astrocat5

Of course I'm a dualist - I'm Gnostic.There are two of everything, Immortal - I realise as a 'monist' you think there's only one of everything. 'Scholars in the field...' don't make me laugh. Who cares about the Sun God? Not me, that's for sure. I have bigger fish to fry. I'm trying to explain Gnosticism. It comes from the Greek word 'gnosis,' and is the root word for 'knowledge.' What is it that a Gnostic knows? We know, for example - that Jesus was the Son of the Perfect One and was therefore perfect. God isn't perfect, and nothing he makes is perfect - I hope we can agree. Now, if Jesus was the Son of God, he wouldn't be perfect. He would have been like any one of us, weak and useless.

In the Old Testament? Nothing. But I think you would be respectful if you met Jesus. That's the New Testament.

Speaking as a Gnostic, we call the Abrahamic God (Kill me a son, Abraham - just kidding!) the Devil. Same as the God of Moses, same as your God! Who made the world, who's world it is. Who Jesus called the Devil when he (Jesus) was offered the world if he would fall down and adore him (the Devil). Who's world is it? Your God made the world and every other material thing. Material - Jesus warned us against it. 'If you love this life you will lose it, but if you hate this life you will live forever in heaven.' Who said that? Jesus - I forget exactly where. Anybody know? Your God made the world - an 'imperfect' place if ever there was one. God was made perfectly by the Perfect One - who lives and is perfectly happy in his spirit lifestyle. Being a spirit, he (or she) needs nothing. The Perfect One, our Heavenly Father ('Our Father, who art in Heaven...) made many perfect beings, angels and arch-angels. One of these Arch -angels, the perfect One's favorite - Lucifer, turned away from the Perfect One and made the world, offering it to Jesus (according to Jesus - the Son of the Perfect One) if Jesus would fall down and adore him - Lucifer! Your religion will tell you 'You're Evil, and the World is Beautiful, that's why you don't fit in!' But Gnostics say, 'The World is Evil, and You're Beautiful. That's why you don't fit in!' Creating matter was not, in my opinion, pleasing to The Perfect One. Matter, after all, decays. Matter is not perfect. Only a spirit can be perfect. No, God's (or as I and Jesus would call him- the Devil's) world is evil. You don't believe me? Stand outside on a cold winter's day and then tell me how you feel. We build houses to keep the cold away. We don't want to experience just how evil this world is, so we 'insulate' ourselves so we don't have to notice. But if you're poor, you'll notice - but you'll go to Heaven automatically. Feel sorry for the rich man (eye of the needle)... Well that's interesting, Immortal. I had no idea you could see things like that. Software would help, definitely in our research of other cultures, but as for scholars from the old days - I think we all now know more than them! I'm just saying, 'Put your faith in your fellow man (or woman) rather than the world.' We Gnostics see the world as evil. It's a cruel place if you're poor.

Jesus was the one who called the Abrahamic God 'The Devil.' (John 8, 44) and before that, when he was tempted. The Devil offered Jesus the world, if Jesus would adore him. Jesus told this story - but Jesus knew the world was made by God and God owned the world. But Jesus called the owner of the world the Devil. Go figure! I said, Immortal, that much garbage has been written about Gnostics (that we think God is a demi-urge) We think he is the Devil. I'm talking about the God of Moses. Of course I accept the New Testament entirely. It's the Old Testament with which I have trouble. Now what Carrl Jung believed is neither here or there (to me.) John 8, 44 tells me God is the Devil. Jesus told a story of being tempted - offered the whole world - by the Devil. Who owns the world, Immortal? Probably the same guy who made it - and Jesus (who well knew that God made the world) called him the Devil. Why can't you see this, Immortal. Show me please, where Jesus says, 'I am the Son of God.' If he never said it, why not? He is tyhe Son of the Perfect One - Jesus was perfect. That's why he rose from the dead. You can't kill something that is perfect, Immortal. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. And what is the 'plereoma' of God? It's a word I have never heard. What happened to me was - the day before I married, I smoked a joint lying back on my bed, and I found myself able to disembody. That is, my spirit came out of my body into the spirit world. Well, I asked to meet God, but I didn't like him. When I came back, I cried, because my faith had left me. My faith in God that is. But not my faith in Jesus. Some time later I read an article in Time Magazine, about people like me, and they called us Gnostics. So that's why I call myself a Gnostic. Gnosticism is something that happens to a person. It's not something that you're taught. It's Gnosis, the root word for Knowledge. You know something that other people don't - that God is no good. Sounds brutal, but that's the fact. Put your faith in Jesus, Immortal - and find everlasting life.

Goes to show that you're confused. Do you believe in God, 'Now'?If you don't that's okay. If you do please tell me. I need to know whether he believes in God or not. I need to know whether he believes in God or not. There is a lot of garbage said about Gnostics. Let me tell you, we believe in Jesus. We think your God (the God of Abraham) is none other than the Devil. We have several reasons for this. We agree with everything Jesus said. We worship him as the son of the Perfect One, the Heavenly Father. Whether or not the ancient Gnostics knew about modern scientific undertakings is neither here nor there. And please tell me who Schroedinger was or is. The Abrahamic God is the Devil, plain and simple. The Perfect One is our Heavenly Father - not Lucifer. Lucifer, like God, turned away from the Heavenly Father at the time of their creation. Lucifer was made perfectly, so perfectly he was the Heavenly Father's favourite. But Lucifer, like God, rejected the Perfect One, thinking he was as good or better than the Heavenly Father. Everything the Perfect One makes is perfect. Everything God makes is imperfect - this world is a good example. Why can you not see this, Immortal? You're not getting it. I said God made himself imperfect when he created matter. The Perfect One has nothing to do with matter. The Perfect One, the Heavenly Father, is a spirit and he lives in the spirit world. He hates to get his hands dirty. You're not getting it. I said God made himself imperfect when he created matter. The Perfect One has nothing to do with matter. The Perfect One, the Heavenly Father, is a spirit and he lives in the spirit world. He hates to get his hands dirty. And why is that, Moontanaman? It's all about Faith, Peter, and whether you believe or not.I'm a Gnostic and I'm simply trying to explain the gnostic point-of-view. Now, if you don't believe - either in God or the Devil you're going to have a hard time in this thread. I don't believe in Astrology - superstition only. As for your Math, Mathematics isn't a Science. I hope you know that. I'm just trying to explain gnosticism, about the difference between Jesus and God, about the Son of Man and the Son of God. We think God is the devil. We don't apporeciate him. Who we like is Jesus. Anyway, let me know if you believe in God or not. Please! It's all about Faith, Peter, and whether you believe or not.I'm a Gnostic and I'm simply trying to explain the gnostic point-of-view. Now, if you don't believe - either in God or the Devil you're going to have a hard time in this thread. I don't believe in Astrology - superstition only. As for your Math, Mathematics isn't a Science. I hope you know that. I'm just trying to explain gnosticism, about the difference between Jesus and God, about the Son of Man and the Son of God. We think God is the devil. We don't apporeciate him. Who we like is Jesus. Anyway, let me know if you believe in God or not. Please!

God was made by the Perfect One, our Heavenly Father, but God thought he was as good as, if not better - than the Perfect One. That's vanity. Too bad you can't see it.The Perfect One has nothing to do with material. He lives in a Spiritual World which satisfies him perfectly. When God made all the Hydrogen, it probably didn't please the Perfect One - the Heavenly Father. We came from God. God is imperfect, just as we are. The world is imperfect, and anything imperfect will self-destruct. When the world ends, that will be a good thing, as seen by the Perfect One. Who made the world? According to jEsus, the world belongs to the devil. Jesus well knew that God made the world - but Jesus calls him the devil. That's good enough for me. Too bad you can't see it. When you die, you come to these huge Pearly Gates with 'God's People' written above it. It seems like there's a heck of a party going on inside, but it's just speakers and a cliff. God's people are pushing and shoving to get in, but me and this kid on crutches, we get pushed out. So we go looking along the wall, tll we find a narrow entrance - and it's always Jesus sitting outside. Him or his girlfriend. They invite us in. Jesus always said, 'Enter by the narrow gate,' and that's what we do. Except, you make the decfision here, in this world. If you get married and have kids, a house and a [pool, that's what you get. Me, I never wanted children - I'll have mine in Heaven, and they'll be angels. That's the way it works. What you don't have in this world, you will have in the next. What you have in this world, you won't have in the next. What's stolen from you will be returned - by the person who stole it. Jesus' justice is perfect, like him. But Jesus was made by the Perfect One, not God. The Perfect one decided to save this world - not physically, of course, but spiritually. Jesus was perfect, and so were his miracles and cures. Someday, you'll see it. I just hope it's not too late. So now we have it - you worship the sun. Me, I've moved on from there, to a Spiritual master, the Perfect One, the Heavenly Father. But I'm interested that you don't believe in the God of Abraham. Jesus called him the devil. Yes, believing in something natural, something you can see and feel is a good idea, or it used to be, thousands of years ago. Sometimes, though, you argue for 'the whole of religious thinking,' and that's gotta include the God of Abraham. But this you deny - well I wish you would make up your mind. The 'whole of religious thinking' must cover the God of Abraham, the way I see it. Maybe you're just being slippery. Maybe you're slipping and sliding along, never willing to state your beliefs, on your guard against any heretics. Because that's what Gnosticism is - a heresy. I'm a heretic- they used to burn us at the stake. St Francis of Assissi (who made money betraying these Gnostics) always wondered why tthey seemed so cheerful to die and wanted to die for God himself. Are you not interested in Jesus, or is it God yo're not interested in? Allah? Suva? What are you interseted in, Iggy. You should tell me - this is my thread. Are you interested in Astronomy? Girls? I think you should tell me. So whatare you interested in, Iggy, I think you should tell me. Is it Astronomy? Girls? What? You are in my hread and I just want to talk to you. Authors of the Bible - nothing. Authors of the New Testament - a heck of a lot of work. What do you believe, John? Why won't you tell me?

I wish you would tell me what you believe in. If you don't believe in the God of Abraham, who do you believe in. If you told me, it would make things a lot easier for me. Thanks, Immortal.

I don't need your links, and if you don't beleve in the God of Abraham, then who the heck do you believe in? I think you should say. God is the Devil, and Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God. He called himself the Son of Man, just so you wouldn't make this mistake. God made himself imperfect - that's why the world is imperfect, and why Man is too. The Perfect One made God and many other spirits and angels - all of them perfect. God commited vanity and became imperfect. Everything God makes is therefore imperfect and must self-destruct. I think the Bible is a load of Mumbo-Jumbo. The New Testament though, offers much wisdom about rejecting the world. Once Jesus was taken to the top of a mountain and offered everything, if he would bow to the DEvil. Now, who's world is it, according to Jesus - the Devil's. Who is the Devil - God. God made the world and Jesus would have been taught that same thing. Why therefore does he indicate that the Devil made the World? God was made perfect. By entering into 'Materialism' as opposed to 'Spiritualism' God made himself imperfect. THe Perfect One has nothing to do with materialism - anything material will eventually die or self-destruct. The mountains will crumble into the sea etc. etc. You're right about the Bible. It's a load of garbage to me. Material is evil, only the spirit is good. It's important to take care of your spirit. Hi Iggy, nice of you to join my thread. Yes, there's only one Perfect One ands only one God. O course, everything the Perfect One makes is perfect. It's all he can do. God isn't perfect, and that's why the world (and man) is the way it is.

Well the first Hydrogen had to come from somewhere - or someone. I don't have any problem with that. God made it, or the being they call God, Allah, Shiva - that's the creator, or so I believe. If I'm wrong will someone correct me, please. Or if you don't believe, where do you think the first Hydrogen came from? Please be clear.Now, do you think this creation pleased the Perfect One? The Perfect One can only create perfection. When he created God, God was perfect. When God thought he was as good, if not better, than the Perfect One he erred - that's vanity! And starting a rival Universe by creating Hydrogen (given off in moments of vanity) would not please the Perfect One in his spirit world. Material leads to materialism, something you could never say of Jesus. Jesus rejected materialism, the good things of this world - preferring to wait until after he was dead. We know he loved Mary Magdalene, she was referred to as 'The disciple that Jesus loved,' by the Evangelists. BUt we know what he said to her - 'Don't touch me.' When Jesus rose on the third day, he would have needed some clothes - obviously. He found a gardeners shack with some overalls in it and wore those. The first people who would have gone to his tomb the day after the sabbath (Passover) would, could, only have been his mother and lover. They were good friends by now, and it's recorded that Mary Magdalene saw 'the gardener' and rushed up to him, asking where they had taken the body, and she must have grabbed him, because he said to her - 'don't touch me.' Well that's how she recognised him, the only man who ever told her that (she was very beautiful - probably a blonde from northern Europe, an escaped slave?) anyway they made love then. It didn't matter then. Nothing mattered. It was a different time in so many senses. Anyway, that's what I believe. Well I don't know what you guys are talking about, but this is my thread and I'm allowed to reply so I will.We Gnostics think Jesus is all you need, and I'd rather not tell you what we think of God - not much. Jesus told the Jews their God was the Devil (John 14, verse 42?) and we Gnostics agree. Satan is a puppet God waves in our faces - you better be good or this is who's gonna get you. Jesus rejected the World. Religion tells you you're Evil and the World is Beautiful. Gnostics say the World is Evil and you're Beautiful. Put your faith in Humanity - that"s what Jesus did. People loved him - poor people, anyway. He did miracles and made cures, that's what it says. I don't know about your Faith Type A and Faith Type B. I only know what I have interpreted from the Bible. Let me know, Poledice. Look, Immortal - there's a story in the Bible where everybody in the world rejected God. Everybody that is except for one man, Noah. Noah was the only person who believed in God. That's what it says in the Bible, anyway. So God told Noah to build a boat. His neighbours must have thought he was crazy, but then God made it rain and he drownded everyone in the world - but then Noah, the sole survivor stilll believed in God, so everybody in the world believed in God. Now, if that's God's way of changing people's minds - I don't think much of it. What do you call someone who kills everybody in the world except for one person? A megalomaniac, or worse - if I'm correct. Jesus loves you, Seriously Disabled - more than the rest. He loves disabled people more than the able-bodied. It is a rational response. There is much written on Gnosticism by non- Gnostics, much of it muddled. We believe Jesus is all you need, and God is the Devil. God is responsible for all the troubles of humanity, but you'll never see this. God is the creator, like Allah and all the rest. They made material worlds. Worlds made of material. The material world is evil - Jesus rejected it and taught us to do the same. Never mind theDalai Lama - that old stuff won't help you in the modern world. We Gnostics reject God in all his forms. We're dualists, you're a 'mono.' You have one God, one life, one wife, one house etc.But there's two of everything, male and female, hot and cold etc. etc,. The 'pleroma' of God? I have no idea what that is, and I thought I was Knowledgeable. Peter, you're an aetheist, right?THen where did the first hydrogen come from? It just appeared? What about all the rest? No, it was created, but compared to the spirit world, it was not good. God erred when he thought he was as good, if not better than the Perect One. In his material Universe, God looks good - if you believe in materialism. Look, I'm a Gnostic and we know better. God is evil - same as Allah or anyone of those. Jesus is good, maybe he was pertfect. Anyway, Jesus should be all you need. Jesus rejected the world and its materialism. We should do the same, but we're afraid. Afraid of what? Nature. Nature brings cold and storms, and other violent weather. We hide from Nature in warm houses we have built.

In the New Testament, Jesus cured many people. Prayer can make people sicker? Sure, praying to God won't help you. Only if you pray to Jesus can you be cured, at least that's what I think. It's all a question of Faith - either you believe or you don't. You don't seem to believe, am I right? You might as well be honest. Yes yes, Aymanbinmoshi. But I believe God was made perfect by the Perfect One. Unfortunately, for us, God thought he was as good, if not better, than the Perfect One. By thinking this, God became inperfect - he was vain. God made the world, that's why it's imperfect and that's why Earth will self-destruct. I really like talking to you but I don't know why.

Sorry, I'll do better. That's fascinating also. I knew Jesus was a prophet to you guys, but I never knew what you called him. But Allah is the same as God, right? He is the creator, is he not? Jesus is much more important to me, as he is the Son of the Perfect One. The Perfect One I believe, made God and many others, all perfect. Perfectly free to think they were just as good as their creator, but by thinking this, they made themselves imperfect. That was what God thought and it was God who created the World, without consulting the Perfect One. You see, if you are imperfect, everything you make will be imperfect and will ultimately self-destruct. This "Go forth and multiply" is not good advice today - there are already too many people for the world's resources. Is that Allah's advice also? Anyway, thanks for replying - I found it highly interesting, what you said. Got any more? I investigated your references, and you're right, I don't think God will cure you. But you could put your faith in Jesus, who cured many people. That's what I believe, anyway. When you die, you come to these huge 'Pearly Gates,' and music and a big sign over it saying 'God's People,' and everyone's pushing and shoving to get in, but it's just speakers and acliff. But me and this crippled kid, we get pushed out so we go along the wall and eventually come to a narrow entrance, almost too narrow to squeeze thru'. But Jesus always said 'Enter by the Narrow Gate,' so we go in there. But you make your choice in this world, don't you know?

I find your point of view fascinating. And you're right, 'Jesus cannot be God,' because he never said, 'I am the Son of God.' He said, instead, 'I am the Son of Man,' just so people wouldn't make this mistake (thinking he is the Son of God.) He is the Son of our Heavenly Father - the Perfect One, and everything he makes is perfect.Our Father made many other beings, all as good and as powerful as He was. Perfectly free were they to reject the Heavenly Father. Looking at themselves, they (some of them) thought they were justas good as The Father - if not better! One of these beings, thinking he was just as good, gave off Hydrogen, from which our Universe evolved. That was God, the creator of all material things. The Heavenly Father (who's name we do not know - 'Hallowed be thy name,' according to Jesus. 'You cannot know The Father, but I and the Father are the same.' God is a jealous God, and vengeful with it. Jesus showed none of these traits. Jesus taught us The Father is kind and forgiving - just the opposite, I would say, to God There's a story, you see, where the snake whispered to Eve to chose to get smarts in the Garden of Eden, then pushed Adam to get smart too. This made God very angry and he kicked them both out of the Garden. God cursed all snakes and turned woman against snakes. It's right there on page 2 of the Bible. I think the snake was right. I would have advised Eve to do the same. Well, you see, if I think the snake was right, that shows I don't think much of God. Anyway, it's been great talking to you, Seriously Disabled, but if you believed in Jesus, you could be cured. Why not try?

What an interesting viewpoint! If you are seriously disabled, if you believe in Jesus - then you could be cured. I don't know, but your belief is essential. And I don't even like God. When I read about all the horrible things he did, I have to agree with you. As for being doomed - we're all doomed. Some will die before others, but in the end, death wins. That's in this world, where Death rules. In the next one, there4 is no death. So nice talking with you. I'll pray for you. Let me know if you start feeling better. Whereas I think his wider experience can teach us something!

Okay, I tried... Who is your God, Immortal? Not the God of Abraham? Who is your God? As for Plotinus... I read a book about Philosophy and he was never mentioned in it. Plato sure was. These Sethians, I have to look them up. What is the Heavenly Father's will? That we should all 'pick up our cross' and follow his Son, Jesus. I can't even understand your answer to this question. Nice talking with you, tho', I'll check on what you said... And as of Jesus. He died on the cross pleading to god, And to father as well in his last words.. Do not say that their are two because it is clearly stated that their is ONE All mighty god. Jesus made many references to old testament as HIS own god being the same one. This is monotheism, This is not polytheism. Do not try and ruin the glory jesus brought to god and do not try and smierre him, Especially if you refer to him AS god because he is what made us all. And what made everything. How can you think little of such? It is impossible for him to be wrong. Jesus was not the son of God - where does he say he IS? He called himself the son of Man, just so there would be no mistake - the same mistake you're making. Don't put your faith in God, put it in Jesus. If you make God your number one, as you seem to have, you could be making a mistake. God is not such a nice person - Once nobody believed in God. Nobody except one man, Noah. So God drownded everybody else (including the unicorns) and when Noah was the only survivor - everybody believed in God. Now, if you think that's admirable, to kill everybody in he world who disagrees with you - that's sick. If you think that's a good way to convert people to your point of view, well I sure don't. That's what I think anyway. That's okay, Superfusion. You believe in 'flaws'? Please explain... That's okay, Superfusion. You believe in 'flaws'? Please explain... There is much said of Gnostics that is not true. I would also advise you not to put too muchu faith in the Gnostic Gospels - I'm a Gnostic and I don't. I mostly like the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, myself. And how did Jesus die? He drownded. When the Roman Soldier stuck a spear in him, out came water and blood. The corpse was waterlogged.

What do I mean by "your god."? I mean your God is the God of Abraham and to tell you the truth I don't like him, from what I've read of him. I mean; I think Eve was right to choose smarts in the garden. I would have advised her to do exactly the same. When faced with eating 'the fruit of the tree of knowledge,' she accepted the challenge, and persuadedr Adam to do the same. Of course 'your god' freaked and kicked them out of the garden - for getting smart - against your god's wishes. No, I don't think much of your god. My God is Jesus and his heavenly Father. I admire the width of your lpearning - who is Plotinus? No Philopsopher - who is he? Obeying ther Holy Father by following Jesus will give me something, I'm sure. Who's Plotinus? He's no Philosopher. And "your god" is the god of Abraham - and I've moved on. I think you would do better to put your faith in Jesus and his Heavenly Father 'who's name is too holy for us to know' 'Hallowed be thy name ...' and 'Thy will be done,' What do you think is the will of Our Father in Heaven? These 'Sethians,' are they the Scythians from the old days? Well, nice talking to you.

The god of the old testament created the world. I think we can agree on that. This world is not perfect. We should be able to agree on that also. The world is imperfect because it was made by an imperfect being - your god. It's not a level playing field. The world favours the rich. If you're rich, life's good. Try being poor - it sucks! Surely you can see these things? Our heavenly father is perfect and everything he creates is perfect - perfectly free to reject the father if it wants. That's what god did - reject the father. gOD looked at himself and thought he was just as good - if not better - than the father. God made the world to compete with the world of the heavenly father. The heavenly father doesn't get his hands dirty with 'materiel.' That's God! I also think Eve was right to choose smarts in the garden. It was she who made Adam smart. This upset god greatly - people getting smart. You would have preferred to be made ignorant. Well, without trying to be mean, I think you are. Gnostics don't commit suicide. They give their lives to Jeseus and (hopefully) die serving him.

I looked thru' the gospels to see how much Jesus talked about god, and it wasn't much. There was the time he said, 'Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto god what is god's.' You must remember he was talking to God's People and that's why he talked about god. He never said he was the son of god. Others said that about him. Jesus called himself 'the son of man,' so there would not be a mistake made.Jesus wasn't mistaken, but when there was no one around, he'd talk to his disciples about the Heavenly Father. In the prayer he gave us, the 'Our Father,' the second line is 'Hallowed be thy name.' That means the Heavenly Father's name is too holy for us to know. We don't know his name - only that it is 'hallowed' or very holy. We 'can't know the Father' - that's not me, that's Jesus. It certainly isn't 'God.' You might enjoy a relationship with God - that's strictly your business. But I'm Jesus'. It's a question of choice, plain and simple. Someone else answered this post - it wasn't me, astrocat5. I don't know who jumped in here!

Jesus didn't lie. He might have talked about god, but perhaps not in a nice way. Much has been lost in the translations - I think you can see this. When they cornered Jesus, they said they were the children of Abraham, and they worshipped the god of Abraham - but Jesus told them they were children of the devil, and they worshipped the devil, else they would be on his (Jesus') side instead of against him. That's John 8 verse 42 and a few more.I'm not so sure Jesus had a high opinion of god. Jesus was always creful to stress that he was 'of the Father.' Liste, that 'god' person is a god of the Jews. Not that I have anything against the Jews - but they're god's children and that's nothing to do with us. When you die, you come to these big 'Pearly Gates.' There's sounds of a great p[arty going on inside and a sign above that says 'God's People Only,' and everybody is pushing and shoving to get in these gates - but me, I'm not one for crowds and this kid on crutches - we find ourselves walking along the wall. And we find this really narrow entrance, and sitting outside it's always this guy or his girlfriend - and they invite us in. And I remember Jesus always said, 'Enter by the narrow gate,' so I think that's the way in. As for God's People, there's just a cliff, and a couple of speakers rigged to pump out party music. There's no turning around, of course. But we make our choices in this world, in our day to day living. You can put your faith in the god of Abraham, or Jesus. I know who I'm choosing.

Probably because you seem to be misjudging the strengths of certain forces and the way that those forces act on one another in different situations. You give no observable examples other than to give what we already observe and say the opposite of what we think is happening, is happening. Not to mention, things don't JUST get sucked into a black hole. They first enter an orbit. We would see such an orbit in the movement of the galaxy clusters. The movement wouldn't be an equal expansion, as we observe now, but would corollate with any orbit we happen to enter. If we entered such an orbit of a blackhole, especially one that big, then we would first notice the clusters entering the orbit either disappear or move very far very quickly. If we were already in orbit, especially an orbit that would draw us into the center, then we would see the clusters around us acting accordingly. Instead they are expanding at an equal rate everywhere. One thing I just remembered you saying also. You said that exspansion is in, like the air at the nozzle of a vacuum. Care to show me where the air at the nozzle of a vacuum expands equally in all directions? I would enjoy seeing that. Expansion just means we're coming apart. The air at the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner is, in a way, falling. The air doesn't see it's going into a nozzle - it just knows it's expanding as it loses pressure. If it's falling into the nozzle, all forces acting on it would seem equal - at any given moment. With all forces seeming to be equal, the air will expand evenly, and not in one direction only.That's what I think, Justin. Now, how about you?

That's okay, I don't mind responding. Spoken like a true mathematician. Unfortunately (for you) Math isn't a science. That's because you can do anything in Math - you can prove two plus two is five. I( myself, can show you, Mathematically that you have eleven fingers, not ten). Science tho' is governed by hard and fast Laws, Laws which were sometimes bitterly fought for, Laws that must be respected. Because I stay away from Math, using only Physics, you say 'I'm waving my hands in the air.' Tesla said, 'Modern Scientists have substituted experiment for math. They go off in equation after equation until they have built something with no relation to reality.' He's a scientist I respect greatly. I don't mind being sent to 'Speculations' - I just wish it had been by a scientist and not a mathematician. Thanks anyway - I'm very pleased with 'Science Forums,' as they have tolerated me so far. I hope it keeps up.

That's okay, I don't mind responding. Spoken like a true mathematician. Unfortunately (for you) Math isn't a science. That's because you can do anything in Math - you can prove two plus two is five. I( myself, can show you, Mathematically that you have eleven fingers, not ten). Science tho' is governed by hard and fast Laws, Laws which were sometimes bitterly fought for, Laws that must be respected. Because I stay away from Math, using only Physics, you say 'I'm waving my hands in the air.' Tesla said, 'Modern Scientists have substituted experiment for math. They go off in equation after equation until they have built something with no relation to reality.' He's a scientist I respect greatly. I don't mind being sent to 'Speculations' - I just wish it had been by a scientist and not a mathematician. Thanks anyway - I'm very pleased with 'Science Forums,' as they have tolerated me so far. I hope it keeps up.

You are missing the deep mystical meaning behind the teachings of Jesus when he says "Father and I are One". The "I" refers to the body and the mind. The "Father" refers to an anthropomorphic God whose objective existence is responsible for the existence of body and mind. The Body and the mind cannot exist independent of the Father which means to say that this world cannot exist without the Father. Saying that Father and I are "ONE" means that you are neither your body nor your mind, You are the "ONE" from which "Father" itself originates. It is in this context that Jesus says "Father and I are one". Its not that he means to say that the human form or the body of Jesus is the Father. It shouldn't be understood in that context. God forms the basis for the objective existence of this world and You form the basis for the existence of God. If God creates you and you create God, then presumably you don't mean the same thing by 'you' in each half of this statement, for then then idea would be absurd. Are you equating one of these 'you's with Holy Ghost? That would make some sense. But how can I believe in a God that I create? If your God is anthropomorhic and objective that's fine. But where does Jesus ask us to believe in any such God? He did not, as Astrocat5 points out. You are not describing the God of Jesus, and probably for the reason Jesus gave as quoted above. . The world is proof of a real God. God is real - as real as the Cosmos. Unfortunately, the (material) Cosmos does not please the Father. When God rejected the Father, he created a 'rival' set of beings, beings that would (he imagined) take over from the Father and restore him (God) to power. That's why God doesn't like it if we kill each other - or worse. Nice chatting to you, Tres.

Jesus never said he was the son of god. He said he was the son of man, just so this wouldn't happen. The prayer he gave us is a prayer to our Heavenly Father, who's name is too holy for us to know. 'You cannot know the father,' Jesus told people. 'He's too high above you.' Then he said that he and the Father were the same. Jesus was certainly not 'God-Incarnate,' as you say. God is a jealous, vengeful god in case you don't know. Jesus was none of these. Of course I believe in Jesus and the things he said. If you want to know Jesus, get his father straight first. Jesus is dead? So how come billions believe in him? He knew beforehand he was going to be crucified - when the time came he said to his father - not my will but thy will. It's the best way, it seems, to get to heaven - the supreme sacrifice - your own life. The Gospels were written some time after his death. That's why there are no eye-witnesses. It MUST be true? I think it's more a matter of faith - you believe or you don't. If you don't believe in Jesus, he won't believe in you... It's like life - a two way street.

1. Please explain to me where I am talking rubbish. It makes pretty good sense to me. One man's rubbish is another man's gold!2. In what way do I disagree with the findings of Science. The big-bang is almost a hundred years old, from somebody Einstein said 'His mathematics are good, but his knowledge of Physics is 'abominable.' Georges LeMaitre. On news that the Observable Universe had been seen to be expanding, he ASSUMED the whole Universe was expanding. Such ASSUMPTIONS are dangerous. Please remember that nobody has seen the expansion of the Universe and it remains unproven to this day. 3. I can justify any of my assertions. The reason we're speeding up is because we're falling due to Gravity - pain and simple - not because we're being pushed by Anti-Gravity. Anti-Gravity doesn't even exist. It's you who are being deluded. 4. Because I say speeding up leads to a loss of pressure? Modern scientists say you need a 'surface' to demonstrate Bernoulli's Theorem, but there are no 'surfaces' in Space. Are you therefore saying Bernoulli's Theorem works only on Earth? That's garbage! Any time you see the words 'Speeding up,' you can be sure that it's followed by a 'Loss of pressure.' 5. Boring? 1700 people have observed this thread. Boring? Hardly. 6. Just because it's new to you, doesn't make it wrong. I read up about the Big-Bang but Mother Nature didn't. Mother Nature says we're speeding up because we're falling due to Gravity. Makes sense to me. Better than Anti-Gravity, I'd say. Maybe you're jealous 'cause you didn't think of that. Your Big-Ban is so complicated you need a Phd in Math to figure it out. But Space isn't complicated - it's all pretty simple. except to you. We're speeding up because we're falling and it's the ever increasing Rate of Acceleration that proves we're falling into a black hole. If there was nothing there at the center of the Universe our Rate of Acceleration would decline all the way to the center. But you don't know everything with Mass must have a Center of Mass. That's not me, actually - that's Physics 101. Nice talking to you, Ophiolite. What's an Ophiolite. Somebody from Ophiuses? So you're an alien?