DaniWhite

On 25.11.2017 at 11:54 AM, Prometheus said:

It doesn't say anything. It isn't using evolution. The universe doesn't gain anything. Why insist the universe has such human tendencies?

So what's the point of it all? Well why does does there need to be one? Just to satisfy people who crave purpose to the universe it seems. Which is no reason at all. You have presupposed purpose and then used that to prove to yourself there is purpose - can you see how this reasoning is flawed? These processes are part of the dance of the universe which maybe we'll explain to our satisfaction and maybe we won't. But it's OK to say we don't know - far better than saying, 'erm, yeah, something called god did it - that's all that explained then'.

Even if we say god did it what has that explained? The universe is complicated because he wanted it that way. But why? Nothing has been gained or explained. Except for people afraid of the bizarre nature of the universe, who want to explain things in familiar terms - desire, purpose, will. A being with desires? i can understand that - but this quantum fluctuation stuff - far too abstract. It's often said scientists lack imagination because they deny cool stuff like the supernatural, but when we really look at it we see it's theists who really lack imagination as they need to couch everything in terms of a being with motives and desires - just like them.

Play Conway's game of life, watch a Mandelbrot zoom (or better yet, create them yourself). Observe how extremely complex patterns emerge from the iteration of some ridiculously simple rules for yourself. Then actually learn some basic sciences and observe how complexity arises

When I understand you correctly, you say that the universe in its current state just
happened without purpose, without any force that created it that way, that gravity and
all other laws of physic are not developed or used by the universe itself or
some little creator force in the universe but that everything just happened because
mathematically there is a chance for this. That this happened by randomness.
Because when having a lot of possibilities mathematically
Something like that can just happen.

Can I compare this randomness of creation, to throwing a huge dice? And depending on how the
Dice is thrown, humans can be created, or other creatures, or just no life at all. And by throwing the dice
just something is created in the universe?

Yes, you are completely right. Why this matters to me so much, is that my soul wants to
be in a safe harbor. That I am not "lost" in this big wide universe all alone. I had
struggles with finding life purpose all my life, and it's not over yet (although I have 3 wonderfull kids
and a very nice wife, It helps a lot of course but this little nagging insecurity / lostness is still there). But I have no problem
what so ever to say "I don't know". I am neither a theist nor an atheist. I would consider
myself an Agnostic. Because I say, I don't know what’s it all about, I don't know if god
exists. I can’t make a conclusion just on what I know and the experience in life. So I am
very fine with saying " I don't know". But still this question is a very interesting one
and I like to broaden my view and get new input… this time a scientific one.

I mean when god exists this means, that we have some kind of purpose. But now when I think
about your words and the role god plays, it feels more than a parent who made but then abandoned us. But still I think
It would be slightly better, just to know we were made by purpose. But Ok I understand
that my human categories should not be applied to the functioning of the universe. This
idea is really new to me and very strange beginning to think that way. I mean of course
I thought about that no god exists, and the universe is what it is without god. But erasing
The idea that something was created out of nothing (in contrast to something always have been there), a willful
Development of life or complexy. This idea of complete randomness just by mathematically probability is new to me.

Ok, but someone created this game of life. Someone invented the rules. So who invented the
rules of the universe. Did they just happen by throwing the dice of existence?

On 13.11.2017 at 10:54 AM, Strange said:

There is no evidence for that so I wouldn’t say that. On the other hand, just because you, personally, find it implausible doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. That is the fallacy of arguing from incredulity/ignorance. 

Beauty is in our heads, not the universe. We find things beautiful because we have grown up (evolved) with them. 

And, yes, the universe is complex. But I doubt a simple universe could exist. 

Why do you think there is a will involved? That is just anthropomorphising the universe (and she hates that). 

It seems you are creating your own version of the universe and then trying to explain that, instead of understanding the universe as it is. 

Yes, beauty enters the world through our existence. A star or a rock can’t find the universe beautiful, but we can. But there is a foundation out there in the universe that is needed for me to find the universe beautiful.

Because why does the universe evolves to more complex life forms? Why doesn’t the universe say, ok, mikrobes are fine. Worms are ok. Why all the long jouney to us? Why using evolution to develop the species? I mean, if there is no will or no wish, then there wouldn’t be the complexity. I mean, couldn’t the universe life with just rocks, or simple life forms? Why all the effort in creating higher life forms? What does the univers “gain” out of it? If the answer ist nothing, so whats the matter of starting the evolutionary process in the first place?

Nietzsche said: “There is only a perspective seeing, only a perspective "knowing"; and the more affects we allow to speak about one thing, the more eyes, different eyes, we can use to observe one thing, the more complete will our "concept" of this thing, our "objectivity," be.”
As a human being I have a persepective, maybe we can not get rid of a perspective completely. I think we  are far away from understanding the universe as it is. To many open questions.

I mean with the same basis of scientific knowledge, some scientists decide, that they believe in god. Others don’t. They have the same raw material but make their own conclusions out of it. We do not have the evidence yet, to say how the universe truly is.

On 10.11.2017 at 0:15 PM, Prometheus said:

 

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Why do you limit your options to 'god did it' or 'everything popped out of nothing'? What about it didn't start, i.e. it's always existed? What about 'we don't know'? Also, as i understand it physicists have found that things do simply pop into existence.

Everything seems to have a beginning and an end and some kind of development or change between these two stages. I as a human being have a beginning and an end. I know I can't life forerver. Maybe if I would live forever and wouldn't have concepts of beginning and end the idea of the universe as beeing there since eternety would not be so strange to me. But in the world I experience nothing comes out of thin air. There is some causation.

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And yes, i'm frequently astonished by existence. Why does that imply god?

I mean if there would be nothing, I would not be bothered so much by existence. Or if the universe and life wouldn't be so complex and beautiful a need for god wouldn' be there. If there only were a plain rock planet and only a few worms, and I would be one of the worms, maybe I wouldnt think, wow this is so amazing, this must be made by a creator. When I go into a kitchen and I find some wheat flour and some ther powders lying there. Ok . But if there is a cake with 5 storeys, nice color, ornaments, and a fantastic smell and it tastes delicious, I say, wow, who did that? How can a fantastic cake compound itself and it no big deal...