tar

I do not believe the imagining of something makes it possible.  I believe it works the other way 'round.

When we imagine something it is an "image" of reality.  The images we float though our minds and combine and synthesize in various manners are made up of sensory information we gleaned from reality.  What we thought about before, what we saw, heard, felt, smelt, tasted or experience through any sense, existed, was possible, had to be, in order for us to sense it in the first place.  Our brains "matched" what it imagined against what the eyes, ears, fingers, nose, tongue, inner ear, emotions, pleasure/reward system noticed about reality before.

It is a must that reality fit itself.  It is NOT a must that our image of reality fit reality.  In fact just thinking it, does not manifest into reality that others can experience.  You have to do something to bring it into reality.  You have to communicate your thought, or build a model, or adjust reality in some way to contain your image.

That is, the greater the number of things about reality that have to change in order for your idea about reality to be correct, or possible, the less likely it is that you are correct or that the thing is possible.

If  nothing about reality has to change in order for your image of reality to be correct, then you have it exactly right.

Example.  You cannot contain the universe within your skull.  You brain is a tiny finite size and consist only of images of what actually is.

TAR spherical coordinate system consists of designating the four three points adjacent to the South pole four point as Red, Yellow, Green and Blue, looking at the South Pole, moving counter clockwise around the pole.

Each of the four threepoints becomes the center of rotation of an axis going through the center of the sphere.

These are analogous to the four axis of a tetrahedron. 

Looking at them from the south, each axis can be imagined as putting out an infinite number of great circles that intersect at the other end of the axis on opposite side of the sphere,

The line going through the South pole is the 0/360 line and the other lines are designated in degrees in a clockwise direction around each of the four axis.

Twelve diamonds are described by drawing the great circles at 0 degrees, 60 degrees, 120, 180,, 240, 300 and 360.

The 0, 60, 120 are the same circle as the  180, 240, 300 but retain them all because the intersections of certain of the degrees on the six diamonds that are furthest from the axis ends, around the middle of the sphere, in reference to each axis, allow a description of every possible direction from the center of the sphere with two coordinates.

Diamond 1 through 12 are numbered as follows.

1 Red 180-240 Blue 120-180

2  Yellow 240-300 Blue 60-120

3 Green 300-360 Blue 0-60

4 Yellow 180-240 Red 120 180

5 Green 240-300 Red 60-120

6 Blue 300-360 Red 0-60

7. Green 180-240 Yellow 120-180

8 Blue 240-300 Yellow 60=120

9 Red 300-360 Yellow 0-60

10 Blue 180-240 Green 120-180

11 Red 240-300 Green 60-120

12 Yellow 300-360 Green 0-60

Notice each color appears 6 times, the six 60 sections.

So if you have a point in space at the  center of a sphere, and designate a South pole surrounded by four tetrahedral axis you designate one as Red and the whole system is determined and every direction in space can be designated with color degree, color degree and every point in space describable by adding a distance to the direction.

Copyright Thomas A. Roth Aug 8 2021

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

False dichotomy (that means it's not an either/or situation, and it's intellectually dishonest of you to frame it as such)

Right.  is my point.  The leader of the free world, happened to have enjoyed, as a millionaire, the favors of ladies, in his many encounters with such.  Such ladies often got something for their favors.  It does not make Trump the devil.  There is, in the apt mind, the ability to hold two contradictory ideas.   To denounce a person's treatment of women, while lauding their ability to command the discussion for two years with tweets.

Trump remains the most powerful person in the world.  This is higher status than you or I have achieved.  He must have some capability to rise to this position.   Since he is a millionaire himself, I doubt he was bought, and I don't think he is subject to the pressures that Wellington group or the Koch brothers might bring to bear.   He is an actual strong leader, with good ideas and speaks the truth, rather than playing identity politics.  He gets things done, and takes decisive action.

I think part of the problem, since the election is grief.

Hilary was on her way to be the first woman president, and when she lost, the hopes and dreams of millions were dashed.

I recently lost my dad, and looked up again the five stages of grief.  I knew them from before, as I looked them up when I was getting laid off my job, as everybody else was too, and I recognized the stages of grief being run through by myself and the people around me.    One of the stages is denial, and I think a large part of our country has been in this stage since the election.

If you were a Hillary supporter, look up the five stages of grief and reflect a moment upon which stage you are in.   One day you will arrive at acceptance, but judging by this thread, I would guess it is not imminent. 

Regards, TAR

just noticed I dropped another 3 rep points

no idea why what I am saying is at all wrong or evil

I am out again.  You guys are hopeless. 

You seem to enjoy responding to my posts, so I am thinking I am at least making you think.  Unfortunately I hate neg reps, and don't enjoy accruing them when I make a good argument.  

Sorry to challenge your narrative, but it needs challenging, and the real world needs to be lived in.  You need me and I need you.  The middle ground needs to be inhabited.  

Figure it out on your own.  I am out.   Deleting my favorite.  You are on your own for a while.

Disgusted, TAR

4 minutes ago, swansont said:

Oh, FFS. That was after about a year of open discussion and examination, referring to ACTUAL loopholes. This is disingenuous, even for you.

Except when we've done this in the past, this is not what happened. On what basis can you argue that it will happen this time? Certainly not from listening to CEOs telling us what they'll do. They've already told us they will buy back shares and give dividends to their shareholders. Not hiring, not wage increases.

I have been in corporate America, (a Japanese owned company) and I remember a year were we will losing money and Japan was keeping us open.  I was smoking a cigarette and looking out in the parking lot at hundreds of late model cars, each representing an employee with a family that supported the local shoe maker, day care, grocery store...etc.  I decided that we were winning, just by being in business.

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

Sure, if you just ignore the bipartisan policies they want to implement. IOW ignore the things that contradict your claim. The ol' Texas sharpshooter fallcy.

Meanwhile, you live in a country that is subject to its constitution (in theory, at least). I thought we were discussing the latter, and not the fairy tale of the former.

 

I'm guessing you have to use kelp as an example because all the straw has been used up in your arguments

 

So Swansont,  did the lady that sat with Trump in first class consent to the groping for many minutes and decide to leave when it got to heavy, as I said, or does the incident amount to rape and require the removal of our president from office?

Just now, Ten oz said:

Replace it with what?

How?

How?

Who will pay for this; if us should there be additional taxes or spending cuts to offset that cut?

A structure that allows people to buy as little or as much coverage as they desire, unencumbered by mandates and fines for not purchasing insurance.

By getting the medical community together with the insurers, the hospitals and doctors and structuring a system that works.

Perhaps if we put a 20% tariff on goods coming in from Mexico, we can pay for the wall.

The thought is, as in trickle down, that if employers have more money to spend, they will spend it on research and development, productivity improvements, and wages and salaries, thus spurring the economy and increasing tax receipts, across the board, plus repatriating 20% of off shore income is better than getting 40 percent of zero.

He also campaigned on infrastructure spending, more sensible trade deals and deals with Iran...all things that he is having trouble moving in congress because the dems have a very unsensible no vote prior even reading the proposed legislation.   Nancy famously said we would read what was in Obamacare AFTER we passed it, so please don't use the argument that the republican legislation is brought in the night.

The tea party shutting down government under Obama is no less stupid and non-middle ground seeking, than the dems current stance.

The president does not make the legislation.  He asks for it to be made.  He wants to repeal and replace Obama care, simplify and lower taxes to promote business and reclaim money that has flowed offshore to avoid our punishing tax code,  build a wall to prevent illegal entry of drugs and human traffic into our nation.  He has asked for these things, pushed for these things and given reason for these things.   If the dems don't want to give up progressive goals, and block the legislation at every turn, it is not the president's fault that nothing is getting done.

Ten Oz,

I did not advocate other countries changing their laws to allow our beef.  I brought it up that there are reasons for other countries to ban some of our imports, but not reason to block our other very vetted and tested products in other areas.

Regards, TAR

Ten Oz,

I failed to write legislation, and that is your problem with my position?  That is what the people we elected to congress are there for, to govern.  Currently the only policy the dems have is resist, or impeach.   It is those folks that need to make the hard choices and flesh out the middle ground so that we all can move forward. Make the compromises required to pay the bills. save the world and keep our country rich and strong.  It is folly for the dems to think the world could be saved without the capital, technology and systems in place in our corporations and private businesses.  These entities are not the "rich" that the tax breaks are benefiting at the expense of the poor.  These people are the ones growing the food, building the dams, shipping in resources from around the world, building the factories and airports and ports that make the place tick.  The rich are not our enemy, the rich are all of us in this country.  Our weakest are fatter and more comfortable than the strongest in some countries.  (not literally, but on the whole the case, as there are areas in some countries where shanty towns and filth flowing down the street is easy to find, where most areas of this country, the U.S.A. have indoor plumbing and heated buildings and fully stocked grocery stores, hospitals, universities, hardware stores and gas stations within a short drive, if not walk.

My position is not that we should eat and the rest of the world should starve.  My position is that if I cut down the forest, moved the rocks, plowed and harrowed the fields, planted the grass, and raised some sheep or cows or goats on it, then it is me that gets to choose whether I milk the cow or eat it.   As a society we have parsed things out and arranged things so that we can both eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, and chicken salad for lunch, and a steak for dinner with ice cream for desert.  Other countries can arrange their lives in the same manner should they make the effort.  We have built dams and pumped water from the aquafer to accomplish our way of life.   Others can copy us or do it their own way, but I don't need to eat kelp to save the world for someone else.

Consider a hungry child in an other country.   Where are her neighbors, where are her parents, where are the good people in her country that should be finding her something to eat?   It is not on me.

The growing population is stressing the Earth.  Each human should produce children at the rate they can manage and take responsibility for, given limited resources.  There is not a moral commandment to provide for others before you provide for your own.  

I retain the right to keep my way of life, regardless of the fact that others are not as well off.   If my country is structured to be a better place to live than another then if you are the other, copy me.  If your country is a better place to live then here, then maintain the way of life you have built.  There is no moral commandment that says because of Imperialism, the West should eat Kelp so former colonies can eat corn.  It actually has turned out that because of imperialism we have a global community.

Regards, TAR

As an aside, to illustrate that we are fighting against our selves and not looking to inhabit the middle ground, I was researching who owns the media, to figure out how and why we are so polarized and why people that watch Fox view people that watch CNBC as the enemy and vice-a-versa.  My wife used to work for Time Inc. and Meredith publishing that has the market of magazines for women cornered, bought them for 1.3 billion.   I looked to find out who owns Meredith and the biggest owners are financial investment houses, primarily related to Black Rock.  Going further I keep getting back to a single owner, a private group called Wellington, with a Trillion dollars of assets.    I am pretty sure that what you and I think has a lot to do with what the Wellington group thinks we should think.

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 11:20 AM, Ten oz said:

@ tar I asked you specific policy questions in a post above which you seem to have chosen to ignore. Instead you just continue to post about your feelings. If there is common ground to be had at some point we need to discuss actual policy. After all Trump and Congress are attempting to change policy: taxes, healthcare, NAFTA,TPP, and etc. Other than carrying on about supporting your president what actual policies do you support. What do you believe will be in the tax cut package coming out of the Senate? 

Ten Oz,

Taxes I want to see simplified progressive taxes where low income people  pay little and large income people pay a lot and middle income pay a reasonable amount, with sta ndard deductions to everybody to account for charity and local taxes and such.  Most important is to not penalize small businesses for making money, or to take larger amounts from capital gains income.  Now in my time of life my money is working for me.  It is still my money.  If I benefit from interest or dividends or appreciated value, it should be my money to spend to live. My money is capital for mortgages, car loans, student loans and business loans.  I should be paid a little to loan it out.  Those gains are honest gains,

Healthcare is a mess.  I don't think people should be forced by law to buy insurance.  Neither do I think the government should be responsible for everyone's health care.   People should be in charge of their own lives, make decisions to have babies or smoke or skydive or have unsafe sex or get a procedure or not.  Neither do I think it is the responsibility of an employer to provide healthcare.   Initially strong corporations offered health care plans as a benefit to attract and retain strong employees.   It was never the legal responsibility of an employer to take care of their employees, and there is no reason, by the laws of nature or man where such should be the case.  If you get paid you can buy food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, education, diversion or whatever, according to your needs and desires, and it should not be legislated as to how your money should be spent.

NAFTA  I think Trump is correct to think of America first and not structure the trade agreements to benefit other nations.  We should be sensitive to our policies, regulations and taxes, to cause jobs to go out of country.   Many countries sell their goods in our country and do not allow our good to compete in their countries.  Some of the reluctance to sell our beef in Europe is due to the hormones we inject, and perhaps that is proper to not let such in, as the effects are not clear, and our wheat is perhaps causing obesity and addiction issues here, but most of our products are well engineered and tested and should be allowed in other markets without being made uncompetitive by government subsidies in the other country.  That is , fair trade should be fair to the U.S.  business and consumer and worker.

swansont,

http://heavy.com/news/2016/10/jessica-leeds-donald-trump-groped-on-plane-sexually-assaulted-inappropriately-touched-new-york-times-video-1980s-rachel-crooks/

Tells the same story I told, that she was invited up to first class to sit with Trump and she accepted.  I saw an interview with her where she described the situation exactly as depicted in this article, with the additional information that the petting went on for 10 or 15 minutes, and she only left when his hand went up her skirt.  10 or 15 minutes is a long time to sit there with petting going on, to consider the touching unwanted many years later.

Regards, TAR

many times during the election cycle the actions of Hilary while senator and secretary of State were questioned by Republicans, and counter arguments were launched against Trump concerning his actions as a private citizen

Two different areas of life, with different expected behavior, not directly held up against each other.  If Trump as a millionaire treated women as objects, this does not relate directly to his ability to lead a nation, negotiate with world leaders, or challenge the Washington elite.   There are a lot of industries that build up around government largess.  Some of that needs to be rationalized.

And in an effort to find out what you people consider the middle ground, I would ask what do you think Hilary would have done about the economy, Syria, ISIS, Iran, the Saudis, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, China, the Ukraine, the border, and the Opioid crisis?

5 minutes ago, DrP said:

I have never heard anyone claim that...  Putting your penis in her vagina if she specifically says no though is rape. The world is so backward that in a progressive country such as the UK it was only made illegal about 20 years ago even. The world has a long way to go as we evolve as a species and get away from thinking that a spouse is property. There are many countries where this is still the case....  they are behind with the times and need to change their views.

You state this as a fact...  I don't think it is - it is just fear mongering to keep the poor poor. Maybe they should just not sleep and work through the night too to pay their way in the world - they obviously need to work harder - it is what they deserve I suppose.   

I saw a soda machine at the food counter at a movie house in Blacksburg, where no interaction with a person was required to by your drink.

The woman on the plane with Trump did not say no.  She sat there for 15 or 20 minutes, not denying his advances.  Then got up and went back to her seat.  I saw the interview with her where she states this.   I think the incident happened, but I don't think it was without her consent.

Middle ground requires that one, in addition to protecting a woman from an abusive spouse, protects a non-abusive spouse from being destroyed by a questionable claim.

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

Really? What about the murderers, terrorists, rapist,  the KKK and the likes?

No, but they can change the law and make sure that offenders are punished accordingly.

Really?  I did not know...  although not surprised due to the strong Christian domination over your politics...  as I said, it has only been 20 years since we out lawed it here and that was probably due to the European Court of Human rights (which we are about to abandon . ) -  I assumed it was just illegal in the states.   

Sodemy is illegal some places, and was illegal some places where it is no longer.  Since when does the  progression of the human race require sticking a penis in someone's ass hole?

SwansonT,

half?

The point is, a president should not be against her citizens at all.

I heard a democrat official, talking about people that were in town to demonstrate for keeping the statues, like they were so evil as to not be allowed to exist.  

No matter what you or I think about David Duke or a group of students demonstrating for the right to display the confederate battle flag, they are citizens of this country and as long as they do not break any laws or hurt anyone, or interfere with anybody's civil liberties, they are allowed to exist in this country.

A president can not be against his or her population.  She cannot ask them to leave, because they do not measure up to her moral standards.

Regards, TAR

and 44 million of us, in the US own guns

and those that own guns want to own them, and don't agree with you that not having them would be better

if you are after middle ground, you have to entertain the desires of these 44 million fellow Americans.

1 minute ago, Strange said:

Really? You have resorted to making stuff up now, to support your case. You have certainly learnt a lot from The Donald.

I read a piece, I know not where, that argued a husband could rape his wife, based on the wife saying it was rape, after the fact.

and this is not fiction

look at all the people coming out of the woodwork, claiming sexual assault and sexual abuse after 40 years

dimreepr,

That is my point.  Dems think that touching your wife butt, without her permission is sexual abuse.

So the wife is mad I didn't take out the garbage, and she calls the police when I slip my hand down her pants.

There really is sexual abuse.  Redefining what qualifies, does nobody any good.

Regards, TAR

Thread,

Thank you for your condolences.  My dad gathered us a few weeks ago and told us he wanted that we should not be sad.  That is not going real well for me but I am trying.  I understand that the world is different now, because we don't have him in it any longer.  Big loss for everybody.  Now you guys only have me to fill his shoes.   Not easy shoes to fill, he was a special guy.

The choice on election day was between Trump and Hilary, not a choice between evil and good.  Hilary had relegated me and 46 million other people into a basket of deplorables.   I am not, and never have been deplorable. I am a solid citizen and will continue to be such.  Trump will never be the dictator you guys fear.  Our country is structured to not allow that.

There are arguments against any action a person or a country can make.  The middle ground is achieved by accepting the arguments of all sides, and governing, by making the hard choices in terms of how to proceed.    Take any argument, and look at both sides, all sides, and see who wins and loses and what people and ideas are served in various combinations of actions.  There is NEVER a right and wrong way to go.  This is what is so stupid about all dems voting one way and all repubs voting the other.  There is no possible way that it could just so happen that an action is 100% wonderful to people wearing red shoes and 100% evil to people wearing blue shoes.

Raising the min wage would cause fast food places to automate.

Disallowing the burning of coal would leave coal miners out of work, and shift heavy manufacturing, were high heat smelting and such are required, to other countries.  And the silly thing is, we then would ship our coal to the other countries and the Earth would suffer the burning any way.

Making pot smoking legal in NJ would frustrate the education campaign we are waging in NJ to have young minds find natural highs, and would confuse young people as to what the law is considering that pot is a controlled substance on the Federal level.  That is, using pot would be legal in NJ and you could get fired from your corporate job.

It is never a black and white, yes and no, extreme position wins situation.   It is our duty as intelligent folk.  The top 10 percent of people in terms of intelligence and capability, to find the middle ground, and to on purpose pull ourselves away from the easy feel good argument.   

If governing were not hard, anybody could do it.  I had a strong feeling that Hilary, who was proud to be enemy of the Republicans, the drug companies and the Iranians, would have a hard time being my president.  So, together with the possibility that her carelessness gave up state secrets to foreign adversaries, and a general feeling that she did not have the weight to stand up against Putin, and Assad and Iran and North Korea and a hundred other indications I had, that Trump was a better negotiator and a stronger, more capable leader, I pulled the lever for Trump.

North Korea did not start being a problem when Trump was elected.  They were already an enemy.  We have been at war since I was young.  All the missiles and bombs and artillery pieces, computer hacking capability, nerve agents and all the other ways the regime has devised to kill the horrible Americans was already in place.  Other presidents made mistakes and kicked the can down the road.  Trump has met the threat and sees the best way to adjust the attitude of North Korea is to have China do it.  So he negotiates with China.

Regards, TAR

just thought of a for instance

Let's say dems put in place a law that says sexual abusers can not own weapons, at the same time they make a law that says touching a woman's butt constitutes sexual abuse. 

That would mean no one would be allowed to own a weapon, as most everyone has touched a woman's butt.

what makes the middle ground desirable to look for, is that I am fine with both gun ownership, and touching women's butts and there have been women that have not objected, in fact appreciated the touch, and many folks own guns and never robbed a bank or murdered anyone

in fact, we should be concerned about taking control out of individual's hands and giving it to the government

If everybody owned a gun, there is no way Trump or Hilary, could become dictator, for instance.

And if we disallowed touching each other's butts, we might address the overpopulation issue, but we would not have near as much fun living.

Thread,

This has devolved into a hate Trump thread.  

As much as one can denounce all business men for that one that screwed you, one should encourage the other 100,000,000 that were honest fiduciaries of your belongings.

I often consider being right about things, the most important thing.  But the world is too complicated to be right about everything, all the time.   You have to put your faith in other people, to look after your interests.

In the Army I once wrote an opinion piece to Stars and Stripes, that was published.  It talked about people sometimes mistaking compassion for weakness, and it talked about giving up a few of your rights for others and how 180 million people would give up a few of their rights for you.

46 Million people voted for Trump.  These are the same people that you pass in the street, that fight and die for you, that pick up your garbage, that pray for peace in church and give to charities, that run your company, that invest your 401, that give loans to startup business, that build the ports and universities that make your way of life possible.   

It is not that we have 46 million dupes and deniers of facts in our country.  It is that we have 46 million TAR's.  Regular people, that own businesses, make investments, loan money, build stuff, solve problems, fix stuff, and take care of the place and each other.

My dad died yesterday morning.  The guy in the bottom left of my profile picture.  He was a brilliant man. A democrat. He served in the united states army fighting Hitler on a hill by the Saar river, where a machine gun bullet ripped through a nerve in his shoulder.  He was sent to  an orthopedic hospital instead of a neurological hospital and after months passed because of infection, he was finally operated on, back in the states, but the nerve had retracted and when attached it was too short and his left hand was crooked and not very functional.  His dream of being a surgeon was dashed.   He went to Muhlenberg got his masters at Lehigh and his doctor of psychology at Temple.  He taught at Upsala college in East Orange and was a psychologist in private practice in New Jersey.  He saved a lot of lives anyway.

He didn't understand why I voted for Trump.  Like you guys.  Like all the Trump haters. My sister doesn't understand, my cousin in law doesn't understand, and political discussions this thanksgiving are potentially dangerous to family cohesion.  And we, you and I, cannot resolve the differences of opinion here.   Nor should we. The differences are real. But important to family cohesion is the fact that we love each other, and want to see each other succeed in life, be free, and respected and protected from the evils of the world.  More important to love each other, than to be right.  Sometimes being right is the wrong thing to do.

So my suggestion for the table this Thanksgiving is to listen and to think about how the other is right, before you open your mouth.  And decide, before you speak, if being right is more important than having a family and a country, that will protect you from the evils of the world.

It is not important what you think Trump believes about global warming.  It is important what we as Americans, do every day, about it.

We are the same 320 million caring, capable people now, as we were, before the election.

 Happy Thanksgiving.

Regards, TAR

SwansonT,

He  gets things done.  He went to Seoul in person and gave a great speech about the wonderfulness of what South Korea has accomplished since the Korean war and how it was important to denuclearize the North, and he got a standing ovation from the parliament there. (This is at a time when 10,000 artillery pieces are aimed directly at where he stood.)  He attended a Pacific area summit and one shot had scores of leaders walking together with the president of the United States front and center. He just had a call with Putin about peace in Syria and Crimea and working together to reel in North Korea.

And you are still waiting for him to be impeached over something or another that has not been proven to have ever even occurred.

Sad.

Regards, TAR 

On the Access Hollywood tape, I used to joke with my family that I didn't wear shorts because my legs were so attractive that when women saw them they would get weak knees, faint, have car accidents and such, so it was better if I wore long pants.  These things never happened.  I also remember fibbing to associates, hinting that I was not a virgin, when I still was.  In fact, I think when I stopped talking about sex with others was when I was actually having sex with others.  This would indicate to me, that there is a strong possibility that Trump never grabbed anybody's pussy that didn't let him grab it.

3 hours ago, Strange said:

That is a dangerous attitude. It sounds like you are saying the president can't be criticised because he is the president. Next step: dictatorship.

Pathetic.

It is nothing to do with panic. He has DENIED it.

If we take action early enough, we may not have to. Prevaricate (and deny) for too long and it may require more drastic measures.

Actually, it is probably already too late. Lifestyles will have to change.

 

Strange,

I remember not liking how Hilary was handling the Arab spring, and the various interference in other countries our state department orchestrated through the internet.  It seemed to me that the Kings that controlled their countries were more important as stabilizing factors than an amorphous foreign internet fostered global initiative to bring freedom and human rights to these areas...but she was my secretary of state, and women's rights and standing against oppression and human trafficking and such were important goals to me, so I considered that is what my secretary of state was doing, so that is what I was doing in the world.   I criticized but did not disavow her actions.  It was still the U.S. imposing our will on the world.  And the president was making certain moves in Iraq and Syria and Crimea, and letting American's get their heads chopped off, in ways that made me feel he was doing the wrong thing, but I still backed everything he did, as he was my president, he killed Bin Laden, and brought us out of a deep recession.  He was my president.  I just had to wait 4 years to have someone in the seat that was more aligned with my thinking.   Then I had to wait another 4 years, as he got reelected, but I always thought of him as my prestident.  Proud of his accomplishments, and critical of his failures.

There is absolutely no way a dictatorship could form in this country.   I know places to go and people to band together with, that would fight such a thing.   We have the same 320 million people here now, as we did before the election.  You need not fear any one man could destroy this country.

He did not deny global warming he downplayed humans causing it.  So he is not denying facts, he is questioning the import of the problem.  As in not ready to be told by the world how to live our lives.  You think we are past the turning point.  I don't think so.  It is more important now to use all our energy sources in the cleanest most sustainable way we can manage, and not be held hostage by a global consortium to a certain standard of living.   In other words we can and should police ourselves, but refuse to be policed by the world.  Other countries are obligated to do the same.  We don't force them to live the way we want them to live.  Everyone makes the choice on their own.

Lifestyles don't have to change.  We can simply come up with a strategy to lower the temp of the Earth 1.8 degrees in the next 200 years.  Perhaps some heat exchange system that cooled the Earth with the temperature of the upper atmosphere, or some white inert Styrofoam balls we could release on vast expanses of ocean to reflect sunlight back to space, and then collect them to let the sea and the life below absorb the sunlight again.  But we have a lot of people to make comfortable.  Maybe we should structure our tax law to not encourage large families.  You can have them if you want, but maybe you should not have more than you can afford, on your own.   Cruel, perhaps, but if we are talking survival of the planet, I think it more important to get runaway population growth under control than to say I can not drive to visit my daughter in Va. (should I use up my carbon dioxide credits or whatever solution you have in mind.)

Regards, TAR

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

As tar's contradictions apply to this thread 

His electoral win was 46th out 58. It was one of the closer electoral wins in history. Claiming it was "substantial"is just another lie.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/18/us/elections/donald-trump-electoral-college-popular-vote.html

Nope, already linked you Trump and Spicer specifically arguing about the physical crowd size. Arguing about tv ratings and etc was the pivot.

How convenient. You see a virtue of sorts to his lying. 

Examples?

The Senate voted in an overwhelmingly bipartisan manner (98-2) to sanctions Russia for what they did during the election and Trump has been sitting on those sanctions and casting doubts about what actually happened. You approved of that?

What has Trump accomplished with regards to Syria or ISIS?

What is Trump's actually policy regarding North Korea? Trump's talk is loud but what is the actual policy? I am not impressed by Trump saying the U.S. will retaliate if North Korea attacks; no duh. t

Lifestyles change all the time. I use to have a hard line phone, VHS player, and a tower based computer. The average person use to never travel further than 20 miles from the place of there birth in a lifetime. Fear of change is useless and feeding on that fear to justify stagnation always leads to trouble. 

Ten Oz,

Substantial enough.  More substantial than any victory other than Obama's victories this century.   You can not call the use of the word substantial a lie.   

I saw the weak crowds, the same as everybody else did.  The anti Trump forces hammer the fact.  There were elected officials that even boycotted the inauaceguration.  I was their duty to a peaceful transition to attend.  Instead they boycotted the inauguration and started a not my president movement.   For what?  Love of truth?  Attempting to inhabit the middle ground?   Attempting to heal the divides of a divisive campaign?  No.  To double down on never Trump rhetoric AFTER he was elected president of the U.S..

Regards, TAR

 Gees,

Another thing to think about in terms of non-private stuff, that is not written or spoken language, but that does communicate some mental state between humans, is mirror neurons.

These are the little devils thought to be responsible for us physically flinching when the comedian  (or distracted layperson) on the tv walks into the pole.   Or when we grimace when the needle goes into someone's arm, or the scalpel slicing into someone's skin.  We feel it,  we wince we duck we flinch and we do it cause of mirror neurons.

These feelings are not limited to physical stimuli, as we also laugh when others laugh, smile when others smile, cry when others cry and jump up and down when others jump up and down.

So I am not so sure a thought of recognition or some "aha" moment can not sweep through a crowd.  Consider a show where the comedian tells a joke, and everyone gets it at different times but a groan comes from the crowd, together.   Or a baseball game where the ball comes off the bat and everybody "knows" by the angle and speed, where it is likely to wind up, and what that means to the score. 

Or consider a crowds reaction to a line, or a musical score?   Thought or emotion?

Regards, TAR

https://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2017/01/trump-inauguration-streaming-audience-234056

Yes, everybody I was for Kasich and after the Comey Wiener stuff I decided to vote Trump instead of Hilary.  What changed?  I suppose I found Trump actually refreshingly honest compared to the politicians that usually run the place.  He is definitely not a lawyer, and says things he feels straight out.  He is narcissistic and never apologizes, but he does not drink. does not smoke, cares about America and our standing in the world, and does what he says.  He destroyed 12 very capable candidates in the GOP primary, and orchestrated a substantial electoral victory.  (Even though Hilary got 3 million more votes.)

But he is my president.   Along with me, 46 million other Americans voted for him.  And more importantly more electoral college votes went to him than to anybody else.  That means he got the popular vote in more states than he lost the popular vote.   He is the selection of the voters in my country.  As soon as he took the oath of office he was our president, due the respect of the office.  He speaks for me, he speaks for you, (if you are a citizen of this country) and much of the hatred toward him was established by his opponents during the race.

But this thread is about truth, and the middle ground.   It is true that the side by side pictures were taken at different times, that security measures and demonstrations and such slowed the flow of people to the mall.  It is true that Obama's first inauguration drew huge numbers more that Trump.  It is true that Reagans tv numbers were 41 million and Trumps 20, and it is true that 16 million streamed the inauguration on CNN.  Spicer is not lying to say the audience was the largest ever.   

Middle ground wise, it is possible to understand that Trump's parade route was sparse and the crowd disappointing, and still understand that the things he said about the crowd and his world wide audience were true.

He lies through his teeth, the way a salesman lies, that will hype the product.  This is not entirely a bad thing for a president, in terms of  talking up the economy, talking down the North Korean leader and saying a carrier group is on the way, even though it was in Australia.

I tend to frame it now as hyperbole, not lies.  There is much truthful substance behind Trump's actions and words since the election.  Yet he gets little love from you guys and gals.  He does not really care though, in terms of executing the responsibilities of the office.  He does the right thing, and calls you fake news for spinning it backward.

I think he has handled Russia and Syria and ISIS and North Korea, and our economy masterfully.   Yet you guys consider him a liar for the crowd thing, and a sex offender for the access Holywood tape, and under Putin's thumb because you think Putin has blackmail video of him in a hotel room in Moscow, and a colluder because his campaign entertained some offers of dirt on Hillary from the Russians.  And a global warming denier, because he is not as panic stricken as you guys are about it. Yes it is getting warmer.  Yes the industrial age is the culprit. No we should not surrender our life style because of it.  

Consider the slight to our nation, when Obama went to China and they did not provide a state welcome and did not wheel the big red carpet stairs up to airforce one.

Then consider the welcome Trump has received from the Saudis and the Chinese.

Which makes you feel the president was doing it right?

Regards, TAR

Stange,

Well slow down a bit.

I told you about the audience being a world wide audience.  Trump is a ratings guy.  Many people around the country and the world watched.  Possibly the largest audience ever.  In person attendance Obama won hands down. The largest audience claim remains highly possible.

(There were no gun homicide victims in Chicago that day.)

This is exactly the kind of spin and misinformation that underlies the claim that Trump is a liar.  The Times documents all those "lies" and each one can be explained as an exaggeration or the words can be taken wrong and spun as a lie, when he actually said a true thing.   For instance here, he did not say two people were killed that day, he said two people were shot.

Regards, TAR

Take illegal voting in California for instance. Lets say it was not millions.  Lets say it was 10 or 100 or a 1000 or 10000 or a million 999 thousand, it would still not be a lie to suggest there were illegal votes cast, where people lied on forms concerning their citizenship and voted absentee.  Or somebody took elderly ballots and filled them out and sent them in, or any number of other ways an illegal vote could have been cast.  The system is rigged to not check on these things, under the guise that checking would be voter suppression.

You guys are pretty rough, giving me down votes in a tread about truth mattering, for telling the truth. 

Its restbit time again.  I will let you guys flail around in your own self righteous lies, on your own.  I am out. For a longer while.

Ten Oz 

swansonT was quick to call my pay off figures false propaganda, and he posted payoff figures of 1 to 4 years to refute Trumps claim that it would take more years to payoff the cells than they would last

and calls Trump the denier of fact

the figures swansonT gave told nothing of the cost of manufacturing, transporting, installing and maintaining the cells so they did not address the economic payoff at all

You guys are really reaching, to call Trump a liar.

He is actually just telling the truth.

Regards, TAR

Also Thread,

If you don't like my choice of Trump for president, you can do nothing about it,  If you are trying to interfere with the governance of my country then you are as suspect as Putin.   So if we are to talk socialist vs capitalist or environmentalist against oil magnate, we can go ahead and talk about those things, but the taxes I pay my governments local, state and country and what I expect in return is my business.  If we are a good country that you wish to emulate than do it.  If you wish to fix us, fix yourself first, then give suggestions.   I am not required to pledge allegiance to Canada or the U.K. you guys are my allies against ISIS and Russia and such and we share a continent and an ocean so we are neighbors, but your politics are your business my politics are mine.  The global government does not exist yet.

Regards, TAR

Ten Oz,

Philosophical views?   That is the reality of life Ten Oz.

Regards, TAR

death and taxes

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/curtis-dubay/1-percenters-pay-24-percent-and-top-10-percent-pay-533-percent-all-federal

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Citations needed.

You think businesses are constructing solar arrays if they are bad investments?

You use an inverter to generate AC. And add "valuable real estate" to the list of citations needed. How expensive is the real estate being used?

Nothing? There are no government protections in place, acting as safeguards for your pension?  If some ne'er-do-well tried to abscond with the funds, the government would not be involved in apprehending them, and returning the money?

Let's have some examples — in equal dollar amounts, for fairness's sake. Wouldn't want to have any false equivalencies, would we? Since the GOP is currently trying to give the rich $1.5 trillion, let's have example of that amount of welfare fraud. 

 

Any actual evidence that the leaks weren't coming from the current administration?

Is there some reason that such workings of government should be carried out in secrecy, such that people have to scramble to respond?

Take more? As in more than the 91% marginal rate that was in place several decades ago, or the 70% in place in 1980, or the rate under Clinton? Or are you talking about the rate after it was cut by Bush II, and which has been found to not help economy much at all? 

SwansonT,

There are massive government subsidies involved with solar array placement.  You know this.  Every call you get on the phone from some solar panel installation group starts with the statement that you can get this installed for free.  Free for who?  Who is footing the bill?  Some government grant money or subsidy program, no doubt.  I don't have any citations but I was in the copier field and we leased out equipment. When you buy a house you take out a mortgage.  If it takes 26 years for the initial investment to be paid off, in terms of lower payments to the electrical grid providers, then the fact that your investment will stop working after 10 years, is a significant non starter.

The valuable real estate I was thinking about was along Rt. 206 in central Jersey where there is a field I was thinking about, being where could be office buildings, factories, apartments, gas stations, convenience stores and whatever.  Not built in a clearing or on a south facing mountain slope, off the beaten path.

I take our police and courts and laws and army as a stipulation, and as the basic reason we pay taxes and have a government.   The government is not primarily made to make us happy, it is there to protect our right and ability to pursue happiness.  To set the rules and establish the playing field.  We still have to suit up and compete on that field, with a spirit of sportsmanship and common purpose. 

Um, I take exception to your characterization that the GOP is giving the rich something by not taking something from them that was their's in the first place.  The numbers do not have to match.  The people that are getting welfare or transfer payments, are getting something.  The people paying taxes are loosing something.   The wealth is going in one direction in the transaction, from the rich to the poor.  So already there is givers and takers in the equation.  I need not cite any numbers.  Bernie already has told us how the wealthiest 1 percent have a larger than 1 percent share of the wealth in this country.  The fact you are denying is that this wealthiest 1 percent also already pays more than 1 percent of the taxes paid into the federal government.   In fact, in addition to paying a large percent of the taxes into the federal government, they also pay a large percentage of the wages in this country, employing many of us.  So their contribution to the system is already firmly established.   Taking away loopholes, while keeping the highest tax bracket very high is not giving the rich anything.

The administration has the right and the reason to have people under it that follow lawful orders.

In the case of the ban, it would be important not to let the cat out of the bag to where people coming here to hurt us would do so quickly before the ban, or be alerted if they were on their way.

The marginal rates are much higher than is fair for high income individuals.  Common religions would set the rate given to the poor as 10%.   Anything more is unfair.   Especially if lower income people are forgiven the expectation that they give 10 percent.    10 percent of a million is 100,000 dollars.   If a guy would give the government 100,000 I would say he is doing his part.   If a guy earning 10,000 were to give the government 1000 I would say he is doing his part.   So if we are forgiving people any tax liability on their first chunk, and asking for a percentage on their next chunk, and a higher percentage on their next chunk, this is fair to everybody and take most from the wealthiest.  Already.  

Regards, TAR

Phi,

Your link was talking about energy payback. That is how long does a PV need to operate to create the amount of energy it takes to produce it.  This might be a couple of years, but this says nothing about the cost of the cell and how long it would take to be economically feasible to use. Nor does it state whether the energy it took to produce was clean energy or Sulphur producing energy. (we have to pollute now, to have clean energy later?)

At the time of this writing, the installed cost of solar panels was between $7-$9 per watt: A 5 kW system would cost around $25,000-$35,000. Many utility companies offer incentives, and some subsidize as much as 50% of system costs.

Average electrical bill is about 126 a month. So if you used no electricity from the grid and got all you needed from your roof, the investment would pay off in 20 years.  But it is not always sunny, and there might be weeks your cells are snow and ice covered and you might have had to have cut down carbon sequestering trees to have your cells unshaded, and they might break or become less efficient or require replacement, before the 20 years is up.

Regards, TAR

and if I put an array on my roof, I would still have to burn gas to heat my water, my house, and my food

dimreepr,

The advantages I was born with have a lot to do with the character and capability of my parents, and the character and capabilities of my country.  I acknowledge that the U.S. is a better place than some poor country run by a warlord.

But this is exactly an argument for us making our own luck.  The fact that I pledged allegiance to my flag every morning in school, went to college, campaigned for McGovern, was part of the counter culture revolution, served in the Army,  worked every day for many decades, paid my taxes, raised two capable respectful girls, keep a nice house and yard and garden for others to look at on the way by, proves I did my part to make this country a better place to be, than some poor country with a despot in charge.

Regards, TAR

Strange,

I am saying "We..., we...., we....."   As many many folk, pledge their allegiance to the American flag, many many folk work every day, pay their taxes, raise their children and respect each other.  That is what makes this place work.

Regards, TAR