Acme

I'm certain you can find exceptions where it has helped, but one can always find exceptions. As a general rule though, its bad to base ones decisions on cherry picked examples. We are talking about the communication of science no? We aren't talking about only trying to convince a young Ben that he is wrong, we are talking about how do we convince a large segment of society that they are wrong. When an individual like Richard Dawkins or Lawrence Krauss speak, they aren't talking only to a "Ben", they are talking to thousands or millions of people. For every "Ben" they convince, they turn away thousands more and give ammo to people like Ken Ham to use. So is it worth convincing one "Ben" at the expense of isolating thousands and doing far more damage to your cause?

As I pointed out, Ben used ridicule quite a lot in his writings and those writings meant for the general populace. The outright rejection of science for creationism or any other religious tenet, folklore, or such other matters that fly in the face of logic and reason is ridiculous and therefore worthy of ridicule. Ridicule is a time honored means of public instruction from Aristophanes to Mark Twain to George Carlin, and ever shall it remain so.

While Moontanman might risk losing his friend if he ridiculed her, what kind of friend is she for her treatment of him? None much I say. He may chose to ridicule her or not to her face in deference to the two of them specifically, but in a public forum such as this the ridicule is just and due.

Even peace may be purchased at too high a price. ~ Ben Franklin

 

Acme, on 20 Feb 2014 - 2:50 PM, said:

 

 

So to Ben at least, ridicule of himself was helpful. Moreover he employed it in many instances of his writing and no few of those directed toward religion and/or religious tenets. If you wish, I can cite a few examples related to science.

That's ok, but most people are not intellectual so it's not going to be a very effective tool in significantly altering the global or national statistics in favour of a scientifically held viewpoint. It merely serves as possible amusement for some of the scientifically-literate bystanders.

 

A perfect example of an intellectual for which such a device would work ...he's not representative of the vast majority of people.

 

Keeping in mind he was a boy at the time, which is of course not say he wasn't an intellectual boy. Nevertheless chadyn make a blanket assertion without equivocation and I meant to counter it in support of Phi for all's qualified assertion. Moreover Ben didn't simply write for intellectuals, he wrote for common people. Some other apt quotes while I find a source for his response when church leaders opposed lightening rods on churches, inspite of bell-ringers suffering a high casualty rate from lightening strikes.

Edit: Ooooppssss. Forgot those devices of Ben's.

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"Those things that hurt, instruct."

"To follow by faith alone is to follow blindly."

... Ridicule is the use of mockery and derision, which will only serve to inflict resentment and anger.

...My brother, thinking it might turn to account, encouraged me, and put me on composing occasional ballads. One was called "The Lighthouse Tragedy," and contained an account of the drowning of Captain Worthilake with his two daughters. The other was a sailor's song on the taking of taking of Teach (or Blackbeard) the pirate. They were wretched stuff, in the Grub-Street ballad style; and when they were printed he sent me about the town to sell them. The first sold wonderfully, the event being recent, having made a great noise. This flattered my vanity: but my father discouraged me by ridiculing my performances and telling me verse-makers were generally beggars. So I escaped being a poet, most probably a very bad one. ...

source: http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/autobiography/page05.htm

So to Ben at least, ridicule of himself was helpful. Moreover he employed it in many instances of his writing and no few of those directed toward religion and/or religious tenets. If you wish, I can cite a few examples related to science.

I...uhh....erhm.... am adrift in paraphrase and don't really know what I'm talking aboat.

I am disillusioned enough to know that no person's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine INFORMATION to make them really know what they're talking about. ~ H. P. LoveCRAFT

My apologies, Acme, for not replying quicker and for my suggesting tawny crazy ants don’t bite; my intention was not that they didn’t bite but rather they didn’t bite themselves to counteract the fire ant toxin.

No worries. I did not mean to suggest they bit themselves. In the article Charon linked to it says "Following exposure to S. invicta venom, N. fulva applies abdominal exocrine gland secretions to its cuticle." As they don't specify how the application is accomplished I wouldn't presume if it's done with the mandibles, legs, antennae or whatever. I do note however they specifically refer to crazy ants as having venom. >> "Further, formic acid, from N. fulva venom, ..."

So again to my speculation about N. fulva bites and how they may incorporate their abdominally secreted 'venom' with said bite. I earlier suggested they might bite (a victim) and then apply the venom to the bite site, but in retrospect I'd also suggest/speculate that perhaps they rub their mandibles into the secretions first and then bite. Just thinking out loud. Interesting stuff to be sure.

...

You must tell me more. [Acme]

 

I really love the Wikipedia link to Polynesian navigation .. Give me more.. It will help me with this thread of

 

" Seeking a better future for the human endeavour , as here we are poised on our coastal shores, wanting to go somewhere , but not sure where or how to go there? "

 

Mike

I wonder if you have the KEY to get us off this Island to New Horizons ? ACME

Sorry for the delay Mike... life intervened. Not sure what more I have. On the Polynesians I seem to recall hearing they took something of a backward view of land/sea from that of continent dwellers such that their equivalent of an island would be a lake. Moreover, they seem generally only to want to leave an island in order to get to another island rather than to undertake an adventure to new horizons as your model/metaphor proposes.

Re-reading my link I found this quote related to the above insomuch as Polynesians were not aspiring to some greater goal.

...

Experimental research

Another view was presented by Andrew Sharp who challenged the heroic vision hypothesis, asserting instead that Polynesian maritime expertise was severely limited in the field of exploration and that as a result the settlement of Polynesia had been the result of luck, random island sightings, and drifting, rather than as organized voyages of colonization. Thereafter the oral knowledge passed down for generations allowed for eventual mastery of traveling between known locations.[28] Sharp's reassessment caused a huge amount of controversy and led to a stalemate between the romantic and the skeptical views.[7]

While other research seems to counter the limited maritime expertise to some degree it does not appear to counter my proposition that Polynesians were interested only in island living.

For an interesting take on the hows, whys, and wherefores of Western civilization taking a different path from more-or-less the same starting point -say island(s)- as the rest of the peopled world, I recommend Guns, Germs, and Steel. I have not read the book, but watched the PBS show of the same name. Luck is as luck does and the best-laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley. Bon voyage!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies is a 1997 transdisciplinary nonfiction book by Jared Diamond, professor of geography and physiology at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA). In 1998, it won the Pulitzer Prize for general non-fiction and the Aventis Prize for Best Science Book. A documentary based on the book, and produced by the National Geographic Society, was broadcast on PBS in July 2005.[1]

 

The book attempts to explain why Eurasian civilizations (including North Africa) have survived and conquered others, while arguing against the idea that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual, moral or inherent genetic superiority.

...

 

Alas the vitamins & supplements are about on par with the Cadbury chocolate, which arguably contains antioxidants. People are as people do and there is no substitute for well-founded education and self control when it comes to good health.

 

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253

Annals of Internal Medicine

Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements

Most people don't have the "well-founded" education and self control you have and you assume they have.

 

Obesity is getting worse. Look around you and see how huge people become, because they are alway hungry. Something needs to be done. Maybe invent appetite suppressants and add them to our precious processed foods, so people eat what their body needs and not more. I confess I carry around an extra 20 lbs, just because I cannot lose that weight, because to do so means I will need to cut my food consumption in half, and even eating HEALTHY food is also too much fun for me.

 

You cannot compare vitamin and mineral supplements with food that is engineered to be so appealing that many people cannot resist eating in excess. No doctor will prescribe candy to cure anything.

...

CVS should remove junk foods from the check stand and replace them with healthy snacks.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I did not mean to imply that people -in general- have well-founded education about diet and health, rather that every effort to convey that education is worthwhile. Toward that end I think shows like Dr. Oz are helpful for adults/parents and instruction on nutrition in schools and kids TV shows for the tikes. The food processors and sellers -such as CV- are not on the side of our health regardless of their propaganda. They are on the side of money. The fatter we are, the fatter their wallets are.

The issue of self-control in consumption is a broader problem than just food, as people expect their wants to be filled and filled now. This has become something of a birthright in the Western world beginning after WWII and I see no easy path to breaking that nut. Perhaps when we-all start running out o' stuff, we-all will start doing without stuff. :shrug:

... snip

If you look around the world, certainly up through human history, it is interesting that much of human society grew up around the coast or where great rivers made there way to the sea . It is also very interesting that the coast often looks like a section out of a fractal image , where looking at closer grain a similar complex image is seen .

A coastline more than looks like a fractal, it is a fractal; that is to say a coastline has a fractional dimension. Measure its length with ever smaller rulers and it gets longer and longer and longer wheras the area it bounds remains static.

Well, what I really came for was to post an image of a Polynesian navigation aid. It has a flavor of your art Mike, and at the same time illustrates that there is no one model leading from -or to- an island. Models are as models do.

source: Polynesian Navigation @ Wiki >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_navigation

Never join a group whose symbol is a guy nailed to a piece of wood. ~ George Carlin

There is no convincing a true believer, but here's a site dedicated to the proposition that it never hurts -too much- to try. Keep in mind it's fear they want to evoke in you/us. One person with courage is a majority ~ T. Jefferson

An Index to Creationist Claims >> http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

Creationist claims are numerous and varied, so it is often difficult to track down information on any given claim. Plus, creationists constantly come up with new claims which need addressing. This site attempts, as much as possible, to make it easy to find rebuttals and references from the scientific community to any and all of the various creationist claims. It is updated frequently; see the What's New page for the latest changes.

 

Since most creationism is folklore, the claims are organized in an outline format following that of Stith Thompson's Motif-Index of Folk-Literature. Sections CA through CG deal with claims against conventional science, and sections CH through CJ contain claims about creationism itself.

...

There is no indication that the crazy ant bites anything, let alone themselves, it would seem they simply smear themselves with their own acid, thus counteracting the alkaline produced by their natural enemies.

 

cross posted.

I just gave a reference saying otherwise, regardless of whether or not they bite Fire Ants. Did you miss that, or do you find fault with it?

The difference between venom and poison is, venom is a poison that is injected via a bite or sting and a poison is ingested; so, yes the term is indeed probably misapplied in this case.

Well, in regard the Tawny ant, while they lack a stinger, they do use the formic acid as a poison in attacks and as the definition says a venom is a poison 'transmitted by a bite or sting' and if they bite and then transmit the formic acid from abdomen to bite site, then I reapply your misapply.

Biting and medical implications to people, livestock and wildlife: Tawny crazy ants do not have stingers. In place of a stinger, worker ants possess an acidopore on the end of the gaster (abdomen), which can excrete chemicals for defense or attack. They are capable of biting, and when bitten, they cause a minute pain that quickly fades.

I wonder if a human victim of Fire Ant attack would find any relief rolling about in Stinging Nettles?

Found a neat paper about how tawny crazy ants (Nylanderia fulva) are able to take on and displace the aggressive fire ants (Solenopsis invicta). Apparently crazy ants somehow use formic acid that they produce themselves to somehow detoxify the strong venom produced by fire ants.

While the crazy ants are now starting to displace the fire ants in the US, the arms race between those two species probably originated in South America where there habitats are overlapping.

 

Article

Interesting. Particularly in that your link says formic acid is the detoxifying agent when formic acid is a common toxin among ants. In fact formic acid takes its name from the Latin name for ant, formica.

Formic acid is also the toxin that gives Stinging Nettle its sting.

resource: http://hubpages.com/hub/Formic-Acid-Dangers-and-Uses-in-Nature-and-in-Humans

In terms of the ants themselves the term venom is possibly a misnomer, in that, for them its a simple poison; perhaps it maybe simply a case of acid verses an alkaline?

I don't think venom is misapplied in this case.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/venom

venom (vĕn′əm)

 

Any of various poisonous substances secreted by certain snakes, spiders, scorpions, and insects and transmitted to a victim by a bite or sting. Venoms are highly concentrated fluids that typically consist of dozens or hundreds of powerful enzymes, peptides, and smaller organic compounds. These compounds target and disable specific chemicals in the victim, damaging cellular and organ system function. Snake venoms, for example, contain substances that block platelet aggregation (causing bleeding) and that prevent the release of acetylcholine by nerve endings (causing muscle paralysis). Many substances contained in venoms are under investigation for use as pharmaceuticals.

...The sting of fire ants contains alkaloids and some proteins, but no formic acid.

I'm no chemist so I'm in no position to judge the Ph here.

http://fair-use.org/bertrand-russell/the-principles-of-mathematics/

Russell's The Principles of Mathematics seems a reasonable foundational menu even today. Bon appétit!

I really didn't want to mention this, but I currently work at CVS. I have straightened those isles for months and I can personally tell you that they have PLENTY of healthy food. They have a whole isle for nutritional shakes, and another isle for diabetic shakes and snacks.

Not to mention all the vitamins and dietary supplements they also have. ...

Always some contradiction in your preface. I don't want to mention this but... I don't want to brag but...

But I digress...on to the nut of the matter.

Alas the vitamins & supplements are about on par with the Cadbury chocolate, which arguably contains antioxidants. People are as people do and there is no substitute for well-founded education and self control when it comes to good health.

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253

Annals of Internal Medicine

Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements

Three articles in this issue address the role of vitamin and mineral supplements for preventing the occurrence or progression of chronic diseases. First, Fortmann and colleagues (1) systematically reviewed trial evidence to update the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force recommendation on the efficacy of vitamin supplements for primary prevention in community-dwelling adults with no nutritional deficiencies. After reviewing 3 trials of multivitamin supplements and 24 trials of single or paired vitamins that randomly assigned more than 400 000 participants, the authors concluded that there was no clear evidence of a beneficial effect of supplements on all-cause mortality, cardiovascular disease, or cancer.

...

Other reviews and guidelines that have appraised the role of vitamin and mineral supplements in primary or secondary prevention of chronic disease have consistently found null results or possible harms (5–6). Evidence involving tens of thousands of people randomly assigned in many clinical trials shows that β-carotene, vitamin E, and possibly high doses of vitamin A supplements increase mortality (6–7) and that other antioxidants (6), folic acid and B vitamins (8), and multivitamin supplements (1, 5) have no clear benefit.

...

Despite sobering evidence of no benefit or possible harm, use of multivitamin supplements increased among U.S. adults from 30% between 1988 to 1994 to 39% between 2003 to 2006, while overall use of dietary supplements increased from 42% to 53% (9). ...

While an interesting article, I am not as interested in the releases the dog feels, but rather, what, if anything, the release we feel.

Here's a slide show of 27 benefits humans gain by grooming/petting and otherwise interacting with their domestic pets. I have quoted a caption from just one slide; full banana at the link. While I don't see any references to specific studies the reference to cortisol and serotonin suggest such studies have been done.

http://pets.webmd.com/ss/slideshow-pets-improve-your-health

Pets Are Natural Mood Enhancers

 

It only takes a few minutes with a dog or cat or watching fish swim to feel less anxious and less stressed. Your body actually goes through physical changes in that time that make a difference in your mood. The level of cortisol, a hormone associated with stress, is lowered. And the production of serotonin, a chemical associated with well-being, is increased. Reducing stress saves your body wear and tear.

Yes, that helps to find x3 (I made an approach with abcde, finding c)

But i still miss imatfaal's next steps.(though he seems to get it right).

? x3 = x4-1 ?

? x3 = x2+2 ?

I better let imatfaal make his own clarification as I took a slightly different approach. So what I did was with C found to be 58 I then reasoned since A & B are the smallest two and D & E the largest two, then C is the middle weight. So any pairing to give 121 has to have both terms greater than 58. There are only 2 possibilities: 60+61 & 59+62. But, if you let E=61, then E + C = 119 and that weight's not on the list, so the answer is D=59 and E=62. Similarly I found A & B. Hope that's helpful; thanks for playing.

 

 

 

54,56,58,59,62

 

 

 

 

I really hope that's right

 

method below

 

 

 

 

 

you can set up a system of 5 simultaneous equations with 5 unknowns - which is solvable

 

weights from x1->x5 getting heavier

 

x1+x2 = 110

x4+x5 = 121

x3 = x4-1

x3 = x2+2

4(x1+x2+x3+x4+x5) = 1156

 

 

 

Correct! Implicit in your approach is that one has to realize the lightest pair-weight must be from the lightest 2 pails and the heaviest pair-weight from the heaviest 2 pails. Nice work and thanks for playing.

Hope this is new here; didn't see it scanning the category.

5 pails of water are weighed two at a time in each possible pairing producing the following list. What is the weight, in pounds, of each of the 5 pails of water?

110 lbs.
112 lbs.
113 lbs.
114 lbs.
115 lbs.
116 lbs.
117 lbs.
118 lbs.
120 lbs.
121 lbs.

Oh, I just realized what's going on. Sorry about that; that screwed up all registrations over the past day or two as well.

 

Short version: we moved our email over to a new server (which the forums will move to soon), and IPB was trying to send email through the old server. I had to prod it a bit to get it to send email through the right system.

Curse you Mr. Wizard! Just admit it's a worthless gimcrack we can all do without.

Edit: speeling air

Why do you need notifying? You virtually live here.

True dat. More to the point, who needs that 'feature' anyway? It's no more efficient -arguably less- to check your e-mail as opposed to check the site. The less efficient being if you do have an e-mail notice and want to reply you end up here anyway and have essentially wasted a little bit of your precious life checking for notification that you need to waste a bit more life some place else. Just one more gizmo and doodad forum writers throw on to make their product look better to buyers. Doesn't matter if it doesn't work either because after all by the time that becomes apparent you already have made the sale.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to check my e-mail to see if notification is working to see if anyone replied to this notification problem yet. Five steps closer to death.

I was reading an artical in the New York Times Archive:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/science/a-lab-grown-burger-gets-a-taste-test.html?_r=0. It was about some scientists who "grew" some cow muscle, and then it got cooked.

 

Is there anything "wrong" with this. I can't think of any, so that is why I am asking this question.

Other than being prohibitively expensive, I see nothing 'wrong' with it. We're herbivores evolved to eat both meat and plant.

It will also suppress the horrible industrial procedure of growing and killing animals.

You betcha! Better we get back to the wonderful individual practice of butchering our own meat in the yard. Damn civilization and modern practices!!

I don't want to change the subject, but I'm concerned my post will do so.

Then why post it?

Fat, oils, and protein are too rich in calories, and digesting protein makes our blood acid which leeches calcium from our bones, causing osteoporosis. Thus, IMO we should eat vegetables exclusively or only rarely eat meat, for health reasons.

I know that almost everyone will argue otherwise. Since this thread is not about eating vegan, I will not respond to arguments.

So you will provoke an argument and then not defend the provocation? Nice work!

OK to introduce the "yuck factor" as we all seem to think the above is fine - how would the respondents feel if the initial seed cells (none of which are eventually consumed) that are reproduced and latticed in vitro were human? Let's ignore potential prion diseases (vCJD etc) and assume for the ethical argument that there would be no negative health implications. Bloated Plutocrat Fois Gras anyone? Roast Leg of Insurance Salesman? A delicate Carpaccio of Lonely Long Distance Runner?

Soylent Green is people!!!

Or if you prefer, Johnathan Swift's modest proposal to eat children. "I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricasie, or a ragoust. "

Thanks Sensei. appreciate your post, and would like to pick up on two points from it:

 

1. You say "If you would do research before posting, and talk about only things that you know, you wouldn't have reputation points like you have....you wouldn't ask such silly questions"

 

To which I'd offer this (off-topic) reply - hasn't Science made progress precisely because some people didn't do previous research, didn't care about reputation points, and did ask silly questions? Think of Copernicus, Galileo and Darwin. Suppose these three characters had posted their ideas on a 16th/17th/19th century equivalent of SFN. Wouldn't they have got very bad rep, and been blasted off? For not doing proper research into the crystalline spheres which obviously surround our centrally- positioned Earth. And for not realising that heavy objects must obviously fall faster than lighter ones? And failing to grasp that all animals were created in 4004 BC and obviously saved from the Great Flood via the accomodation provided in Noah's Ark?

...

Perhaps this is OT, but the door was opened. You represent a common misconception -if not insidious meme- in understanding scientific thought and progress. You show the contradiction yourself because most certainly those 3 historical characters knew full well what went before, i.e. they did their due diligence in research. No one discovers anything of import in a knowledge vacuum.

Back on topic, a good programming language to learn is one that does what you need. I first learned GW-Basic (we called it Gee Whiz Basic back then). Later took some required course work in Pascal but never used it outside of class. Now when I need programming I tell someone what I want done and let them choose the language and work out themselves what isn't giving me what I asked for.

Mmmmmm.... Seems like a passel o' disconnects, diversions, and doubtful discombobulations here to me. The opening post claims a general interest in a poorly defined detriment in a highly skilled circumstance and the poster now has moved to talking about a personal connection which won't be talked about. Fire him/her? I'd have to hire him/her to do that and if an interview went anything like this thread my bs detector would be all a'buzz. I know who you are and I saw what you did.

I recommend a protractor.

A sorta silly interlocution.

Errors and ambiguities aside, electric drag boats have been around for a number of years.

http://www.seattleoutboard.org/electric.html

Seattle Outboard Association first branched out into Electric Boat Racing when it was the APBA-affiliated sanctioning body for a World Kilometer Record Trial, Sponsored by an Everett WA electric utility in 1992. The kilometer record at that time was 50.8 mph, held by Britain's Fiona, Countess of Arran.

...

E-boat races are flag-started heats of two laps. The focus is on fast starts and using all available power within those two laps. currently, a 144v hydro can accelerate from start to 70 mph in approximately 300 feet, and E-boats can race flat out for distances up to 3 miles per charge. Close racing is common within classes. As an example, the 1996 championship for 144v was decided by a mere 113 points.

 

To describe the boats: 144s run 12 automotive starter batteries to provide 144v at up to 800 amps. Motors are 36 to 48 volt industrial DC or aircraft starter motors used as powerheads on outboard lower units. When powered as noted, the higher current "hot-rods" these motors to nearly 155 horsepower. 48s use only 4 batteries, and these pump 12 to 30 volt motors to about 20 horsepower. Hulls for both classes are usually converted existing raceboats, though larger (up to 14 ft.) custom hydroplanes prevail in the 144v class providing extra lift for battery weight.

 

If you're interested in getting involved in E-Boats, we have available raceboats and we'd welcome your company. For more information on electric boats, write or call:

 

John Paramore

914 210th PL SW

Lynnwood, WA 98036

Phone/Fax: 206/672-2757

E-mail:wizprodj@eskimo.com

Now you know the rest of the story.