Luc Turpin

I am not the only one broadening the definition, others in the references are doing the same, because data is forcing all of us to do so! It's not because we dislike the results or have difficulty defining terms that we should be ignoring all of it. You picked on one specific area without responding to the rest. That, to me, appears to be cherry picking. And, I knew when putting that particular part of the text (The Secret Language of Cells document) that it would elicit exactly this kind of reaction. We are glad to say that we are descendants of animals when it pleases us, but then negate that when it comes to intelligence? I also thought that it was anthropomorphism until I went through the pile of studies describing what cells can actually do. Cell intelligence is the precursor to all forms of intelligence, and all plants and animals and us-humans are all made up of cells. It is our main fundamental physiological characteristic. I appreciate the discussion. Amitié (friendship) Everything can be streched until it makes no sense. We have cells, animals have cells, plants have cells and possibly communicate in the same way. And, communication is a key part of intelligence. This at least needs to be investigated further, or do we decide what nature should be instead of her telling us what she is. I fielded a hypothesis, let's determine if it is right or wrong or maybe through science and facts. And if the hypothesis that I (not only mine) put forward is correct, then let's deal with its impact on evolution.

Some form of undefinable intelligence is at play in nature The Secret Language of Cells Note: For those that say that I am cherry picking my results; see text below “The overwhelming conclusion of the best current research is that all process in the human body, in all animals and plants, and in microbe communities as well, are based on conversation and group decision making amongst cells.” “Cell conversation are also important when considering mechanisms of evolution and the origin of intelligence in nature. Are cells intelligent? Could cellular language of signaling be related to intelligence in creatures? Unfortunately, it is not possible to answer these questions because there is no confirmed definition of intelligence. Nor are there serviceable definitions of awareness or consciousness; we say that cells are alive, but our definition of life is inadequate. For example, many researchers don’t consider viruses to be living entities, yet viruses have very elaborate lifestyles, with the ability to specifically counter actions of large complex cells through signaling and other processes.” “What can be said is that biology is based on information transfer. Ubiquitous transfer of information among cells somehow leads to actions of much larger and more complex organs and a multitude of organism, which include animals and plants. In current biology, information transfer begins with chemical reactions, DNA codes, RNA codes, and the exact shape of proteins, lipids and sugars. Cellular communication uses these information codes as signals.” “Information codes also exist at every level of biology across six orders of magnitude – from molecules to humans. At the molecular scale, information is in the form of chemical signals, at the scale of human societies, information is encoded in mathematics and language. It in not known how this flow of information is directed and organized at either of these levels.” "All of the following can serve as signaling devices: secreted chemicals launched sacs filled with genetic instructions electric currents electromagnetic waves physical contact by cells biological nanotubes between cells" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610717301748 “It is argued here that the essential processes of cognition, response and decision-making inherent in living cells transcend conventional modelling, and microscopic studies of organisms like the shell-building amoebae and the rhodophyte alga Antithamnion reveal a level of cellular intelligence that is unrecognized by science and is not amenable to computer analysis.” https://storage.googleapis.com/natureasia-assets/ja-jp/ndigest/pdf/v5/n3/ndigest.2008.080334.pdf “It is well-established that cells receive, interpret and adjust to environmental fluctuations, says microbiologist James Shapiro of the University of Chicago, Illinois. But if the results stand up, he says, “this paper would add a cellular memory to those capabilities”” https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-clues-about-the-origins-of-biological-intelligence/ “In fact, intelligence—a purposeful response to available information, often anticipating the future—is not restricted to the minds of some privileged species. It is distributed throughout biology, at many different spatial and temporal scales. There are not just intelligent people, mammals, birds and cephalopods. Intelligent, purposeful problem-solving behavior can be found in parts of all living things: single cells and tissues, individual neurons and networks of neurons, viruses, ribosomes and RNA fragments, down to motor proteins and molecular networks. Arguably, understanding the origin of intelligence is the central problem in biology—one that is still wide open. In this piece, we argue that progress in developmental biology and neuroscience is now providing a promising path to show how the architecture of modular systems underlies evolutionary and organismal intelligence.” http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/htmltxt.htm “intelligence is a fractal property or/and an emergent property: ...Intelligent ecologies contain intelligent populations, which contain intelligent organisms, which contain intelligent cells, which contain intelligent compartments, which contain...and so forth.” https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627571-100-the-secrets-of-intelligence-lie-within-a-single-cell/ “LATE at night on a sultry evening, I watch intently as the predator senses its prey, gathers itself, and strikes. It could be a polecat, or even a mantis – but in fact it’s a microbe.” https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.25.449951v1.full “Although intelligence has been given many definitions, we can associate it with the ability to perceive, retain, and use information to adapt to changes in one’s environment. In this context, systems of living cells can be thought of as intelligent entities.” https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233710423_On_Intelligence_in_Cells_The_Case_for_Whole_Cell_Biology “Living cells within the body are modelled in this paper as coordinated but essentially autonomous entities. We shall see how independent cells in nature have remarkable abilities to make decisions and take constructive action, which correlate with the definitions of intelligence.” https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-023-01518-4 “Simultaneous spatiotemporal transcriptomics and microscopy of Bacillus subtilis swarm development reveal cooperation across generations” https://scitechdaily.com/single-cells-are-more-intelligent-than-scientists-previously-thought/ “Single Cells Are More Intelligent Than Scientists Previously Thought” https://phys.org/news/2023-11-extracellular-vesicles-exchange-genetic-cells.html “Study show extracellular vesicles exchange genetic information between cells in the sea” https://phys.org/news/2023-11-underground-fungi-forests.html “How underground fungi shape forests” https://jonlieffmd.com/blog/plant-intelligence-primer-update-2015 Current research has uncovered many specific signals that produce decision-making in plants: · Plants respond to light changes during different times of day including shade, length of day, seasons and daily circadian rhythms. Plants respond individually to the wavelengths of ultraviolet, green, far red, blue and red. · Plants respond to temperatures in a variety of ways including the ability to calculate the number of days at specific temperature ranges. Plants respond to freezing with many defensive mechanisms. · Plants respond to many mechanical factors including sound, wind, touch, being moved and shaken and other vibrations. · Plants have elaborate mechanisms to respond to all aspects of water including too little, too much, and salt in water. · Plants respond to gravity in a variety of ways including sending roots down and shoot up, as well as bending, and weight of branches. · Plants can determine many qualities of soil including obstacles for roots, surface structures, and the elements in the soil such as clay, sand and stones. · Plants respond to electricity and send electrical signals. · Plants sense and distinguish differences between airborne chemicals including oxygen, CO2, mist, C2H4, NO. They help respond to nearby plants and roots, as well as predators. · Plants sense and distinguish many chemicals and qualities including acidity and alkalinity, insecticides, calcium, heavy metals, potassium, boron, nitrates, and phosphates. · Plants respond to their environment and space available. At times, they participate in re engineering of the environment, such as building up banks of soil. They are aware of and respond to plants that are nearby. · Plants are aware of their relatives and respond. https://phys.org/news/2023-11-silky-ants-aphids-medicine-sick.html “Silky ants turn to aphids for medicine when sick” https://phys.org/news/2023-10-honey-bees-inherit-altruistic-behavior.html “Honey bees may inherit altruistic behavior from their mothers” https://www.britannica.com/science/animal-intelligence-animal-behaviour Animal intelligence https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZM9GpLXepU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6ChEmjsXCM A bit of fun Erratum - Forgot citation marks on text on decision-making in plants.

First line -Having a long neck is not as effective as what you do with the neck Second line - The choices its members make do affect that path. Plants and cells do much more than communicate. Intelligence is defined for wild plants and its role in fitness identified. Intelligent behaviour exhibited by single cells and systems similarity between the interactome and connectome indicates neural systems are not necessary for intelligent capabilities. Plants sense and respond to many environmental signals that are assessed to competitively optimize acquisition of patchily distributed resources. Situations of choice engender motivational states in goal-directed plant behaviour; consequent intelligent decisions enable efficient gain of energy over expenditure. Comparison of swarm intelligence and plant behaviour indicates the origins of plant intelligence lie in complex communication and is exemplified by cambial control of branch function. Error correction in behaviours indicates both awareness and intention as does the ability to count to five. Volatile organic compounds are used as signals in numerous plant interactions. Being complex in composition and often species and individual specific, they may represent the plant language and account for self and alien recognition between individual plants. Game theory has been used to understand competitive and cooperative interactions between plants and microbes. Some unexpected cooperative behaviour between individuals and potential aliens has emerged. Behaviour profiting from experience, another simple definition of intelligence, requires both learning and memory and is indicated in the priming of herbivory, disease and abiotic stresses. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2016.0098 You do not need a brain to be intelligent; cells are intelligent in their own manner; please have a look at "The Secret Language of Cells". Evidence based studies were used in preparation of this book. I might be mistaken, but this looks a lot like intelligence to me. I reiterate, I am not saying that only intelligent species evolve, I am saying the all living things are intelligent, even plants without brains. There are no living things without some form of intelligence, so all species evolve. Point well taken. I will take time to prepare a response with more pointed definition and see if it is more helpfull in discussing evolution. As for "guided" evolution, I was definitly not the first to coin the term. I am starting from the point that all living things have some sort of intelligence, meaning that they are making choices based on information, which helps them survive and procreate and pass on their germ lines to the next generation. That is the kind of "guided" evolution that I am talking about. I am also saying that randomness has a lot to do with the matter of evolution. Am-I wrong? I am trying to be as intelligent as I can be. We all have our limitations, but it is maybe the subject matter, not the messenger, that is at stake here. Ludicrous is the idea or ludicrous is the person? or both? which makes communication more difficult.

Will respond this afternoon or evening, thanks!

I did not say that evolution created intelligence, but intelligence emerged from the living and then became one of the driving forces in evolution. am-i correct that this is not circular? if so, I will have to think hard about it? my starting premise is that intelligence is in all living things, so if it is then there would a definitive evolutionary advantage to use it in order to survive, therein the theory of guided intelligence let me know if I am faulty here also.

Appart from disagreeing with your statement, what does it contribute to the discussion? I may not be smart enough to understand the point that you are making. Who are we to say that ant life does not matter. If it is only by chance that we are here, then our lives also do not matter. Bringing intelligence into the mix at the very least gives us the opportunity to manipulate our environment for which no proof is needed if you look outside your window.

Intelligence emerged from matter, and then evolved by increasing its domination over the environment. This is one way at least forintelligence to have evolved. No need for Jesus in guided evolution You would be surprised by how intelligent cells can be and they have no brains. Just the cilia and its role of scrutinizing the outside (of cell) world is astonishing. I can hear some of you laugh already, but you would also be surprised by the level of communication between plants. A good book to start with is the "Secret Language of Cells" by Jon Lieff.

Guided evolution does not need the environment to be intelligent, only organisms. But organisms do shape their environment, at least their immediate one (e.g. slime mould) If intelligence is in all living things, then there is no non-intelligent species. There are less and more intelligent species. If there were non-intelligent species, then only trial and error would be left to find food, but I am not sure that this would be a viable strategy in the long term. I should have said that I do not know what the end-game is, not that I do not know if there is an end-game. You were correct in pointing out this contradiction. First paragraph - No need to artificially separate intelligence from other traits as long as we recognize that intelligence is playing a role in evolution. Second paragraph - As a minimum, the organism's choices allow him to either survice or die, which shapes how species evolve.

A sense of smell or a pair of legs do not make choices in trying to achieve a certain outcome. However, intelligence makes this possible. Your sense of touch allows you to "sense" the keys on your keyboard, but its your intelligence that allowed you to know that you were typing an "A" and allowed you to type this text asking a very valid question. I do not know if there is an "end game", but there is at least an immediate purpose. In many cases, its' about finding food to stay alive, and this is best done with a bit of intelligence on your side, because doing it only by trial and error is costly in the survival game.

No parent! As evolutionists would say, intelligence is an emergent property of life; as life is an emergent property of matter.

Will avoid posting

My contention is that bringing mind into a discussion on the evololution of living organisms is essential, not off topic. It has an effect-impact on evolution. As for defining and explaining, you are correct that it should occur elswhere.

Mind, my favourite topic. I believe (backed by evidence) that most if not all living things show some sense of intelligence (a substrate of mind to me) and that if we are to discuss evolution in living things, then we cannot not bring it into the discussion! Intelligence in living things provides partial vision to the blind watchmaker. Also, intelligence is only one piece (although an important one) in the puzzle that we call evolution in living things. And yes, it is guided evolution that we like it or not. Even if we allow only humans to possess it and that it is only an emergent property, it is still influencing evolution. If the discussion remains on non-living things, then please disregard my comment.

This comment opened the door for me. Mind is my favourite subject. I am entirely in agreement with the above indicated statement. If you assume, as I do (backed by evidence), that there are varying degrees of intelligence (a substrate of mind for me) in all living things, then it follows the there is only one kind of evolution; guided evolution; not the one guided by a supreme being, but by intelligence (primitive at first in small living things) that gives a bit of vision back to the blind watchmaker. However, intelligence is only a single piece (important one though) in the complex puzzle that is evolution. Note: If the conversation remains on non-living things, then, by all means, disregard my comment!

We both agree to disagree on terminal lucidity and both agree on the extraordinary nature of our physiology.

I am not looking for a miracle, but a more satisfactory understanding of terminal lucidity and possible ramifications in the on-going debate on mind-brain connection.

I think that your last post speaks to the crux of the matter. I agree that there should not be any behavioral expressions without sufficient brain function and connectivity. But the data may be (not definitive, but may be) telling us that at a critical junction (between life and death), something else or something more is at play. Let's make the following postulates for end-stage AD: cortico-thalamic link sufficiently maintained; thalamus sufficiently functional; brain still benefiting from plasticity and still seeking homeostasis. Why then do we not see progressively diminishing periods of behavioral expressions followed by progressively increasing periods of non-behavioral expression? Not linear, but average regression! What we usually see in late-stage AD is a long period (months, year) of almost complete non-behavioral expression (typical of significant brain degradation) followed by a brief (hours, day), robust (near full functional) and very-late (close to death (hours, days)) spontaneous burst of behavioral expression. Near death appears to be, but not always, a determining factor here. I am sure that you can find counter points to my points. But isn’t it strange that these things called terminal (hours) or paradoxical (days) lucidity happen mostly near death, when the body is maximally degraded by AD! Also, I am not looking for a miracle to explain what is going on, but a mechanism. Maybe electro-magnetic wave bursts; very speculative. Maybe sheer willingness to survive; also, very speculative. Finaly, I do not think that we can settle this matter as we would need data that is currently unavailable to do so.

AD dysregulates the connection and exchanges between the neocortex and the thalamus "We present here several lines of evidence that suggest that dysregulation of the corticothalamic network may be a common denominator that contributes to the diverse cognitive and behavioral alterations in AD." " However, alterations in the corticothalamic network are most likely responsible for a number of other deficits that accompany AD such as sleep fragmentation, attention deficits, cognitive processing deficits, and non-convulsive seizures. Notably, many of these other symptoms become evident even prior to memory deficits." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5854522/ AD degrades the thalamus’ ability to rewire and adapt its function to limited cortical function "Impaired functional connextivity of the thalamus in Alzheimer's disease and mild cognitive impairement: a resting-state fMRI study" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23905993/ Our DTI analyses indicate that the integrity of thalamic connectivity is progressively disrupted following cognitive decline in AD and that DTI parameters in the column and body of the fornix show promise as potential markers for the early diagnosis of AD and for monitoring disease progression. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26141074/ AD and dementia degrades thalamic function "Thalamus pathology is an important contributor to cognitive and functional decline, and it might be argued that the thalamus has been somewhat overlooked as an important player in dementia. In this review, we provide a comprehensive overview of thalamus anatomy and function, with an emphasis on human cognition and behavior, and discuss emerging insights on the role of thalamus pathology in dementia." When the central integrator disintegrates: A review of the role of the thalamus in cognition and dementia - Biesbroek - Alzheimer's & Dementia - Wiley Online Library "Increasing evidence points to the thalamus as an important hub in the clinical symptomatology of the disease, with the ‘limbic thalamus’ been described as especially vulnerable." "The results showed widespread thalamic nuclei atrophy in EOAD and LOAD compared to their respective healthy control groups, with EOAD showing additional atrophy in the centromedian and ventral lateral posterior nuclei compared to YHC." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10313877/ I have not found any evidence corroborating this suggestion. It may be a valid hypothesis, but remains unsubstantiated. I have not found either any evidence on these statements either. The following link summarizes many of the diverse effects of alzheimer on the thalamus, its function and connectivity to other brain areas. Here is one excerpt of The effect of alzheimer's disease of the thalamus "The thalamus is one of the earliest brain regions to be affected by amyloid deposition in AD (Ryan et al., 2013). Our review shows that AD impacts both the thalamus itself (e.g., decrease in volume and cell loss), as well as thalamus’s connections to other brain regions, including hippocampus, Papez circuit, the retrosplenial cortex, and other cortical areas." https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rasu-Karki/publication/354341403_The_effect_of_Alzheimer's_disease_on_the_thalamus/links/6419001b92cfd54f84186534/The-effect-of-Alzheimers-disease-on-the-thalamus.pdf I reiterate, within a severe disease context, how can the brain even be able to temporarily mount a very fast broad-span adaptation and almost full reboot of itself, do so with severely damaged hardware and software, and then go completely off-line before dying? You believe that current knowledge explains terminal lucidity and I do not. To me, something is amiss. Respectfully!

Correction: taking a respite from long posting only.

I do not contest the validity of any of the affirmation in your referenced text. Written with clarity and conciseness. We also agree that “the crux of my inquiry appears to question how a brain with severely degraded structure produces behaviors that suggest full functionality and lucidity”. Upon reading and re-reading carefully your text, I remain unconvinced that a brain evolution-plasticity perspective and current understanding of brain function can explain terminal lucidity in Alzheimer’s patients for example. In the context of imminent death, at the highest point of AD degradation, barely maintaining life, being unresponsive prior to lucidity, with numerous brain areas affected and dysfunctional repair systems, the brain is able to almost suddenly mount a late-minute surge to near normal functionality lasting for a few hours or more then suddenly extinguish itself as quickly as it came into being and, all this, just in time for death. I investigated what happens to an AD brain. Most if not all brain regions are irreversibly affected at the end-stage of the disease: neocortex, limbic system, hippocampus, thalamus, hypothalamus, corpus callosum, cerebellum, even the brain stem. Other hallmarks of AD are severe brain shrinkage, plaques and tangles blocking communication, severed neuronal connections, cell death, fibrous astrocytes, axonal swelling and transport disruptions, dysregulation of homeostatic firing and synaptic plasticity, disruption in brain wave pattern, rampant inflammation, major metabolic changes, etc. I reiterate, within the context described above, including the effects of multiple impacts of end-stage AD on the brain, how can it (the brain) even be able to temporarily mount a very-very fast broad-span adaptation and almost full reboot of itself, do so with severely damaged hardware and software, and then go completely off-line before dying? You believe that current knowledge explains terminal lucidity and I do not. To me, something is amiss. However, that we have divergent views on this matter is a suitable “état de fait”. Finally, I will be taking a respite from posting as I have other duties to attend.

We would have to dig much deeper to get to the bottom of this. However, I, at least, and some others in the field find it particularly interesting that a man with such a deficiency is able to even function in the world. i do not challenge that AD can adapt; i am only saying that in terminal lucidity where going from highly dysfunctional to almost fully functional in a matter of moments, appears to not involve adaptation. i should have said with the prevailing theories of brain, functional specialization, theory of chemical transmission, neuronal connection, etc. I am having issues with my computer, who sent this reply without it being verified. Sorry!

Not full functionality, but much more than one would anticipate with a thin sheet of brain. Adaptation plays a significant role for the man wtih the thin sheet of brain, but not in AD patients. Furthermore, your example of brushing teeth with your toes is still done with an intact brain. With our current knowledge of brain function, a man trying to do this with a seriously incapacitated brain should not be able to do so. Such as? Lots of hypotheses out there. I might present a post on leading ones.

I admit to have read too much into the data. So much so that I forgot about the man having only a thin sheet of actual brain with a 75/100 IQ, a job, family and normal life, which concurs with your perspective that continued functionality is maintained in damaged brains. You also present hydrocephaly, leucotomy and other conditions as additional examples of maintained functionality. Nonetheless, how does a man with a large part of his brain missing maintain almost full functionality and lucidity? Or how does an AD patient with significant brain atrophy, widespread damage, neuronal death and severed neuronal connections between various brain regions suddenly recover almost full functionality and lucidity? Other examples given raise similar issues. At play here is the role of brain size, specialized brain areas, neuronal count and neuronal connections on cognition. The brain may be trying to return to an homeostatic state through neuroplasticity in all of the stated examples, but it may be far from the full picture. Something else might also be at work. Findings like these call into question our conviction of knowing with quasi certainty how our brains work. Happy holidays!

You bring up good points. Unavailable for now, but will get back to you tomorrow or the day after

Joyeux Noel, you 'feminised" it 😊 I went on Google Scholar and picked at random five more studies (deleted only those that were too old) and most talked of multi-modal, multi-target effect, while one was talking of the thalamus and cortical region only, without mentioning if other regions were involved or not (another study thow seemed to indicate that the thalamus was a secondary target). Still, another study was a review of literature (multi-modal) and another one talked about theory moving away from localised in the past to moving toward global with more recent findings. Some studies still talked about the mystery of how anesthetic works. During the holiday season, I will try and get a table together on this.