Acme

God I knew I had one.

Just between you and me, everyone has one.

Just want to let you guys know that I am subscribed to this topic now

Just to let you know, we already knew that from your secret military record.

I agree with the earlier posts on likely errors as the table stands. However, there is water in minerals that is not groundwater so a category is missing.

 

...Analyzing the ringwoodite showed that roughly 1.5 per cent of its weight was water, locked away in the mineral at the time it was formed, a bit like a time capsule. That may not seem like a lot, but when you add up the total volume of the transition zone, even that small per cent of that comes out to be a lot of water. Scientists had speculated that the transition zone could hold an abundance of water, but until now, there had been no hard evidence to confirm it.

 

"This sample really provides extremely strong confirmation that there are local wet spots deep in the Earth in this area," said Pearson, according to the news release. "That particular zone in the Earth, the transition zone, might have as much water as all the world's oceans put together."

...

source: >> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/geekquinox/rare-mineral-fragment-points-scientists-vast-repository-underground-202351393.html;_ylt=A0SO8x.LgytTNVMAqlhXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzMzZtdW9uBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDM4NV8x

This is going on all respondents' permanent secret military records.

Push-button switch, i.e. momentary contact. Door bell scavenge.

+ Mechanical bell. Got it.

+ Wire. Get some.

+ Electric toothbrush. Scavenge.

+ ingenuity.

Glue and/or tie springy-clapper-thingy to turning toothbrush doohickey & position so it clanks on bell whatzit when button jigger is pressed. Toothbrush already has battery holder so not necessary to construct battery-holder thinga-ma-bobber.

Badda-bing means no badda-boom.

 

= Priceless.

I have some comments on why invoking entropy has nothing to do with cleverness, or any other such word or phrase one wishes to euphemistically substitute for said cleverness. First, as others have explained, the idea of entropy describing order is bastardized from the thermodynamic meaning of entropy used in physics. Nonetheless I will dispatch both descriptions as having anything to do with constraining higher order abstractions as is suggested by TAR and Mike.

 

Observe:

Pray bring to your mind how often I desired you to consider, when you insisted on the motive of public good, that the Yahoos were a species of animals utterly incapable of amendment by precept or example: and so it has proved; for, instead of seeing a full stop put to all abuses and corruptions, at least in this little island, as I had reason to expect; behold, after above six months warning, I cannot learn that my book has produced one single effect according to my intentions.

Now the higher order abstraction in that passage is the communication meant to bring to mind a set of conditions on a certain island. Now observe again.

 

Pray bring to your mind how often I desired you to consider, when you insisted on the motive of public good, that the Yahoos were a species of animals utterly incapable of amendment by precept or example: and so it has proved; for, instead of seeing a full stop put to all abuses and corruptions, at least in this little island, as I had reason to expect; behold, after above six months warning, I cannot learn that my book has produced one single effect according to my intentions.

In the second quote, entropy under both meanings is entirely changed. In the way of order, the type differs in size and boldness. In the way of thermodynamics, the heat 'beaming' out from your screen is completely different than that of the first quote. But in either case the higher abstraction of what is communicated remains unchanged. Entropy by any other meaning would be as misapplied.

 

*source: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/829/829-h/829-h.htm

...

Acme,

 

Doug's take, with the conceptual level shifts, are lessons I learned by reading Gulliver's Travels. I hardly find that surprising or strange. Rather required I would think, to be a point of focus, as we are, on a particular size and time scale, within and of a universe that operates as well on much tinier scales, and much larger, than we do.

 

Regards, TAR

 

We still need to describe what maximum entropy should look like, to provide the toward 10 tail of Mike's bell curve.

No; Gulliver's travels is not Doug's strange loops and your entropy fixation is beating dead lilliputians. Of course if you read both you would know that.

I found out that R.Squarrosum uses electrostatics to throw seeds from itself.

Interesting. The seeds appear smooth in the photo, though I may see some small bumps/sharp points. Nonetheless while sharp points may concentrate a charge, they aren't requisite to carry one. Then the phrase "when manually extracted from the pockets" is a bit ambiguous as it implies human separation. ? However, I can imagine the seed 'jump' as a survival strategy for the plant if an animal attempts to eat the seed only to have it shoot off some distance.

 

When I do my balloon experiment I'll try some other seeds too, such as the California Poppies I mentioned.

 

Back to the electrostatic pollen paper, I found more of interest. (Note: I transcribed these passages and any grammatical errors may be my typos.)To whit:

... Normally plants possess small negative surface charges under clear fair-day conditions, and are, therefore, surrounded by electric fields of low intensity (Maw 1962). Under unstable weather conditions, as on a cloudy day or rainy day, the electric fields can change their polarity and the surface charges become positive. (Warnke 1977) The magnitude of the electric fields depends in part on the chemical composition of the plant, its height and the environment (Erickson and Buchamann 1983). The distribution

of the electric field around the plant varies with its shape, and the plant's electrical fields should be greatest near sharp points such as plant terminals including flowers (Dai and Law 1995). ...

So a negative charge 'usually' on plants. And again with the sharp points and perhaps the sharp point of the O. suksdorfii seed capsule plays a role in charging the seeds? Then too the bursting may play a role in charging the seeds? Oh for a high speed camera!! As it was, it took a 5 hour recording to wait for and capture the micro-second burst that I managed. Then too, what of the chemical makeup of the seed-coat? The ridges do have a different color than the furrows, so perhaps they differ chemically in a way that carries a charge better?

 

Now more from the pollen paper...

... Foraging bees usually possess electrically positive surface charges (Erickson 1975. Yes'kov and Sapozhnikov 1976, Wanke 1977, Schwartz 1991, Gan-More et al 1995). When a bee flies through the air it is confronted with electrical currents and its body will be electrostatically charged with "frictional electricity" (Warnke 1977). Warnke (1977) and Thorp (1979) suggested that in the case of pollen-seeking insects, accumulation of pollen on the surfaces of insects and pollen distribution by the insects are enhanced by the forces of attraction between the insect's positively charged body surface and the generally negatively charged plant with its pollen. ...

Not sure if other animals such as birds, mammals, or reptiles also collect a positive charge as they move, but if they do then the electrostatic setup I'm proposing is supported.

 

Off to do more reading...

I found a page or two on The Role of Electrostatic Forces In Pollination which you might glean clues from. Scroll up a bit to the title to read it all in the link..

Muchas gracias! Already I find some support from your source for an earlier proposition of mine.

I'm inclined to think the ribbed/ridged seed coat is a contributing factor to the [apparent] electrostatic action.

...In electrostatic charging, electrons remain relatively stationary and are spread on the surface of the object and concentrated on sharp edges. ...

Off to read more...

Acme,

 

I am not resisting reading it. Just not requiring myself to read it, inorder to hold similar insights.

 

I already noted that there are other books on my shelf that I am requiring myself to read, eventually, and just do not have Hofstadler on my shelf, or on my priority list. I may very well eventually read him, so it is not resistance. However there is the important consideration, that inorder to discuss the ideas that you hold, having read his arguments, it is a requirement that I read those particular arguments to have a mutual basis upon which to proceed. I conceed this, while at the same time suggest that true things will remain true, and can be noticed in other ways, by other routes that do not require reading the book, to get to.

Roger. I will pass on what little bits as I see fits.

 

As to the OP. Mike has allowed that we can proceed without the word cleverness, and still be talking about something of the sort.

"Strange" loops, indicate to me that there is a surprising and unexpected quality to the universe that we are not yet aware of, that we will find, if we do the math. What if I already "felt" the thing, embraced it, consider it real and present, and included it in my feeling of self. My cleverness a result of being in and of the thing, and thusly not a stranger to me. Evidence of cleverness in the universe being twice indicated, once in me recognizing it, and twice in it being able to result in me and others of like kind.

 

snip...

Regards, TAR

I will give Dougie's 'first stab' at defining a strange loop.

What I mean by "strange loop" is -- here goes a first stab anyway -- not a physical circuit but an abstract loop in which, in the series of stages that constitute the cycling-around, there is a shift from one level of abstraction ( or structure) to another, which feels like an upwards movement in a hierarchy, and yet somehow the successive "upward" shifts turn out to give rise to a closed cycle. ... In short, a strange loop is a paradoxical level-crossing feedback loop.

In an earlier section of the book titled Thermodynamics and Statistical Mechanics, Doug makes this observation.

Our existence as animals whose perception is limited to the world of everyday macroscopic objects forces us, quite obviously, to function without any reference to entities and processes at microscopic levels. No one really knew the slightest thing about atoms until only about a hundred years ago, and yet people got along perfectly well.

The upshot, as I take it, is that to come to grips with concepts like cleverness -which are at high levels of abstraction- there is no real help or utility referring to lower levels of abstraction [such as entropy]. To paraphrase the Dougster, knowing all about cells tells you nothing about the pumpitudinality of a heart.

Just a thought, but could you try neutralizing their charge or maybe using a humidifier?

 

Be interesting to hear how it goes.

For the short video I made, the seeds may have been largely charge-neutral; only 3 ever clung to the paper slip after several minutes stirring them about. For that experiment the seeds were laying on/in a [red] plastic lid from a yogurt container. Humidity in the room was ~60%. (I have a hygrometer on the wall.)

 

I'm planning some more experimenting and I invite more suggestions. At first opportunity I'm going to find a small balloon and blow it up, rub it on a wool sock, and bring it near the seeds.

 

One other comment regarding the video with the paper slip. Of the 3 seeds that clung to the slip, all were aligned in the same orientation and their ribs were parallel to 'down'. If the ribs were acting as hooks I would expect them to be perpendicular to 'down'. I see this as a supporting ( ) argument for the electrostatic explanation.

 

The one that grow in my yard could be a cultivar, my yard is very wet, this area used to be a wetland, lots of odd flowers growing here and there, I may have confused the blooms. I don't try to suppress the native plants beyond an occasional mowing, I am one of those odd people who appreciate native plants and our wetlands are home to some unusual species...

There are many hundreds of species in the genus Oxalis and pinks/purples are not uncommon even in wild species. When your yard buddies emerge I will help direct you to probe their oxalisnessesses so we may get to the bottom of things. :0

Yeah, I've found a good bit about seeds clinging in general(mostly in farming applications) and electroculture(which I suspect is largely unrelated). Nothing about research into plants deliberately utilizing static electricity for seed dispersal, don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible though.

Sounds similar to my search results in regards to the farm business.

I'm almost certain the blooms on the ones here are purple but they are not in bloom yet and i'll take some photos when they are...

Roger that...

 

So I got a few seeds to cling briefly to a cardstock slip and attaching video. As the film SLR images would be weeks away at best I borrowed the eyepiece projection technique from astrophotography and took some seed shots through my loupe. Depth of field issues made for a little blurriness, but it's better than what I had before. (Won't bore you with too much photo talk. ) First shot is with CFL illumination only and second one with CFL and some added LED from a penlight. Seeds on average measure ~1mm across short axis.

 

 

 

(Sorry; can't seem to figure out how to embed the player. D'oh! )

video: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/114331103@N07/13233281624/

My yard is full of that stuff or something very similar, I'll have to see if the seeds do the same thing. I don't see any reason electrostatic forces couldn't be a factor, spores of ferns and or fungus might be a better model for electrostatic attraction since they are so much smaller.

You likely have Common Yellow Oxalis - Oxalis stricta back there. Could be native to N.C. but O. stricta is definitely an introduced weed here. I have not let any get to the seed stage as I pull them out whenever I see them, but a pic at the Wiki page shows similar capsules. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalis_stricta

 

I'm hesitant to attribute the apparent electrostatic action to simply size, as I have sorted many similar sized and smaller sized seeds without seeing the same effect. (California Poppy comes to mind.) I'm inclined to think the ribbed/ridged seed coat is a contributing factor to the [apparent] electrostatic action.

 

I have moved from the yard I found the plants in and I'm currently propagating the seeds I collected. I may have planted them all, but if not I'll see if I can reproduce the effect of the seeds clinging to the paper and make a video of it.

 

Thanks for the interest and input!

Do you have a magnification function on your camera?

The digital camera I took the seed shot with does allow a very close focus, within 1/8" of the lens as well as a 20x non-digital lens-zoom function. Problem with getting subject so close to lens is getting light onto the front of the subject. I also have a film SLR I just started using again and for it I have a 28mm lens as well as a 4x filter which I can try using for a closer shot.

 

Will try some closer shots and report back.

I have formed an hypothesis that this particular plant has evolved the strategy of widely dispersing its seed using electrostatic force. Having made several efforts to find some reference to such a strategy and finding none, I thought I'd put the issue to the forum audeience.

 

So, the plant is Western Yellow Oxalis - Oxalis suksdorfii. [aka Suksdorf Wood-sorrel, Western Yellow Wood-sorrel] Plants appeared as volunteers in my yard a few years back and I subsequently ID'd it & found it is ranked Sensitive in Washington State. In retrospect I suspect it hitched a ride home from one of my tramps in the wild.

 

Among its interesting qualities, the leaves fold when touched, the seed capsules burst explosively, and the leaves/stems are edible. Anyway, while sorting some seeds from their chaff with a bit of cardstock I noticed a fair number of the seeds clinging to the little piece of paper. Some nudging/bumping/brushing was required to dislodge the seeds and with subsequent sorting they would again cling to the cardstock.

 

As there were no aparent hooks, glue, or other reason for the seeds to cling I came to the idea it was electrostatic charge holding them. The seed capsules will burst on their own as they age, but at a certain stage of ripeness they will also burst when physically disturbed. My hypothesis is that when an animal disturbs the ripe capsules they burst, and the seeds fly out to cling to the animal's skin/fur/feathers and hitch a ride until the charge is lost whereupon the seeds drop.

 

So. Thoughts? References to this or other plants with this habit? I am posting photos of the whole plant, a bloom, the capsule, the seeds, and a link to a short video of a capsule exploding.

 

Thanks,

Acme

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/114331103@N07/13227029323/

This morning on the news 'they' said a pilot can not only disable the transponder by pulling a fuse, but they can do the same for the flight recorders.

Acme,

 

True insights are had regularly, more than once, because they are fitting and appropriate.

 

In my estimation scientific method relies heavily on this. Peer review would require a second mind to have an obtainable, real, true insight, similar to the first, for real true reasons. And it has not been the case, that one can have a true insight, that cannot be had by another, and certainly if it is a true insight, insight haver B can have it independently from insight haver A. In other words, Hofstadler's having a true insight, does not prevent me from having it, independently. If the insights are true, they can be reproduced and obtained independantly, and your requirement that I read his arguments, to talk about them, cuts out the most important middleman, that being reality itself, which is available to me through the insights of all I have read, all I have witnessed and all I have mused about.

 

Thus the odds of having a false insight more than once are low, but the odds of having a true insight, more than once, is exceedingly high.

 

snip...

Well, I'm not exactly requiring you to read I Am A Strange Loop; rather suggesting it. I'm rather confused at your resistance TTTT. [To Tell The Truth]

 

As to the insights, I wasn't suggesting they can't happen more than once, only that they mustn't. That is to say multiples are a sufficient condition, but not necessary. Again I am confused at you resistance to reading Hofstadter. ?? You do after all include "all I have read" as a source of insight. In the current vernacular, whatever.

Thanks for those clarifications Tea.

 

 

The type of transponder in use here (ads-b) broadcasts the aircrafts position every 2 ish second. These messages are used by SSR for aircraft tracking and have a range of about 300 km. (Note the transponder type is inferred from the aircraft tracking websites that tracked the aircraft). The range is based on an aircraft at cruise height and is broadly line of sight.

 

I'm surprised that this and the acars system can be tuned off.

I hadn't ever really thought about the transponders being turned off by pilots, but I have heard ATC ask pilots to reset them on numerous occasions.

What I read implied that primary radar is sometimes turned off and only secondary radar is used, or that the plane was out of range of primary radar. All things being equal, primary has a shorter range since it drops off as r⁴, while secondary drops off as r².

Mmmmm...I'd need to read what you read. Did I miss the link?

 

Anyway, the transponders have nothing to do with the radar. Besides the power dropping off with distance, there is a radar ceiling below which it cannot see. Even if the radar had enough power, if the plane dropped in altitude or flew far enough so that it was below the radar ceiling, it wouldn't be detected. At PDX the traffic control radar is up on a hill @ ~ 2500 feet so it can 'see' traffic on all sides of the hill. As a consequence the controllers cannot see any aircraft below 2,500ft and they rely on the pilots to report their altitude by radio. [The transponders may report altitude but I'm not sure.]

 

Military radars are a different kettle of fish. Militaries are not in the habit of giving the specs of their equipment as doing so would make it possible for enemies to get around their capabilities. I'm not surprised that the Malaysian military is being cagey about what they did or did not image of the missing flight.

I think you're overestimating the abundance of cell phone towers out at sea (or in some areas of some countries), and how much civilian radar can do. It's my understanding that much of the tracking comes from query and response from onboard transponders, not active use of true radar if you turn the transponder off, the plane is invisible to civilian radar. ...

The transponders only send specific aircraft identification info to control towers and they are not necessary for an aircraft to be seen on radar. [i know this from listening to aircraft control radio out of PDX]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder

... In air navigation or radio frequency identification, a flight transponder is a device that emits an identifying signal in response to an interrogating received signal. ...

I agree about no cell towers at sea and the limits of radar. Radar is line of sight and if nothing else, the curvature of Earth will put an aircraft 'off the radar' at some certain distance dependent on the elevation of the radar transmitting dish and/or its power.

Acme,

 

Thanks. Very cool indeed.

 

Strange Loops may find its way into my library, but I am content going right to the source...that is, what is true will remain true, and if his argument is true one can come to the same insights, and make a similar argument, in another way. That seems a fine thing about true things, that they are true, in another way, as well. If something is not true in more than one way...well then it isn't true. It's got to fit, with everything else that is true. ...

That strikes me as both untrue and a sort of copout. If you don't know Hofstadter's arguments, you're in no position to compare any other to it. Moreover, there is simply no basis in fact that an insight/truth is destined to occur even once, let alone multiple times. If you don't read about strange loops at the source so be it; however you won't be in any position to understand or incorporate any arguments from that topic that may enhance this discussion. Your loss IMHO.

Well I am your man !

There is a second Australian impact crater that may have triggered extinctions in late Devonian (364 ± 8 million years ) It's on land. Krike!!

 

Woodleigh crater @ Wiki: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodleigh_crater

 

Woodleigh is a large meteorite impact crater (astrobleme) in Western Australia, centred on Woodleigh Station east of Shark Bay. A team of four scientists at the Geological Survey of Western Australia and the Australian National University, led by Arthur J. Mory, announced the discovery in the 15 April 2000 issue of Earth and Planetary Science Letters.[1]

 

The crater is not exposed at the surface and therefore its size is uncertain. The original discovery team believe it may be up to 120 km (75 mi) in diameter,[1] but others argue it may be much smaller, with one study suggesting a diameter closer to 60 km (37 mi).[2] The larger estimate of 120 km, if correct, would make this crater tied for the fourth largest confirmed impact structure in the world, and imply a bolide (asteroid or comet) about 56 km (3.13.7 mi) in diameter.[3] A more recent study suggests the crater could be between 60 to 160 km or more, and was produced by a comet or asteroid 6 to 12 km wide.[4]

...

The Woodleigh impact event, originally thought to have occurred between the Late Triassic and Late Permian, is now thought to date from 364 ± 8 million years (Late Devonian).[5] This time corresponds approximately to a minor extinction event when around 40% of species disappeared. There is evidence for other large impact events at around the same time, so if the extinction is related to impact, perhaps more than one crater was involved.. It is on land and called Woodleigh.

...

Ooops... credit Acme

Well Swedgen lives in Australia . So he can pop out and have a check up !

 

Mike

He'll need a boat. The crater is offshore.

Well I think you are right , but there appears to be a bit of a theory about that , an impact by a, or a series of asteroids impacting even on the other side of the earth may have triggered the Siberian traps. I will try and find the quote. I think the thing lasted quite some time , dare I say 1000's even more years . I think .

 

Mike

The graph I posted gives that association, but I neglected to add the link to the full article and can't edit now. Here it is: Asteroid/Comet Impact Craters and Mass Extinctions >> http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/crater.html

 

It is not proven yet, but suspected that the Siberian flood deposits may have been triggered by an antipodal impact near Australia. The crater there is called Bedout, as seen on the graph I posted. Here's more on it: >> Bedout: A Possible End-Permian Impact Crater Offshore of Northwestern Australia >> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/304/5676/1469.abstract

 

I don't have permission to access the full article, but here is the Abstract.

The Bedout High, located on the northwestern continental margin of Australia, has emerged as a prime candidate for an end-Permian impact structure. Seismic imaging, gravity data, and the identification of melt rocks and impact breccias from drill cores located on top of Bedout are consistent with the presence of a buried impact crater. The impact breccias contain nearly pure silica glass (SiO2), fractured and shock-melted plagioclases, and spherulitic glass. The distribution of glass and shocked minerals over hundreds of meters of core material implies that a melt sheet is present. Available gravity and seismic data suggest that the Bedout High represents the central uplift of a crater similar in size to Chicxulub. A plagioclase separate from the Lagrange-1 exploration well has an Ar/Ar age of 250.1 ± 4.5 million years. The location, size, and age of the Bedout crater can account for reported occurrences of impact debris in Permian-Triassic boundary sediments worldwide.

Besides impacts causing antipodal volcanic eruptions, impacts may cause eruptions by decompression right where they hit. Here's a PDF on that: IMPACT DECOMPRESSION MELTING: A POSSIBLE TRIGGER FOR IMPACT INDUCED VOLCANISM AND MANTLE HOTSPOTS ?>> http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocuments/JonesSpringer2003.pdf

I had no Idea BBC i player not available in USA .

I will try and find it elsewhere as its really good .

Here is Prof Lee Smolin with just his bit . I will look for more

 

Prof Lee Smolin link

 

mike

 

Prof Lee Smolin , one of many famous scientists at Perimeter Institute in Canada, Researching " Begining of Universe "

 

next link text only :- Documentary

 

 

scientists taking part in discussion :-

The second video is blocked by BBC. I watched the first. The guy seems to be describing a sort of hybrid multiverse/big-crunch idea. In any regard, he and the rest of your fellas are just kicking the can down the road as it were because you/we will naturally just ask "well, what was before that stuff?" What island did it All begin on?

 

To paraphrase my earlier unattested paraphrase, "sometimes shit just happens". Don't beat yourself up over it.

 

So I recommend having fun, because there is nothing better for people in this world than to eat, drink, and enjoy life. That way they will experience some happiness along with all the hard work ...~ Ecclesiastes 8:15

To me this has been a most thought provoking set of statements from well recognised Physics scientists for some time!

 

. VIEWING -------- ENDS TODAY

 

Mike

Alas your link displays a message saying "Currently BBC iPlayer TV programmes are available to play in the UK only, but all BBC iPlayer Radio programmes are available to you." I'm in the US so no telly 4 me.

 

What physicist said [paraphrasing] "the big bang is just one of those things that happens from time to time"? I could have misrememberated I suppose. Anyway, I have tried searching for the quote source and get a mountain of links to the US television show titled Big Bang Theory. D'oh! Culture bias takes the day on both sides of the pond.