 minute ago, CharonY said:

You can call them teenagers, yet they are elected politicians and big chunk of the electorate. It might make you feel better if you characterize them as powerless kids, but they are not.

I don’t think they are powerless, but I sure as hell think they could pick up a book and learn how to converse kindly with others instead of insisting on a racial superior complex

23 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The really depressing thing is that if anything it shows that this old ideology, which for a while was more associated with older, more conservative demographic, is now also attractive for kids (and more dominantly, male kids).

I feel that they are doing it because generally men are not as supported as women in areas such as mental health and such, though there are much better ways to express you need help rather than shitposting dank memes about how the ‘crusades were awesome.’

6 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

I don’t think they are powerless, but I sure as hell think they could pick up a book and learn how to converse kindly with others instead of insisting on a racial superior complex

And again, that is not a kid's problem only.

7 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

I feel that they are doing it because generally men are not as supported as women in areas such as mental health and such, though there are much better ways to express you need help rather than shitposting dank memes about how the ‘crusades were awesome.’

I think this an often-used and frankly useless argument (and frequently used as an excuse), similar to the lonely men epidemic claim. There is some truth to the claim, but it is less that they are not supported, but rather that they build barriers themselves. Now there are real issues but at the same point the affected folks are also fairly resilient to improvement

This attitude seems associated with a toxic view on manliness thus prohibiting them to seek help when they need it. That being said, these racist attitudes are not a matter of mental health in the first place. There are many factors ranging from true racialized ideologies to disenfranchisement and the all to common search for a convenient scapegoat. Also of note, kids nowadays dislike picking up a book and read. But this is going seriously off-topic.

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

And again, that is not a kid's problem only.

I never claimed it was, the examples are giving though are that of teenagers.

Just now, Sohan Lalwani said:

I never claimed it was, the examples are giving though are that of teenagers.

The examples that I have given though are that of teenagers*

6 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I think this an often-used and frankly useless argument (and frequently used as an excuse), similar to the lonely men epidemic claim. There is some truth to the claim, but it is less that they are not supported, but rather that they build barriers themselves. Now there are real issues but at the same point the affected folks are also fairly resilient to improvement

This attitude seems associated with a toxic view on manliness thus prohibiting them to seek help when they need it. That being said, these racist attitudes are not a matter of mental health in the first place. There are many factors ranging from true racialized ideologies to disenfranchisement and the all to common search for a convenient scapegoat. Also of note, kids nowadays dislike picking up a book and read. But this is going seriously off-topic.

Speaking emotionally and generally, men are not as well supported as women. In many societies men are expected to be tough and bread - winners, it’s rather an issue of societal pressures and expectations rather than self induced isolation. That, I fundamentally agree with.

However, I do agree, some people if they are constantly lonely attempt to find others with a common interests, hence likely why you came to this forum in the first place.

Anyway let’s return to the main topic

7 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Speaking emotionally and generally, men are not as well supported as women.

Supported in what? Not reproductive choice, that's for sure! With mental health issues? By whom? Social media? The medical establishment? The law? Government organizations? Show me.

9 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

some of the shit they spew out is largely socially unacceptable for someone that young with no life experience.

...while the majority of spewed shit is socially acceptable because it's coming from a 79-year old fractious toddler with lots pf criminal experience.

13 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

In many societies men are expected to be tough and bread - winners, it’s rather an issue of societal pressures and expectations rather than self induced isolation.

Those are the societies in which men thrive and women don't. Men get all discombobulated when women insist on pulling their own weight and demand autonomy.

Just now, Peterkin said:

Supported in what? Not reproductive choice, that's for sure! With mental health issues? By whom? Social media? The medical establishment? The law? Government organizations? Show me.

Mental health issues yes, generally speaking. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) consistently report that men die by suicide at over 3.5 times the rate of women in the U.S. This is quite common knowledge, I don’t want to get into a fully fledged arguement on abortion either please.

“Men are often the silent sufferers of mental illness. Their pain goes unrecognized because they’re taught that expressing vulnerability is weakness. That silence is killing them.”
— Mental Health America

Suicide Prevention

Facts About Suicide

This page provides facts about suicide.

3 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

...while the majority of spewed shit is socially acceptable because it's coming from a 79-year old fractious toddler with lots pf criminal experience.

It’s not just adults, it’s teenagers as well. The common factor is political brainwashing

Just now, Sohan Lalwani said:

Mental health issues yes, generally speaking. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) consistently report that men die by suicide at over 3.5 times the rate of women in the U.S. This is quite common knowledge, I don’t want to get into a fully fledged arguement on abortion either please.

We have talked about this in multiple places on this forum and to a certain degree that statistic is misleading. The suicide attempt rate is roughly the same (some statistics have slightly higher attempts with women). But the methods are different. Men tend to use more violent and effective methods such as guns, whereas women prefer poisoning. The latter has a high failure (i.e. survival) rate.

The second part is more relevant. Men are are less likely to seek help as it is considered unmanly. This squarely falls into the toxic masculinity concept (i.e. concepts in masculinity that end up being harmful). A big issue is that men also don't like to talk about that. Here women have the "advantage" of being assumed to be "weaker" . However, they obviously face issues in other areas especially related to bodily autonomy.

Just now, CharonY said:

We have talked about this in multiple places on this forum and to a certain degree that statistic is misleading. The suicide attempt rate is roughly the same (some statistics have slightly higher attempts with women). But the methods are different. Men tend to use more violent and effective methods such as guns, whereas women prefer poisoning. The latter has a high failure (i.e. survival) rate.

The second part is more relevant. Men are are less likely to seek help as it is considered unmanly. This squarely falls into the toxic masculinity concept (i.e. concepts in masculinity that end up being harmful). A big issue is that men also don't like to talk about that. Here women have the "advantage" of being assumed to be "weaker" . However, they obviously face issues in other areas especially related to bodily autonomy.

I need statistics or a proper counterclaim to say such is misleading. Men are not just more successful at suicide due to method, they are also significantly more likely to die by suicide overall. That pattern cannot be fully explained by method alone. It reflects deeper systemic problems in how society handles men's mental health. Men are less likely to seek help, less likely to be diagnosed with depression, and more likely to be socially isolated. Focusing only on the method distracts from these root causes and can obscure the urgent need for better outreach, support, and de-stigmatization of mental health care for men

In my opinion as well utilizing toxic masculinity as the sole reason of why this occurs is not very nuanced, such things such as ‘toxic femininity’ also contribute to such decline.

Anyway to get back on track, here are some screenshots given in what I am talking about

In case you don’t know what the “88” means it’s a reference to Nazi germany

Just now, Sohan Lalwani said:

I need statistics or a proper counterclaim to say such is misleading. Men are not just more successful at suicide due to method, they are also significantly more likely to die by suicide overall.

Conduct a quick search on this forum, I have mentioned relevant papers a few times. But that is a well known observation and you can find it referred to as gender paradox in suicide. If you are actually interested in reading on that that I can provide you some lit.

2 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

nyway to get back on track, here are some screenshots given in what I am talking about

Why, what is the relevance of stupid kids? I thought we established that the issue is folks in power.

6 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Focusing only on the method distracts from these root causes and can obscure the urgent need for better outreach, support, and de-stigmatization of mental health care for men

This is part of the toxic masculinity argument. There is a need to define healthy version which doesn't prevent to be being themselves but also allowing self-care. Current version, especially those propagated in the manosphere are leading to detrimental result, hence the "toxic" moniker.

Edit: and one more thing at issue. Often the research in mental health has been led with men used as the norm (similar to other aspects of health research). As a consequence, understanding of what normative behaviour is and where mental health issues begin is somewhat skewed. It also impacts diagnoses to some traits like autism or ADHD.

It is not that long ago when it became clear that gendered research is necessary with larger and more diverse cohorts. Of course the current US government is restricting this type of research.

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

Conduct a quick search on this forum, I have mentioned relevant papers a few times. But that is a well known observation and you can find it referred to as gender paradox in suicide. If you are actually interested in reading on that that I can provide you some lit.

It’s fine, thanks for the offer.

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

Why, what is the relevance of stupid kids? I thought we established that the issue is folks in power.

It’s a combination of both

6 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Mental health issues yes, generally speaking. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) consistently report that men die by suicide at over 3.5 times the rate of women in the U.S.

Does that study illustrate a direct link between the availability of help and the suicide rate? Or is it that more men choose to escape their problems, while more women stick around out of consideration for their families, or that men are brave enough to go through with it, and woman chicken out, or men just have greater access to guns?

Do you really think this is a good excuse for driving a van into a crowd or shooting 17 random people in a shopping mall? Actually, I don't know why you brought this up at all. Is it relevant?

6 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

It reflects deeper systemic problems in how society handles men's mental health.

And who has been in charge of running society for the lat 7000 years?

6 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Their pain goes unrecognized because they’re taught that expressing vulnerability is weakness. That silence is killing them.

And that manliness and silence is imposed on them.... by whom, exactly? Are they taking their cues from women or other men? They'd rather beat their wives, children and dogs than admit a weakness or failure. Can anyone support a person who rejects support?

And what's this got to do with fascism?

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

Does that study illustrate a direct link between the availability of help and the suicide rate? Or is it that more men choose to escape their problems, while more women stick around out of consideration for their families, or that men are brave enough to go through with it, and woman chicken out, or men just have greater access to guns?

Who says men are not also considering this? Also, please provide statistics that men have a higher access to guns than women in America.

2 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

And who has been in charge of running society for the lat 7000 years?

You are aware that there is more to America globally yes? Saying society as a whole has historically always been run by men is blatantly incorrect.

3 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

And that manliness and silence is imposed on them.... by whom, exactly? Are they taking their cues from women or other men? They'd rather beat their wives, children and dogs than admit a weakness or failure. Can anyone support a person who rejects support?

And what's this got to do with fascism?

Holy generalization are you saying that men with mental health issues resort to beating their wives the majority of the time ☠️

Fascist ideologies often appeal to individuals, especially men, who feel powerless, humiliated, or dislocated in society. Poor mental health, including depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, and identity crises, can make people more susceptible to extremist worldviews that offer. Fascism ALSO, often glorifies a hypermasculine ideal: aggression, dominance, discipline, and strength. Men who feel emasculated by modern societal changes (like feminism, economic shifts, or declining traditional male roles) may gravitate toward fascism as a way to reclaim a lost sense of power or pride. Poor mental health can exacerbate this yearning for control or structure.

Just now, Peterkin said:

Does that study illustrate a direct link between the availability of help and the suicide rate? Or is it that more men choose to escape their problems, while more women stick around out of consideration for their families, or that men are brave enough to go through with it, and woman chicken out, or men just have greater access to guns?

That is just a commonly cited statistic without any more in-depth analyses. But as mentioned before, women tend to attempt suicide at rates at up to 4 times that of men. One should also add that the also mentioned use of drug and poison also has folks speculating whether suicide by women could be undercounted. Some overdoses might be ruled as accidental, especially if the dosage was not massive an/or in the absence of other indications of suicide.

There might be more explanation for the so-called gender paradox, but in my mind the means of suicide is the most compelling one.

5 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Can anyone support a person who rejects support?

This is actually an area of active research and the short answer seems to be yes, but it takes time, effort and money. Which is not saying much, I know. But part of that is active outreach as folks tend to cut off their social circle and men are generally more comfortable with not being in touch (or to put it differently, they tend to spend time to ensure that they remain in touch).

3 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That is just a commonly cited statistic without any more in-depth analyses. But as mentioned before, women tend to attempt suicide at rates at up to 4 times that of men. One should also add that the also mentioned use of drug and poison also has folks speculating whether suicide by women could be undercounted.

According to the "Cams-Care" site which is designated for such issues like suicide, it states women are 1.5 times more than men not 4, also there are 3.3 deaths for men relative to one women in suicide

However, men are considered to have a 3.5-4x higher death rate, perhaps you misread the statistics?

https://cams-care.com/resources/educational-content/the-gender-paradox-of-suicide/

7 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That is just a commonly cited statistic without any more in-depth analyses.

Again, I need some reasoning with this.

13 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

You are aware that there is more to America globally yes? Saying society as a whole has historically always been run by men is blatantly incorrect.

I dare you to support that with historical facts and statistics. It would also interest me to know who you think prevents support for men's mental health issues.

7 minutes ago, CharonY said:

But part of that is active outreach as folks tend to cut off their social circle and men are generally more comfortable with not being in touch

ie cutting themselves off, like you said. Plus lack of resources - which besets all branches of medicine in the US. well-off professionals can afford a shrink, but they're not fuelling the Tea Party, are they? The endemic isolation of men with emotional problems is worse in Asia, I understand, where the cult of masculinity is even more deeply embedded in the culture, while Europe is making some progress.

But, again, what's it got to do with the radicalization of boys, detaining senators who have questions or the rise of fascism?

Edited June 17Jun 17 by Peterkin

7 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I dare you to prove that.

How so? In education, science, literature?

Just now, Sohan Lalwani said:

According to the "Cams-Care" site which is designated for such issues like suicide, it states women are 1.5 times more than men not 4, also there are 3.3 deaths for men relative to one women in suicide

However, men are considered to have a 3.5-4x higher death rate, perhaps you misread the statistics?

https://cams-care.com/resources/educational-content/the-gender-paradox-of-suicide/

Nope, I was thinking about a couple of studies which looked at suicide methods. The reported frequency differences was usually between 1.5-4 ish. And older paper by Tsirigotis et al. (Med Sci Monit. 2011 Aug 1;17(8):PH65–PH70.) mentioned about 3 fold, for example.

6 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

ie cutting themselves off. OK, you've circled back.

As to relevance?

It is not necessarily a cutting off, just a weaker social structure in general. As to relevance it is a direct response to.

25 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Can anyone support a person who rejects support?

As I said, trends in mental health try to address exactly that. I.e. attempts to strengthening bonds. I have heard of initiatives to get folks at risk to get them involved in activities for example. But the bigger point to me at least is that the sample mentioning of higher suicide rates means little in isolation. Rather, an analysis of the underlying reasons are more appropriate as opposed to an overinterpretation of a single data point. I have only read a little bit mostly because I got into a discussion with a clinical psychologist a long while ago, but even I am aware that there is a huge body of lit to sift through.

3 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Nope, I was thinking about a couple of studies which looked at suicide methods. The reported frequency differences was usually between 1.5-4 ish. And older paper by Tsirigotis et al. (Med Sci Monit. 2011 Aug 1;17(8):PH65–PH70.) mentioned about 3 fold, for example.

Its an older paper as you stated, the majority of modern statistics points to a 1-5-2x rate.

1 minute ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Its an older paper as you stated, the majority of modern statistics points to a 1-5-2x rate.

That is not how statistics work. You might refer to a particular data set (e.g. CDC).

7 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That is not how statistics work. You might refer to a particular data set (e.g. CDC).

Older statistics may be more flawed or not have as accurate data comparative to newer studies

28 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Holy generalization are you saying that men with mental health issues resort to beating their wives the majority of the time

I don't know about a majority. I know domestic violence is prevalent in dysfunctional societies and I've seen up close how it happens.

6 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

How so? In education, science, literature?

with historical facts and statistics. You can use examples from any discipline, but the only decisive one is government. Who's been in charge most of that time?

11 minutes ago, CharonY said:

As to relevance it is a direct response to.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant the relevance of suicide rates and the relative availability of social support by gender to fascism.

Not meaning to be rude, but i have to go somewhere in the morning and need a few hours' sleep.

Edited June 17Jun 17 by Peterkin

9 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

with historical facts and statistics. You can use examples from any discipline, but the only decisive one is government. Who's been in charge most of that time?

Relative to science generally and in England, Rosalind Franklin played a crucial role in understanding the structure of DNA. Although she did not receive as much recognition in her lifetime, her X-ray images were key to identifying the double helix shape, which transformed genetics and biology.

From Italy, Rita Levi-Montalcini discovered nerve growth factor, a protein essential for the development and survival of nerve cells. She won a Nobel Prize in medicine in 1986 for this discovery, which advanced our understanding of neurological diseases.

In the United States, Barbara McClintock made pioneering discoveries in genetics, including the discovery of "jumping genes," which showed that DNA is more dynamic than previously thought. Her work won her the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1983.

Women have also made major contributions in fields beyond biology and physics. For example, Chien-Shiung Wu, a Chinese-American physicist, conducted important experiments that disproved a fundamental law in physics, changing how scientists understood atomic behavior.

Even in ancient times, women like Hypatia of Alexandria, a mathematician and astronomer in Egypt, taught and advanced knowledge in geometry and philosophy. Though historical records are limited, her influence was strong enough to be remembered through centuries.

Relative to mathematics , in the 18th century, Émilie du Châtelet from France translated and explained Isaac Newton’s work on calculus and physics, making it accessible to wider audiences and influencing Enlightenment science.

In the 19th century, Sofia Kovalevskaya, a Russian mathematician, became the first woman in modern Europe to earn a doctorate in mathematics. She made significant advances in analysis and partial differential equations, and she was a respected university professor in Sweden.

American mathematician Emmy Noether, often called the mother of modern algebra, revolutionized abstract algebra and theoretical physics in the early 20th century. Her theorem linking symmetries and conservation laws remains fundamental in physics today.

In the mid-20th century, Mary Cartwright from England contributed to chaos theory and nonlinear differential equations, work that later influenced fields as diverse as meteorology and engineering.

Contemporary women mathematicians include Manjul Bhargava, though male, often credited with promoting women in math, and more directly, women like Maryam Mirzakhani from Iran. Mirzakhani was the first woman to win the prestigious Fields Medal, mathematics’ highest honor, for her work in geometry and dynamical systems.

According to UNESCO data, as of the early 2020s, women earn roughly 30 to 50 percent of bachelor’s degrees in mathematics worldwide, depending on the country. For example, in the United States, women earned about 43 percentof undergraduate math degrees in recent years. In Eastern European countries, that percentage is often higher.

12 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I don't know about a majority. I know domestic violence is prevalent in dysfunctional societies and I've seen up close how it happens.

My significant condolences, no person should ever have to see nor experience such. I am here if you wish to “vent” =)

27 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Older statistics may be more flawed or not have as accurate data comparative to newer studies

No, the numbers you cited I am pretty sure are not from a study but are directly pulled from the CDC database. It does not meant that they are better or worse, but they are just a data collection as such and are not a study in itself. The latter often have specific cohorts or have some further analyses attached. In the study I mentioned they focused on a cohort of folks who actually verifiable attempted suicide, and investigated the means they used, for example.

28 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant the relevance of suicide rates and the relative availability of social support by gender to fascism.

Oh, you are right, things went off topic a fair bit. But the answer to that is that yet again, folks, again have co-opted an issue and use it as an excuse for being racist/fascist. Specifically, it is a common tactic to avoid accountability and place the blame somewhere else.

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

No, the numbers you cited I am pretty sure are not from a study but are directly pulled from the CDC database. It does not meant that they are better or worse, but they are just a data collection as such and are not a study in itself. The latter often have specific cohorts or have some further analyses attached. In the study I mentioned they focused on a cohort of folks who actually verifiable attempted suicide, and investigated the means they used, for example.

Interesting, having knowledge on not just how many attempts happened but also details like the methods used or the circumstances around them does make a difference in understanding and ultimately preventing suicide.

I do concede partially.

9 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Oh, you are right, things went off topic a fair bit. But the answer to that is that yet again, folks, again have co-opted an issue and use it as an excuse for being racist/fascist. Specifically, it is a common tactic to avoid accountability and place the blame somewhere else.

Are you referring to someone?

Been mostly AFK, but IIRC this vast digression turned on whether or not comparisons to Nazi Germany were warranted. So it looks like that was thoroughly discussed and the OP question also answered - US Senators must follow an approved script in questioning the executive branch or else. Somehow I thought this thread would be a short one, concluding with "was anyone expecting anything else from the 47 regime?"

What's really disturbing is that giving a senator the SA treatment is one of the LEAST awful things the Great Turnip administration has done. Which means that, again, theatrics are being used to distract people while they chip away at the rule of law and global alliances formed over the last century.