Andrew William Henderson
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Posts posted by Andrew William Henderson
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2 minutes ago, swansont said:
And this depends on what that "thing" is.
If that "thing" is some kind of eye is developed, then that "thing" has happened multiple times.
Your examples have focused this down to a narrow instance of something so that the statement is true, but it's only true for those narrowly-defined instances, and you are improperly extrapolating those examples.
Suns (i.e. stars) happen all the time. Suns similar to ours happen pretty often. There's no reason to think a star has to be exactly like our sun to support life.
Abiogenesis in no way "bypasses" entropy, and I don't see how the Lorenz effect applies. (and you have made the case for neither; just doing a Gish gallop isn't going to get you anywhere)
To do it twice it would defy entrophy and if you got it at a identical position of the process with a guaranteed future enviroment exactly as it happened here ( if we knew ) the Lorenz effect shows we can predict the outcome but not the exact outcome ... your making a an assumption that basic biolgy was basic in its construction as its construction is said to be relatively fast from the earths formation ...why would that be a starting point of the process ...an important one I agree but not as important as its postion and initial ingredients
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2 minutes ago, exchemist said:
No. The process (by which life arises, or by which gold veins form in the rock) will be essentially the same, but the outcome will differ somewhat from occasion to occasion.
No it will not ..gold formation is mainly a geological process that requires less circumstance , gold is a easy process as it is still been formed today hower all the Ingredients of life that would make a astrobiologist wee his pants is found in your garden however unlike gold we see not even quarter attempts of an Abiogenesis 2 gold still has its mechanical and physical processes ..Abiology hasn't because its process was too conveluted and open to more circumstance than mineral pressure in a fissure
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6 minutes ago, Kartazion said:
Yes. The manufacture is not the same. However, the atoms of gold are all the same (identical). Among the isotopes only one is stable and represents all of the gold naturally present.
At what point in time will they all be exact ....I agree they have no individuality but they can never be exact
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19 minutes ago, Intoscience said:
Yes I agree, this is why I was asking Andrew what he is stating/asking and if he is arguing that abiogenisis is not repeatable. It appears, as you clearly pointed out to him, that he is changing is argument from unrepeatable process to identical outcome.
I'm not ...its because there is goal posts at either end ..There not moving ...No other system or process can produce gold again ..twice the same! And the other end of the pitch ..nothing happens twice not gold or you ! So why biology here or anywhere else happen again ...biology isnt a mountain or gold biology production required more circumstance than a mountain yet we see no Mount Everest 2
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31 minutes ago, Intoscience said:
To the OP,
Andrew,
Can you clearly define what you are arguing please. The title of the thread implies a question - Why Are We alone...
You then state that nothing ever happens twice (as Swansont pointed out to you). You then move on to try and defend the argument that nothing is ever created identical to anything else. ???
Are you are arguing that there is no reason to believe abiogenisis could repeat elsewhere in the observable universe, and this is why we are alone?
Assuming this to be the case, then my answer would be that, I don't personally believe anything. I think we don't yet know enough to make a judgement on abiogenisis either way. As far as I'm aware, we have not been successful in replicating (based our current data and understanding) abiogenisis in the lab experimentally using the basic chemicals and environmental conditions present around 4 billion years ago.
However it appears that this is what happened here on Earth, so we are confident it has happened at least once (we are good evidence), given the right conditions there is no reason to believe it may not be possible to repeat elsewhere.
How rare life emerging is, how often it may occur and how complex it may become are further arguments we can extrapolate from this original one.
It wasnt a question ....the title is why we are alone not why are we alone...its statement of point
The same thing Happening twice = the same thing
Same = exact
Similar = not exact
The point is no other reactions found in nature despite been logically less complex than abiology are observed ....suns don't happen twice there resulting planetary system don't nor the resulting set of circumstance placed on it and its planets ...what magic is used to allow Abiogenesis to bypass entropy and the Lorenz effect
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8 hours ago, Kartazion said:
Unless I am mistaken, gold in its natural state is already slightly alloyed. Hence his information of its origin (for example inserted or disseminated in quartz veins with different sulphides, for example in cupro-leado-zinc veins, or in pegmatites. It can be associated with skarns near sites of contact metamorphism and hypothermal deposits, sometimes in sedimentary rocks.).
- Electrum, a natural alloy of gold and silver
- Porpezite, a natural alloy of gold and palladium
- Rhodite, a natural gold alloy, and originates from Mexico and Colombia.
- The Amalgam alloy of gold and Mercury.
There is no such thing as 100% pure gold. In the precious metals industry, 24-karat gold is said to be pure. If it is lower, it means that the other parts of its alloy are made up of other metals.What your not taking into account is ..the reason the product isn't the same ( gold) is because the process isnt the same just similar enough to produce our definition of gold ..the process is just a product of an earlier process ...
Happening twice = the same thing happening twice
Same= exact
Similar = not exact ....!
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Well would you expect to find a identical gold ring even if you had the access to them ...the gold found in California can be distinguished from gold found in Queensland ...the amount of circumstance to form gold is obvisously less than the amount to form biology ...
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1 hour ago, Phi for All said:
I looked, and you're wrong, so this is a bad basis for your hypothesis.
All electrons and positrons are identical. Many plants actually make clones of themselves (strawberries and potatoes are two of them). Many natural events and processes happen over and over the same way. They seem different because nature is always building on what is already there. Nature doesn't have to start from scratch every time.
"You humans"? Did I choose the wrong thread?
"We humans "sorry ...I hope you didnt think I was A.I. from the future or lord GORDOR king of the martians ..🙂
1 minute ago, Kartazion said:Can you detail?
They are just not the same they are just similar at a picoscopic level ..there properties are not even exact ...
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52 minutes ago, Phi for All said:
I looked, and you're wrong, so this is a bad basis for your hypothesis.
All electrons and positrons are identical. Many plants actually make clones of themselves (strawberries and potatoes are two of them). Many natural events and processes happen over and over the same way. They seem different because nature is always building on what is already there. Nature doesn't have to start from scratch every time.
"You humans"? Did I choose the wrong thread?
Actually they are not identical at all ..the atomic particles of copper are not the same they are modeled by humans to have mathmatical properties.. a clone isnt something happening twice at what point was it identical.? once exposed to exsitence it was never the same identical human twins would have more dissimilar attributes than similar dispite the obvious asthetics...a particular monkey species does not happen twice and the monkey species can not produce an identical individual from another ...would you expect a grain of sand to have an exact duplicate ...? So why a complex chemical reaction forged by unreatable mechanical circumstance ...?
9 minutes ago, swansont said:No, it's not. Convergent evolution wouldn't result in identical species. But you didn't say anything about the same species emerging.
The claim that "Nothing in nature is observered (sic) to happen again or twice ...have a look yourselves! " is not the same as saying some species would emerge twice. The former is very vague* and demonstrably false, while the latter is true and unsurprising, given what we know of evolution.
* "nothing" covers a pretty wide range of items and phenomena. All of them, in fact. So as exchemist notes, processes repeat all the time, even if the outcomes differ.
Examples please ....if two seperate chemical processes can produce the same product ...are you able to distinguish each end product from each other ....a native example would be Could iron and custard make a identical and indistinguishable product from nitrogen and cheese ....
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Which one is the eye then ....the eye in reality is collection of cells that collect light ...spiders have legs and often as hairy as humans ...eyes are just a collective word ..The octopuses concept and interpretation of light into the reality of its surroundings is not the way other body models see things ...convergent evoulution isnt a species happening again just a similar shape ..fish been a good example ..
If it's not biology how could it be biology ...? Another process from totally unique circumstance and material and point in time is not observed in nature to produce the same thing ...the laws of physics may be universal but its effects are not ..!
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The question of extraterrestrial lifeforms ability to exsit rests on probability....the probabilty of been the first instance of a natural process not only of happening twice but producing the same phenomena twice ....why would biology happen again if Abiogenesis is required to happen again first?....Nothing in nature is observered to happen again or twice ...have a look yourselves! The indistinguishable particle from the field of quantum physics only remains so to you humans as of yet .... other lesser complex mechanical/chemical reactions are yet to be observed to produce anything twice or the same again ...Is extraterrestrial biology destined to be the first rather than copper happening twice .. A.Henderson June 2021
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Why we are alone...
in Speculations
Posted
Nothing in nature happens twice ... twice one of the SAME
Same = exact or it's not the same
Similar = not exact
If a second attempt of Abiogenesis be it here or planet zog is restricted to its initial ingredients and physical circumstances those restrictions ( pressures) are non reputable so whatever it can produce wont be biology it's not about a different type of evolution it's only made another chemical reaction that has it's own immediate future enviroment to contend with .it has intent or purpose or intellgence to become a similar chemical reaction found on earth ..if you can give an example of two dissimilar chemical and physical processes that produce the same thing again ...twice ...a 2nd time ..if not let's hope extraterrestrial lifeforms are the first 🙂 you dig ?