interested

does anyone know if gamma or x rays were detected here as well, giving clear evidence the gravity wave travels at light speed (or perhaps is induced by the gamma/x rays moving through space)

Taking your statement to be plausible (We were always a part of it: in life and in death.) who should care about the concept of life after death unless you follow a religion that teaches punishment after death if you did not do as you were told by your lords and masters. Our molecules were part of nature before we were born and will be after our death, they will live on forever and were part of us, they therefore will go on for ever. From the metaphysics point of view and investigating the fundamental nature of all things. Is it possible to drill further down at the quantum foam level and find some remnant of self after death existing in space after death perhaps which does not consist of atoms ? from the Buddhist perspective were we always in life and death as we are now part of the universe as a whole even at the quantum foam level. Quantum foam and space is absorbed by mass according to some theories, so if we were to exist as quantum froth after death, it may be short lived, unless of course you believe in reincarnation like Tibetan Buddhists and the Dalai Lama or transmigration etc etc. Is one life enough? I think so. What is the scientific point of view on the fundamental nature of everything can life after death happen as a quantum anything? I understand it to be it has never been been proven, and is therefore generally disbelief in the global scientific community, although they have tried detecting ghosts in allegedly haunted houses. Does anyone believe in an afterlife of any kind, and if so what do you think it might be? Up to present it appears to be a big NO

Having lost interest in my threads on entanglement and dark matter because scientists can not explain them. I noticed your comments on this thread, or more precisely the words Universe and Consciousness Forgive my ignorance on this subject but The subject of metaphysics is concerned with the fundamental nature of being ie what ultimately is there. My understanding is all things are quantum fluctuations and may be connected, in some entangled way to a certain level, throughout all of space. There is no physical life or consciousness after death, how can their be with no functioning body or mind, it is absurd to think so, unless you are christian and believe in the resurrection, or that science can revive a frozen body and brain, with the brain still functioning. Universal Consciousness is a concept from religion and also from metaphysics covering the fundamental nature of the universe, could the universe be regarded as conscious? (a big quantum computer perhaps) When we die do we just become part of the universe again ie one with the universe/god etc. What is the buddhist take on this, zen does not believe in an afterlife, theravada does. What we do in this life may affect the future, for a zen thats the end of it, for a theravada a more chances at a life are given. My own take is that when we die everything that we were is absorbed back into nature and recycled eventually.

Swansont you are talking nonsense, and Strange you have been wrong so many times on this forum, I suspect you misunderstand more than most but do not realize it. I suspect a straw man argument is being attempted and will cease commenting further. Thanks to those who posted interesting links.

You might note I am asking questions not answering them, and have largely avoided speculating myself except for the little bit of fun above. At what stage should we give up asking questions or thinking. I am certain know one knows for sure what dark matter is or the cause of dark energy, or even the cause of the big bang, but it is interesting to think about it. I posted various ideas already posted on this forum by others and dug up a few others, see early on this thread. Links to Loop Quantum Gravity, and MOND theories were both posted earlier on along with some others.

Dark matter and Dark Energy are a prediction of GR, which is a classical theory. Without quantum something what do you think dark matter or even dark energy is? Something is required to explain them. Absorbtion of quantum fluctuations or quantum foam by mass is the cause of space time curvature according to some theories.

Interesting discussion, chillaxing huh, I have only been putting forward the views of others I have googled up until now. This is my speculation, and may it easier to follow what I am thinking at the moment ref dark matter etc. I have a suspicion / speculation that dark matter is virtual particles, or quantum foam in space. Dark matter and Dark Energy is required by relativity to make relativity work. Quantum foam in space may be the source of Dark Energy according to one source I posted. The absorbtion of Quantum foam may be the source of gravity according to another of my posts. Quantum foam causing more space to appear between objects as a source of Dark Energy, or Quantum foam being absorbed by mass or smoothed out by objects moving through it could be the cause of gravity, either way gravity is caused by the stretching or absorption of space. Both would look the same Dark matter can not be detected because it may just be virtual particles or photons that exist everywhere, and people are looking for some thing exotic to explain it all. From the link on page four http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/10/quantum-foam-virtual-particles-and-other-curiosities/ "The life of an electron is much more complex than that, though. In addition to the usual quantum craziness, where an electron is both a particle and a wave and the position of the electron is generally indeterminate, electrons are surrounded by virtual particles. For instance, an electron can briefly emit a photon. That photon will be reabsorbed quickly in such a way that the energy and momentum conservation laws aren’t violated. But it gets crazier than that. The virtual photon can also turn into a virtual electron/positron pair. Thus, for a brief moment, what was once just an electron becomes an electron plus an additional electron and positron. As long as the virtual particles coalesce before the universe notices, it’s all within the rules. Indeed an electron never exists as a single “bare” electron. Rather, it is always enshrouded in an ephemeral cloud of virtual particles, flickering in and out of existence, and vastly complicating what an electron “really” is." Virtual particles in space could be the source of dark matter, and are therefore undetectable at the other side of the universe or on the outer edges of galaxies. On average virtual particles exist in space FACT on average they will have some effect on gravity and may be the dark matter predicted by relativity, they could also be the source of dark energy and the expansion of the universe. Virtual particles could also be the source off all matter in the universe prior to any big bang. Now the above is what I call speculation or is it now chillaxing?.

In addition to the above, you may find this interesting, or not since you most likely already know about this The first observation of the quantum foam came from tiny disturbances in the energy levels of the electron in a hydrogen atom. A second effect was predicted in 1947 by Hendrik Casimir and Dirk Polder. If the quantum foam was real, they reasoned, then the particles should exist everywhere in space. Further, since particles also have a wave nature, there should be waves everywhere. So what they imagined was to have two parallel metal plates, placed near one another. The quantum foam would exist both between the plates and outside of them. But because the plates were placed near one another, only short waves could exist between the plates, while short and long wavelength waves could exist outside them. Because of this imbalance, the excess of waves outside the plates should overpower the smaller number of waves between them, pushing the two plates together. Thirty years after it was first predicted, this effect was observed qualitatively. It was measured accurately in 1997. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/10/quantum-foam-virtual-particles-and-other-curiosities/

The XMASS collaboration, led by Yoichiro Suzuki at the Kavli IPMU, has reported its latest results on the search for warm dark matter. Their results rule out the possibility that super-weakly interacting massive bosonic particles (bosonic super-WIMPs) constitute all dark matter in the universeRead more at: https://phys.org/news/2014-10-dark-xmass-editors-physical-letters.html#jCp Photons as you are aware exhibit both wave and particle properties, and they are affected by gravity. They therefore distort space in the same way normal mass does except they are not stationery like a normal particle. Distortions in space are quantum fluctuations. LIGO detected gravitational waves ie distortions in space. Gravitational waves travel at light speed the same as photons except on a bit bigger scale and are omnidirectional. The Graviton if it exists causes a stress field in space towards a mass, if it does not exist, then according to other theories the quantum foam is distorted/absorbed by what ever is passing through it causing a stress field ie the gravitational effect. The dark energy causing the expansion of space is most likely, according to links I posted above, caused by quantum fluctuations in space. In one of the many versions of string theory I plowed through recently to answer another question of mine, a photon is represented as an open ended vibrating string where as fermion is represented as a closed string. I you mentioned previously, strings are "modes of vibration" in space, a space full of quantum fluctuations or vibrating strings. Additional stuff keeps turning up, and no I am not repeating myself, I think I have changed my mind on the existence of dark matter several times throughout this thread. Very few people have special insight, only Mordred has put forward a good idea as to what dark matter may have been, which you and strange discounted, I assumed therefore you both must know something about what you were talking about, it just goes to show how wrong we can all be.

Believe what you like, unless you look you will never know.

I think Swansont is big enough to answer the question him self, without your assistance. Ref quantum fluctuations and citations if you google the subject I dont know which link to post for you so I suggest you google it your self

I have another thread in mind when I have done a bit more reading on string theory, but this thread still has some mileage with all the theories people are publishing ref alternative gravity and not needing dark matter. As you must be aware alternative ideas on what dark matter is or is not are plentiful and are interesting to look at and mull over. Since this thread is about dark matter, and you have pointed out I do not know what dark matter is or even if it exists in the abundance predicted by the standard models. Perhaps you would like to explain what dark matter is or might be in your opinion. Is Relativity being stretched beyond breaking point, is a new theory on gravity required, etc. Dark matter does not emit, radiate, or absorb light. It causes galaxies to appear to have more mass than is predicted by current theories on gravity. empty space does not emit radiate or absorb light either, perhaps there is more to gravity than meets the eye.

I would of thought wave particle duality would be a sufficient citation or the double slit experiment, but I will see what I can find for you. I have been keeping an eye on Mordreds Thread what space is which has put a few ideas into my head, along these lines. Yes the thread is about dark matter, but what I was looking at was the quantum fluctuations in space, and reasoning to myself that if a particle is a wave, and a virtual particle is also a wave, both have an equivalent mass then the virtual particles existing on average all the time in space may give an effect of dark matter, if in fact dark matter exists, which it may not. I did not like the last link, but included it from my googling session, I should have left it out, but included it as it momentarily interested me. Perhaps you could explain

Thanks folks the links induced a googling session, and a bit of summary of what I am thinking. Starting with the MANTRA everything is quantum fluctuations The big bang is the source of dark matter, the big bang originates with quantum fluctuations. Does it matter if dark matter is not matter? Dark matter does not emit, radiate, or absorb light. FACT Virtual particles as Quantum fluctuations in space do not emit, radiate, or absorb light and exist on average all the time. FACT. Once a quantum fluctuation is induced by the movement of a photon in space it will carry on existing for ever unless it encounters another wave in anti-phase cancelling it, or it hits something solid and is absorbed. The Quantum fluctuations in space will therefore on average increase for ever driving the expansion of space. I SEE NO REASON WHY NOT . Quantum fluctuations could be driving the expansion of space ie are the source of Dark Energy http://www.newsweek.com/new-theory-universe-expansion-quantum-fluctuations-dark-energy-forever-610130 Could quantum fluctuations existing on average all the time in space be a source of dark matter or is there another viable idea. https://phys.org/news/2011-11-quantum-vacuum-dark.html Gravity itself may be the result of quantum fluctuations http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/physics/gravity-could-be-the-result-of-random-quantum-fluctuations/

The nearest anal ogy I can find to your nonsense is from welsh twll du bob saes roughly translates black holes to the english, it is often used in insults directed at people of the english persuasion. I would suggest you are talking out of your twll du and should shut up.

Thanks beecee for the excellent info, to "simply extend the parameters beyond that t+10-43 seconds" is what some theories already do, and do not need quite so much dark matter.The following unrelated link came into my email this morning, the search for WIMPS goes on. "The major theoretical model attributes dark matter to weakly interacting massive particles (WIMPs), whose nature is predicted by various high energy physics models," said Torii. "In these models, a WIMP would be its own antiparticle and, when two of them get together, they annihilate, producing known particles like electron/positron pairs, proton/anti-proton pairs, and gamma rays."Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2015-11-dark-particle-space.html#jCp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My earlier suggestion ref dark matter possibly being matter antimatter particles was not a bad guess after all, OR at least I am not the only one who thought it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions requiring speculative answers. Dark ENERGY drives the expansion of the universe could dark MATTER be slowing it down? What is dark ENERGY? Could it be Quantum fluctuations, Virtual particles or Virtual waves in space? Could quantum fluctuations be being created by dark energy particles or high energy particles and cause the expansion of the universe ???????????????? Could an elusive Wimp make the space around it expand and not be detected in outer space????? Could the dark matter at the centre of a galaxy be mostly already be absorbed by mass in the galaxy and therefore be none detectable, BUT on the outskirts of galaxies it is still being sucked in from an expanding outer space.?? Could CBR be evidence of extremely small wimps annihilating each other, driving the expansion of space, allowing more wimps to come into existence??????????????????? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the links you have included scientists are now looking for dark matter with energy levels down to 1  MeV/c2. This I understand is way above the levels of the energy from CBR. BUT CBR is visible and is approximately uniform through out all of an expanding space, could CBR be evidence for dark matter not big bang???

AND it seems space itself may be entangled “I didn’t know what space was made of before,” says Swingle. “It wasn’t clear that question even had meaning.” But now, he says, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the question does make sense. “And the answer is something that we understand,” says Swingle. “It’s made of entanglement.” http://www.nature.com/news/the-quantum-source-of-space-time-1.18797#/GRAPHIC the curvature of space MAY be caused by entanglement. The above link raises more questions than it answers.

Here is some snake oil. Testing the effects of gravity and motion on quantum entanglement in space-based experiments. different acceleration does affect entanglement of BEC. http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/16/5/053041/meta

I think you are wrong again space is made of strings in string theory, but I could be wrong. Stringy Gravitons permeate all of space, but then, I could be wrong. I know all things in string theory are represented as different modes of vibration, what I was asking was, how does string theory represent a photon and an electron, everyone knows they are vibrations, your answer was pointless unless your aim is to post the maximum number of posts possible without actually answering a question. I will try google, it may yield a better answer.

Yes I agree, (parentage not included), but not having to be over rigorous we can look at all the theories on the menu, and think about each one, to see if it is believable or not. For me GR is a good theoretical fit, until it goes into singularities, this includes the big bang singularity concept. Loop Quantum gravity, and many other theories on the menu address the nonsense (to me) concept of singularities and infinite gravity. Dark matter is not necessary on all the alternative theories on the menu, and may be the result of stretching the existing theories too far as I suspect is the case with singularities. The point is dark matter may not be as abundant as perceived from GR, and as you have pointed out with examples something is causing gravitational lensing which may be a level of dark matter. Regards not being completely correct on a subject, it is better to have an opinion on a subject which is partly correct than no idea at all. At the end of the day theories develop and move on, so why just study old theories when newer more interesting and sometimes more believable ones come to the fore, to be discussed by old farts trying to support the unbelievable big bang and a beginning of time theory. see the other threads I posted on and links already posted.

In string theory space I understand is made up of vibrating strings, how does string theory represent a photon and an electron

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Photons are part of the electromagnetic spectrum, Gravitational lensing of photons is observed in the Bullet Cluster, and is evidence for dark matter. wikipedia says it best -------------------------------------------------------------- Nearly all matter that may be encountered or experienced in everyday life is baryonic matter, which includes atoms of any sort, and provides those with the property of mass. Non-baryonic matter, as implied by the name, is any sort of matter that is not composed primarily of baryons. This might include neutrinos and free electrons, dark matter, such as supersymmetric particles, axions, and black holes. The very existence of baryons is also a significant issue in cosmology, because it is assumed that the Big Bang produced a state with equal amounts of baryons and antibaryons. The process by which baryons came to outnumber their antiparticles is called baryogenesis. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the observed universe there does not appear to be equal amounts of antimatter, suggesting something is wrong with big bang theory perhaps. Would a black hole disintegrating produce equal amounts of matter and antimatter? Loop quantum gravity allows this to happen. I get payed to think at work about things that are not very interesting to me. In my private unpaid time I like to think about things that interest me, regardless of what a professional says I am allowed to think, especially when they cant make up their mind.

Perhaps prior to big bang does have meaning now https://phys.org/news/2010-11-scientists-glimpse-universe-big.html#nRlv Loop Quantum Gravity also has a good stab at it along with none existing singularities etc

I fully recognize the bullet cluster is an excellent support for dark matter assuming GR is correct, if not it is a example of gravitational lensing of light. Do you consider dark matter to be baryonic in nature? do you have an opinion on what it might be? You may find the following links interesting, dark matter has a wobble https://phys.org/news/2017-10-evidence-dark-exotic.html Apart from mond, Loop quantum gravity has no singularities and obviously if proven to be correct would alter some of the predictions for dark matter. quoting from the link below. "We expect the geometry of spacetime to be an emergent structure, which emerges from some purely mathematical theory of quantum gravity," coauthor Mir Faizal, a professor at the University of British Columbia-Okanagan and the University of Lethbridge, Canada, told Phys.org. "This is similar to the geometry of a metal rod emerging from atomic physics. It has been suggested from various approaches to quantum gravity that this structure underlying the geometry of spacetime can be represented by noncommutative geometry. So, we have proposed a way to test this idea using an opto-mechaical experiment. The advantage of having such a structure will be that, in it, the spacetime will be free of singularities, including the big bang singularity."Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-10-physicists-quantum-gravity-current-technology.html#jCp In quantum loop theory https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html big bangs and dark stuff is not a requirement neither are singularities.