Handy andy

 

 

Krakatoa went in 1883. Anyone 1/4 a mile away when it erupted died in the blast. Two reasons I know your original claim in not true.

 

You watched Anak Krakatoa erupt. As Strange observes, that must have been impressive. Your original statement is very misleading, which is the opposite of what you want to do in a science discussion.

Krakatoa has erupted many times, famously in 1883, but has continued to erupt ever since. It is still known as Krakatoa, The cone which is appearing in the centre of the old caldera is still the original volcano over the original hot spot which has not moved. My original statement was correct, you assumed I was referring to the eruption or rather explosion of the island in 1883, which for sake of correctness is not to the east of Java it is to the west of Java. The island was not completely destroyed, 3 sections of the old caldera still stand, making a kind of lagoon around the new cone. The only part of my statement which was slightly wrong was I was there 7 or 8 years ago, not 4, time flies. To give an accurate fix of my location I was anchored inside the caldera rim on the south side, out of the ash plume.

So you saw Anak Krakaota erupt. That must have been impressive (I have spent many years living in earthquake/volcano zones in different parts of the world).

 

But what the hecking heck does it have to do with GPS? Why do you go off on these bizarre irrelevant tangents?

Tangents huh

I think I was going down the line of asking what could block or interfere with gps signals, and Swansont asked what heats the atmosphere to 2000C, Ref strange or bizarre ideas, I think that volcanoes are interesting, and if a super volcano was to throw tons of ash into the atmosphere, which could change the earths climate, the ash may also interfere with gps transmissions. Since you have lived around volcanoes before you will be aware that ash in the atmosphere produces much larger lightning strikes than a normal thunder storm with mainly only water droplets involved in the generation and holding of charge. The ash seems to hold more charge, it is possible that an ash cloud might work like the ionosphere and block signals, as might a nuclear winter after a war.

Since most things relating to GPS are covered on Wikipedia and to try and keep the thread interesting to at least one party, I thought I would look at the things not normally covered by Wikipedia. Hence my line of thought ref gps signal loss.

 

 

No, you didn't.

YES I DID, I was anchored inside the old caldera rim about 4 years ago, (the caldera rim is remnants of what was not blown up in the original explosion), watching the new Krakatoa which is growing in the middle of the old caldera rim. It was smoking when I sailed in and anchored, after about an hour it exploded repeatedly for about 6 hours. The Child of krakatoa, or Anak krakatoa as the locals call it is very active. We anchored in a depth of 5 metres where it was charted at 25 metres, when we pulled our anchor up in the morning, the water around the boat was bubbling, and the anchor was too hot to touch. The whole sea bed is rising inside the rim. The new cone when we were there was approx 500m above sea level, and the ash and rocks blasted into the air I estimate went 1500m into the air above the volcano taking about 10seconds to reach the peak after every explosion. Awesome, you dont experience things like this by sitting at a computer.

So there! I did see it and you are wrong.

 

 

No posts have been removed from this thread, and I don't see any modnotes. Your two removed posts in this calendar month were in a different thread (off-topic for that discussion) and made no mention of GPS.

 

I'm pretty sure if you were using GPS in a nuclear blast area, the loss of a GPS signal would not be your primary concern.

 

Lightning is a very localized effect.

 

Volcanoes and power stations? No, I don't think so.

Perhaps the post was not saved I do however have an email with a reprimand, which I assume the deletion was due to, I did not follow the link on the email.

I asked the question ref the EM pulse pushing electrons away, and asked the additional question ref signal propagation in positively ionized air, and further signal loss caused by electron recombination with ions, giving off radiation and interference.

I watched Krakatoa blow from 1/4 mile away, Volcanoes do lightning, as did Yasser in Vanuatu. Yasser gave the most awesome lightning display I have ever seen, Awesome in the true sense of the word. Getting out of the office opens the mind to the real world!

Even steam from steam engines is ionized, electrons recombining will give off radio waves or photons, as well as conducting current. Do these interfere with GPS signals as well as the other stuff mentioned above.

You've not answered Swansont's question with anything relevant to the question. It really could be a chat bot.

 

I did and it was deleted with a reprimand. I covered one or two things relating to another thread. Very naughty.

What in the atmosphere can reach 2000C, Nuclear explosions, Lightning, Volcanoes, Power Stations etc .

If you take the time to go back through the posts, you may realize I was not trying to cover what can be looked up in Wikipedia, and was trying to make the thread at least interesting for one (me).

I had played around focusing on time dilation and curved space, and then started looking at the ionosphere and things blocking the signal or how the signal could be lost either deliberately via high altitude explosions or naturally in thunderstorms etc. I was invited by swansont to start the thread, and have received a number of obtuse responses throughout. Stranges question above is an example. What the hell chat bot is meant to mean I have no idea, is it even a term in English. "Frankly my dear I don't give a damn". Strange as it may seem I don't believe time dilation is anything more than the result of the curvature of space, and is only the clock slowing down. I started a thread to this effect under speculations, which was based on time dilation space curvature and general relativity. Strange as it seems many people wanted to include Special relativity as part of an argument to state I was wrong. Which might well be the case.

How is lightning relevant? Because it can reach temperatures of 2000C. Why is that relevant? Uhm...

Uhm wot

I don't think that

 

Childs Law or Equation was explicitly mentioned in the book I referenced.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_charge

 

http://simion.com/definition/childs_law.html

 

https://www.britannica.com/science/Langmuir-Child-equation

What is it you don't think? If it was the size doesn't matter thing I was trying to be funny, it does matter.

In this case smaller is better, to concentrate any charges and increase the Electric Field Strength. Increasing the electric field strength may increase the space charge density

J = K V_d^3/2 / d²

I haven't finished reading the book yet.? My missis keeps asking me to do things

I don't think the Wilmhurst device is suited to what I was originally thinking about. However I have not completely discounted it. I do see the potential it has for generating a useful potential momentarily.

Thank you for the links above, they are interesting

Ref anodes and cathodes and gaseous emissions, in all instances I have read so far only the electrons or -ve charges are mentioned. I am interested in the positively charged atoms also, and think they can be separated using a magnetic field, thus doubling the recoverable charge from the effective avalanche which will happen in gases, once the voltage is high enough. Also they will become excited an ionize more atoms.

On the above point thank you again for your references on the magnetohydrodynamic generator, it shows I am on the right track.

This thread is sounding more and more like a chatbot - a series of not-quite-sequiturs picking up on random words in the previous post.

Exactly it has become uninteresting. I can read anything I want to know about GPS on wiki. If people aren't prepared to ask questions around the edge of what is common knowledge on wiki the thread is pointless.

 

In Van de Graaff generator, on bigger metallic sphere there is positive charge, because the electrons are torn out of it, and they are moved to smaller metallic sphere, usually on stick, with wire connected to transport belt. Smaller metallic sphere will have negative charge, because of abundance of electrons on it.

When you place small sphere say 10 cm away from bigger sphere, it's like one huge capacitor, with air acting as isolator.

But only to the moment in which voltage between electrodes-spheres is too high and discharge will reunify electrons on bigger (positive) sphere.

In example it'll be approximately 300 kV.

Presence of ions in the air, will just speed up discharge of Van de Graaff generator.

f.e. if you would place there radioactive isotope which will be decaying and newly created particles would ionize air medium, discharge would happen faster than without radioactive isotope.

That's how Geiger counter/radioactive meters are working.

Thanks again for the links, they are very interesting but not exactly what I am aiming at doing. The Wilmhurst device is interesting to look at at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimshurst_machine.

I am interested in generating multiple EM pulses to drive off any free electrons, leaving a net +ve charge behind around the EM pulse source, the ionized positive ions will collide with other other atoms and ionize them also. Repeated EM pulses will drive of more free electrons. I am considering separating any positive or negative ions with via a switched magnetic field, to guide the charges onto collection plates.

Size is not important ( to polarity)

 

It doe sinfluence capacitance directly

(from http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html)

So with a relatively large sphere a metre in diameter the capacitance is a tenth of a nano farad.

That's not a huge capacitance. It's of the order of the capacitance of a metre or so of teh cable used to connect the TV Ariel to the receiver.

Or ten billion times less than one of these

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/1094089/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK-PLA-_-google-_-PLA_UK_EN_Passive_Components-_-Capacitors&mkwid=spGjDHJxF_dc|pcrid|88057073523|pkw||pmt||prd|1094089&gclid=CjwKEAjwxurIBRDnt7P7rODiq0USJADwjt5DsrXNeDRpKWl4Hp_9F8B1Wdn3flgG0m-1z0mgKscp_BoCiQzw_wcB

Get two V de G generators - one of each polarity.

You are not the first person I have heard say size doesn't matter. On one of my early posts on this thread I referenced current bunching points in switched circuits. Narrow pointed tips on antennae causes currents to bunch, causing very high impulse voltages. The electric field strength can explode wires, under the correct conditions. I was exploring the bifilar wound tesla coil pulsed at very high repletion rates so that an outgoing pulse passes an incoming pulse. I guess it is a little like an electronic Wilmhurst device.

Thankyou for your interest.

 

 

By all indications you do not understand relativity, and yet you still reject it. You think it's misinterpretation and yet you have not provided one iota of science to explain why or support a "correct" interpretation.

 

Why do I need an original idea, when some very unoriginal ideas are the likely answer? Some have already been suggested.

I have a pretty good impression from the time dilation discussion I started based around general relativity people don't understand the difference between special and general relativity. Time dilation in general relativity is not the same as discussed in special relativity and the Lorentz transformations.

Time dilation in general relativity is caused by gradients in space. Special relativity is looking at different aspects of space.

1 Special relativity (SR) doesn't include gravity, whereas general relativity (GR) does. The interpretation of time dilation in GR does not apply to SR

2 In SR, the laws of physics are the same for all inertial coordinate systems, that is those in which Newton's First Law of Motion is true. In GR the laws of physics are the same in all coordinate systems, whether they are inertial or not. So SR is a special case of GR is questionable

Thank you all for your answers they have mostly been very appreciated, including the marginally offensive ones, and those that don't understand general relativity different reference frames.

I have the information I was looking for on the forum.

Thank you all

Rgds

 

1. Why are the electrons and atoms in clocks affected but not those in your body?

 

2. Two people, A and B, moving relative to one another. A sees B's clock running slow and B sees A's clock running slow. How can that be a mechanical effect on the atoms?

 

3. You are stationary relative to me so your clock is not running slow. You are moving at 10,000 MPH relative to the Cassini probe so you clock is running a little bit slow. You are moving at 98% c from the view of atmospheric muons, so your clock is running really, really slow. How can a mechanical effect make your clock run at three different speeds?

1) Of course atoms in your body are affected, but why on earth would it slow down your aging process or bodily functions, because space is pulling at your particles. It is more likely to age them.

2) They are using cheap Chinese watches, but why on earth would it slow down your aging process or bodily functions, because time is being measured differently.

3) The clocks are running at different speeds and are measuring time differently, but why on earth would it slow down your aging process or bodily functions, because space is pulling at your particles.

The clocks time is being affected by their movement in space, which also distorts space. Space is distorted by the movement of the particles in a nucleus as well as the movement of electrons and photons. The clocks measure different times because of the different rates of change of space around their particles. And as we all know space transmits all known forces

Relativity includes space, and time dilation. There is a difference between understanding and belief. I think I mostly understand Time dilation, but like religion, I just dont believe it. I think it is a misinterpretation of the facts.

Do you have any original ideas, why a motor would miraculously seem to develop a lower inertia after it has been the first time.

Implying that Hilter's eugenics campaign was a success and that there is a healthier population out there today as a result requires a citiation. "I don't recall, but you can check" really doesn't cut it.

 

Hilter killed millions of Jewish people. He did not selectively breed them. He murdered them. Today Israel has the 8th highest life expectancy in the world. Higher than the scandinavian countries of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

I referenced a Scandanavian country, not Hitlers Germany. I think it was Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilisation_in_Sweden

I wonder if the healthier Israeli population is a result of only the fittest and brightest surviving the holocaust.

During war times does it take brains to volunteer and charge across fields into hales of machine gun fire. Do the brighter ones find something better to do, and survive the war, does war increase IQ's by culling those that don't think or are taught not to think it is a bad idea to get shot for some belief system or another.

 

 

Yes. And as soon as you have a mathematical description, post it so it can be examined and compared to experiment. Until then, though, such claims are pretty much pointless.

I would have thought general relativity has space already included The various String Theories available have a few thoughts on gravity. Particle physics seems to ignore distortions in space, other than recognizing things are waves I understand general relativity is already pretty well tested on the gravitational front it incorporates a stretched space, ie something that is stretched. Something that some claim does not exist and has no properties. If that was the case how the hell could you stretch space, and how could atomic clocks be affected by movements in space if space was nothing

0.5c + 0.5c does not equal c

Ah yes, I was not being rigorous, as usual.

Time dilation "is still the kings new clothes", it does not mean you will live longer, or slower, unless you are using your local clock to give you the time.

 

This bears repeating as it refutes your whole idea. It's a very simple example and it clearly shows why you're wrong. I think the focus should be on this now because it's the simplest possible way for you to understand you are wrong.

 

You answered:

 

 

 

This makes no sense and completely ignores the question.

I will repeat.

 

The people on the ship will see the clock running normally. They may be aware of relativity, but to them, the clock runs NORMALLY, whereas you, who are stationary would see it run slow if the ship passed by you. HOW can it be just an effect of the stretching space if 2 different people will see it differently? Surely this would be detected if it were the case, as there WERE numerous experiments done on exactly this sort of thing.

 

You must answer this to clear out the misconceptions.

The people in the ship will see the clock running, if they use it to measure their heart rates their pulse rate will appear raised, ie running at normal speed, The clock is just an instrument moving through space whose movement is being affected by its movement through space.

What experiments have been done to show a living organism would live longer in space when travelling at speed.

This implies a violation of Lorentz invariance, which has been confirmed (I just read a paper about this) to about a part in 10^8.

 

What's your evidence that an atom (or any system)can tell if it's moving at constant velocity, or if it's stationary?

 

 

This contains a fundamental misunderstanding of modern atomic theory. Electrons do not orbit.

 

You keep claiming this, but have not provided any model or tests to back it up. That's not how this works.

A Photon of light.

Electrons are viewed in many different ways, I regard them as waves, moving in space, with a charge, momentum, and mass. Electrons exist in shells around a nucleus, outside of an atom. Does modern atomic theory state otherwise.

All waves even photons are affected by gravity. The sub atomic particles are all waves they will all be affected by gravity, what part of physics states they wont be what proof do I need.

It also fails to account for the fact that velocities do not add like that.

What are you referring too

 

What part of our atmosphere reaches 2000 ºC?

Gases when heated can reach 2000C water is mostly disassociated at this temperature but at 6000C it is completely disassociated. Plasma in lightning reaches temperatures far in excess of this. Lightning in the atmosphere causes temperatures in excess of 2000C and so would a nuclear bomb exploded in the upper atmosphere where the air is very thin and ions will take longer to recombine.

You might like to seek out this book

 

Electron Physics and Technology

by

Thomson and Callick (note not JJ Thompson with a p)

 

English Universities Press

 

(So sad they were shut down)

 

Chaper 5 Gaseous conduction is of particular interest.

But the whole book is a mine uf useful theoretical and practical information from materials, to pumps to vacuum generators to HV pulse generators.

 

Also very relevant is

 

Advances in High Voltage Insulation and Arc Interruption

by

Maller and Naidu

 

Pergammon

Received the books this morning, the electron physics book looks very interesting, its a bit if a refresher course or a trip down memory lane.

Thanks again for the recommendations. They should keep me quiet for a few days.

Some family groups are on average smarter than other groups, some also have better educations and appear smarter, where as in real life, they are thick as two short planks. Why should this not be the case in with different races, as well. On average we are all human and behave in similar ways, but we all have inherited abilities from our parents. Hitler went down the line with Eugenics and selective breeding to produce a master race. In one of the Scandinavian countries prior to WW2 I think practised sterilisation of any one with deformities or coming from unwanted social groups, criminals, gypsies etc. They have a very healthy population today with few heriditory diseases. I am sorry I do not recall the country, but you can check.

By focusing on race and intelligence are people suggesting a controlled breeding program to improve the breeding stock. Or maybe genocide sterilization to selectively breed only from the stronger brighter members of a society. Is this not normally covered by female animals under normal circumstances selecting only males who they think will be useful to them. Males who are going to be failures don't get much choice. Is Eugenics or enforced sterilisation not just forcibly improving the gene pool, which will if left to its own devices slowly improve.

Right. This is evidence that there is no aether.

That would depend on how you define the aether. If the aether is equated to space which transmits all known forces such as gravity, it might be interesting to measure the mass of the motors before and after they have been ran. Stretched space would imply an additional mass apparent or otherwise. Is there a gravity anomaly around a motor after it has ran for a few minutes ? The double slit experiment leaves waves for a time, photons create a disturbance in space and a gravity field around them, which can attract other photons. The Aspden effect could of course be due to residual magnetism, increased resistance in the windings, bearings becoming more efficient (or not) etc . The effect does happen, it is just a question of why it happens. Could a spinning motor affect the stretching or contraction of space, and in some way affect the motors inertia.

 

 

Why does it affect the clocks we use to measure, but not the cells in our body?

 

So, here is a thought experiment.

 

You are travelling at, say, 98% of the speed of light. According to your hypothesis, your clock would run slow, but your body would not. Therefore, you would be able to see that your clock was running slow; e.g. by comparing your heart rate (which is not affected) with your clock (which is). Is that correct?

If you did not want to have heart failure using your clock, your heart rate would have to speed up, otherwise you would die. Using a stationery reference clock your heart would tick as normal. Moving through space and gravitational fields is likely to cause increased aging to your cells and not cause them to go into some hibernation state.

 

 

Why are the atoms in a clock different from the atoms in your body?

 

 

What makes you think that the movements of fermions in a human body wont also be affected, by being in a gravitational field or moving through it.

Everything is affected by the stretching of space, it doesn't cause you to age faster or slower, time dilation is just an effect of the way we measure time when an instrument is moving ref to another

Your idea doesn't make sense because this is a theory of relativity.

 

So if a spaceship comes flying past you, you will see its clock run slow. You say that is a mechanical effect caused by the motion of the spaceship. But the people on that ship will see their clock run normally but will see your clock run slow.

 

So how can that be a mechanical effect on the clock, when people disagree about which clock is affected?

The people on that ship will be aware that there clock is running slow and age normally. If there was a stationery ref base for an atomic clock in space, that was not expanding, perhaps you could compare your age by that, or perhaps look at the aging process in your cells, which is likely to be increased by being bashed around, and possibly damaged by being moved through gravitational fields, and distorted space,

 

This is incredibly wrong. I agree with the others; it's completely ridiculous that you would think that time dilation only occurs for clocks and nothing else in the universe. Us and clocks are both physical objects, it time dilation affects one, it affects the other.

 

Yes, the clock runs slower due to dilation, but so does everything else.

 

If you intend to be as stubborn as you have been so far, then please prove that time dilation doesn't exist. It should be very easy to design an experiment. You will win a Nobel prize if you are correct. But you are wrong.

If I position 10 atomic clocks at the same altitude in geostationary orbits all ticking at the same speed, and fly another past all these stationery clocks, through space, which affects the clocks movement affecting the time it measures, it does not mean actual time has slowed down, it means the actual instrument has slowed down due to the medium space it is passing through. As the mobile clock passes each stationery clock it will see a slight difference in time, but it exists at the same instant in time according to the stationery clock, it has not slowed time.

If I position 10 grandfather clocks at the same altitude in geostationary orbits all ticking at the same speed, and fly another past all these stationery clocks, through the air with the pendulum exposed to the wind, which affects the clocks movement affecting the time it measures, it does not mean actual time has slowed down, it means the actual instrument has slowed down due to the medium air it is passing through. As the mobile clock passes each stationery clock it will see a slight difference in time, but it exists at the same instant in time according to the stationery clock, it has not slowed time.

Time is just a convenient invention to work out where we are in space at any given time. It does not slow down or speed up. A Photon goes at light speed indefinitely, in space that is moving relative to us. Time is not stationery for the photon, we can work out how long it will take to travel a given distance, and arrive at a position.

 

One last time (pun intended)

 

There is no such thing as absolute time,

 

which your statement necessitates to be true.

The instrument slows down used to measure time, in its spacial reference frame. Not actual time.

 

 

You said "everything". But previously you said it only affected "mechanical atoms" and not "living atoms".

 

So, is it everything or is it only atoms that are dead?

 

No one is going to disagree with that. So I'm not sure what your point is.

 

(Note that the people carrying the clocks will also be "reading different times"; i.e. have aged differently. Otherwise we would see our clocks slow down. Which doesn't happen.)

Living organisms are not clocks their aging process are not governed by an instrument that is running slow due to it being moved through a medium.

My point is Time Dilation is like the kings new clothes, it is an effect seen on instruments but it does not allow your cells to live longer in a different time reference frame.

 

 

The energy from temperature is a very small component. kT for room temperature is about 0.025 eV. Halving or doubling that is still a small number compared to the several eV necessary for ionization.

 

EM waves cause free charges to move. The energy for the motion comes from the EM wave, hence the amplitude is reduced.

Does GPS transmit easily pass through positively ionized air with the electrons driven off after an EM pulse. How long does it take for the electrons to recombine, and emit photons, or radiation. If there is a deficiency of electrons in the air, the remaining positively charges atoms will become highly mobile and collide with other less charged atoms, causing them also to become ionized.

Water vapour in the air at around 2000C is mostly fully broken down into hydrogen and oxygen, H+ and O-, by heat, kinetic energy. Would the EM pulse drive the electrons away from the Oxygen. What is the rise time of an EM pulse and how much energy do they have. Is it this charge that is used to knock out Electronics using high altitude nuclear bombs. How does one go about calculating the amount of charge in or induced by the EM pulse. Does an EM pulse cause an avalanche effect as in a Plasma.

How does that not contradict your own claims about clocks and life span?

It does not contradict anything I have said on this thread. It reinforces what I am saying. Time Dilation as measured on clocks is due to the location of the clock in gravitational field, and movement through space. Time does not slow down, it is just the clock or method used for measuring time slows down. If two clocks move of in different directions and arrive back at the same location reading different times. They both exist at the same time, and place. Their clocks have just been ticking slower due to the influence of distorted space around them.

If space is viewed as a substance like a very fine fluid flowing in and around everything, it becomes easier to visualize the gravitational potentials around waves(particles) travelling through the substance of space.

If you stick with gravity potential wells it works the same way but isn't so easy to visualize or as dynamic.