Promachos

I understand the overlap. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to just bump that old thread but some online communities don’t like that. There is a fundamental difference. The crux of the approach last time was to contrast health to the efficacy of vaccines, but I wanted this thread to focus specifically on case studies or research that may exist that looks specifically at siblings where one is vaccinated and one isn’t. Or some similar such circumstance. Guessing based on what’s been posted so far the well is running dry. Sorry. For example—there is evidence to suggest children with an older sibling who has Autism are less likely to be vaccinated. It would be great if a follow-up study showed those particular kids had more vaccine-preventable illness compared to their sibling.

Me again—guy with the anti-vaxxer pregnant wife trying to set her straight. Looking for medical case studies or vaccine research or that contrasts vaccinated with non-vaccinated siblings. My wife believes good health and fitness can compensate for vaccines. So examples of differences in health outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated siblings is another line of evidence that shows vaccines actually work.

Can you not appreciate that, when trying to convince a cynical person, induction of that caliber isn’t going to work? The anti-vaccination community circulates a graph showing a sharp dip in measles outbreaks many years before the vaccine came out. Sadly, information like that has made people within that community suspicious of “absence” of a disease being used as evidence, given things like hygiene and general health have also improved as time has gone on. I get it. Vaccination rates go up, infection rates go down, and vice versa. But that angle just won’t penetrate, because people like my wife can blindly assert “most unvaccinated people are unhealthy, if they were healthy being unvaccinated wouldn’t be a problem”. And she can get away with it in her own mind because the studies don’t explicitly control for general health and well-being, they merely compare the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Notice the inherent self-serving bias there: all the other anti-vaxxers lead generally unhealthy lifestyles, she won’t. She’s a vegan, she’ll live forever. 🤪 Anyway, believe me, I understand the strength of the correlation between vaccines and infection rates, but the anti-vaxxers are dead to this particular angle. Which is why I’m looking for another approach.

I don’t need luck, I need better, more scientific evidence to point to; two-way ANOVA tests, that sort of thing. The potential for confounding variables is a problem, so simply citing the absence of a particular disease in this day and age just won’t cut it—reasonable though it may be. When a person is genuinely plagued by fallacious information they can quite easily fill in the blanks with their own nonsense. I need positive evidence to substantiate my positive claim that vaccines do something for the immune system that lifestyle choices and diet cannot. I have lots of literature and articles that say it, now I just need experimental evidence to corroborate it.

I understand you what you’re saying. What I mean is, I’m trying to convince a person who very easily conflates and confuses things. She’ll dismiss that sort of argument as “hygiene improved and that’s that”. I need to try a find explicit studies that show diet and health are a factor that can’t replicate what vaccines do.

I appreciate the sentiments, but “healthiest” doesn’t necessarily mean they had the level of health my wife believes she, our child to be, and I, will be able to maintain. And imagination is half the problem, my wife imagines all sorts of quirky things about health and well-being. Her sister was a Breathatarian for a short time, to give you some idea of the lunacy she’s being exposed to. What’s difficult is that my wife has an almost unfalsifiable position given the studies needed to prove her side of things are not feasible—she can’t substantiate her side at all. But I’m left trying to mount a counter argument with similarly imperfect data. How do you single out the immune system from lifestyle, diet, weight, and everything else? It’s tricky. My understanding is Lymphocytes are trained via exposure to antigens and pathogens, so, neglecting that is detrimental. The fittest and healthiest people in the world wouldn’t last long if they grew up in an overly-sterilised bubble. But how do I demonstrate it!?

My wife is pregnant, and comes from a pretty nutty family of conspiratorial people. The Earth is flat, the British Royal Family are reptiles, you know the drill. She’s come a long way as a result of my influence—I’m very skeptical and scientific—but I fear she has some misconceptions about health and vaccines. She’s thankfully open to the idea of vaccines now, but feels they’re superfluous and a healthy lifestyle is enough. She has some misconceptions about health in general, she was a big fan of Dr. Sebi (he’s a total fraud) and things like the Acid-Ash Hypothesis, but I managed to defuse that. What I’m having trouble with is finding evidence that shows vaccines can’t be compensated for with things like lifestyle choices, diet, or exercise. Are there any studies contrasting the immune response of healthy vaccinated people vs healthy unvaccinated people by chance? Or showcasing the impact of various factors on immune response? Or any other studies that can help me build a case that vaccines actually do something that other boosters of the immune system can’t. Any help would be appreciated. I’m trying Google Scholar, and the online libraries of my Alma Maters, but, I’m not having too much luck. Figured I’d open this up to others potentially way more in the know than me.