1x0

 

What properties does it have, and how do you measure them?

Can we look at matter as matterialized information?

Mathematics? Measure the presented value in proportion to nothing and in proportion to everything?

Every physical entity present a certain level of information.

Information exist beyond the observable physical reality (metaphysical values as consciousness, intelligence, knowledge, personality etc)

Does/should physical descriptions count with the presence of information?

Can/should we count information as physical entity?

This is the question of if we create mathematics or discover it. I tend to side with discover, but as this cannot be tested I do not think it is an important difference.

 

 

 

 

But all have found applications of some form in physics. It is true that the original motivations were not physics directed, you can find examples of applications of all three subjects you state. In fact I use methods form algebraic geometry and category theory all the time, though I work in mathematical physics which is closer to mathematics than physics.

 

I am surprised a mathematician would disagree.

I would say that we discover as our complete mathematical understanding originates from the observed physical reality. It can be tested I think as we can inspect the physical operations and we can set mathematical values and axioms basically to anything we would like to (binary system?)

The question is: Does mathematical operations clearly follow the observed physical reality?

If not what is the reason that we use the mathematical tool as we do?

Do we understand and exploit the mathematical tool 100%?

Can some of the disturbances(undertermined axioms) depend on that we do not adjust the mathematical tool to the observed evolving reality?

OK so you mean integers.

 

It is interesting that you have included zero in your list.

 

Mathematically the set of positive integers is usually called the natural or counting numbers.

Since zero is neither positive nor negative it is usually excluded.

However some do include it in the set.

 

 

The best origination for these numbers is in the name 'counting' numbers.

 

The idea of a whole of complete unit precedes that of counting and the natural numbers.

 

Once you have a unit the numbers follow naturally from the process of counting ie adding a single unit each time to the last.

 

This will not help much if your objective is to study integer algebra eg Diophantine equations, but it is a start and your original post was very sparse.

I try to understand our physical reality and the origin of our mathematical understanding. I think without our physical reality math as such would not exist. I think we started to develop math related to our observations and understanding the physically presented values (trees...apples..animals...etc)

Because of this I asked myself does mathematics and its operations has to follow the inspected physical reality to be a clear and Universal language?

I also asked myself is there any negative value in the inspected physical reality and what is the origin of the negative values we work with?

I realized that I can not provide any physical unit which would be lower than physical zero (the total absence of everything as information, space, time, energy, matter)

I realized that there is no lower value than nothing exist but there are opposite values and we present them as negative numbers.

Do you think mathematics evolving or is it a firm absolutly clear tool. The same tool which would be used by an advanced alian race 1 billion LY away from us (I quess they have evolved theirs understanding related the physical reality they observed and that reality originates from the same Laws of Nature what we experience)

The question is should mathematics follow the inspected reality and adjust its operations related to the observations (at the end of the day science is all about extracting and processing information) ?

I incoulded zero because as I understood the Universe is evolving, and if I follow this evolutionary path backwards at the end I reach to the physical zero state as the original state of the system we live in(space(time), energy, matter, information free nothing).

As such zero could be the only mathematical conception ever clearly existed.

Maybe one other mathematical unit could exist and that is the whole universe counted as One. Than everything we inspect in the system would be materialized information and could be expressed as a fractal in proportion the the whole. I also suggest that we are able to make sense of the physical reality because we exist in proportion to zero. I also suggest that we are not able to operate with zero since zero is a conception ever since anything is existing. (zero is basically a reference point)

I hope it made sense. I am a curious mind and I have difficulties to make sense why we use math as we do today.

There is no rule that says that mathematics has to say anything about the real world. However, it seems that just about every branch of mathematics can find an application in physics. It is true that not every result is of importance in physics, but generally every branch seems to say something.

 

It was also said to me that every important result in mathematics was either motivated by physics or quickly found application in physics. This seems to be generally true in my opinion.

Could mathematics exist without the physical reality?

Could our mathematical understanding exist without physical reality?

I mean: Our brain processing the information we gain from the observed reality and related to that information we determined the axioms of the mathematical tool we use. Without a physical tool as our brain and without the observed physical reality we live in mathematics would not exist. Or?

Perhaps you would elaborate on what you mean by the natural numbers?

0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.....

What are the reference points which makes the values presented by natural numbers so solid?

Does mathematical operations has to follow the observed reality?

 

!

Moderator Note

That's the same nonscience that got your thread(s) locked. They are off-topic, and you may not bring the discussion up again.

Please Swansont give a physical example where 1*0=0 or any other observable explanation for this axiom.

 

Are you hinting that I do not understand the subject, and want to put me right

I suggest that we have misconceptions in the language of the Universe. Right no it feels it is supporting a human conception or mental structure rather then the operations in physical reality.

 

Yes it all has to do with the frame of reference and the oddness of understanding relativity.

The reference is everything and nothing

It is to understand physical value and represent it with the universal language as it is.

1x0

1(any physical value described by the natural number one) Or in our case the hole universe as all space(time), information, energy, matter........

0: the total abscence of everything or in other words - space(time), information, energy, matter free nothing.

The Universe what we inspect is a cascade of events evolved from the physical nothing to everything what we see.

Regardless from the circumstances of existence everything in the system exist in the same moment of reality(A létezés körülményeitöl függetlenül a rendeszerben lévö összes elem egy idöpillanatban létezik.)

On the level of information we are at least 13.8 billion years old.

The matematical tool what we use has to respect the value presented as physical reality.

Mathematics is the projected explanation.

It is the language which can explain physical reality.

If a higher intelligence existing 1 billion LY away in the same moment of reality and it could ask you: Do you understand mathematical reality? Could you answer?

The operations of mathematics has to follow the observed reality. 1x0

We are not alone, We have a busy Universe but we can not read in it.

Time is information about the physical reality.

Time can differe throughout the universe but the differences in the circumstances gives the differences in the perception.

In other worlds the moment of now is the same but the circumstances of reality and perception is different.

For example: My body is existing in a 4D spacetime. In our current understanding of relativity at my head there is a different time than at my toe. My concern is that the differences what the measurments of time presents depends on the differences in the measured circumstances. (gravity is weaker at my head than at my toe)

So time is a relative information and everything actually happens at the same time. Doesn´t matter that space are curved or time pass slower or faster because every physical entity shares a moment (a fragment of time in the individual circumstances they exist in) with the rest of the system.

There is just one present moment which is cut in the physical reality.

My thought is that this present moment happens throughout the Universe at the same moment indipendent from the physical circumstances. In other worlds every physical entity can have its own time relative to it´s circumstances it is existing in and relative the rest of the system but time will pass everywhere in the universe so no matter which circumstences they exist in they share a moment of now with everything else.

The FRW solutions are globally hyperbolic. So yes, you can define a notion of 'now' everywhere in the universe.

If there is a common moment of now and this common moment of now we share since the beginning of time what makes the difference in the measurement of time?

Time can differ throughout the universe but isn´t the differences in the circumstances gives the differences in the perception.

In other worlds the moment of now is the same but the circumstances of reality and perception is different.

Can time be a linear information about physical units/conceptions?

Time is different throughout the universe.

I think there is a common moment of now because something happening everywhere.

The question is what makes time different if there is a common moment of now since the beginning of the Universe?

Is it the combined effect of space and gravity?

Isnt´t time a firm information and space, speed, gravitational effects differes?

Share your thoughts.

The One.

Everything appears to be 1. Maybe more 0,00...0001. A clear physical entity with it´s own properties.

Find the way to discribe One.

0x1=1

0,1x0=0,01

0,01x0=0,001

0.00..001*0=0.00..001

We are describing values in the system related to our common understanding. One electron, one subatomic particle, one earth, one sun, one milky way, one Laszlo, one Strange one, one anyone... And what those ones builded by? Other little ones, each one of them with own caracteristics. A lot of little ones.

1/0=1

Zero represents the value of nothing.

0*0=0 no information

0/0=0 no space

0+0=0 no time

0-0=0 no energy

0=0 nothing

1 = any physical unit or entity separated from the others by space time energy matter information wise. Decribed in the sytem as our current understanding. Basically everything is one or o,ooo..001.

One part of One.

Any operation between noting and any physically presented value will result the physically represented value.

1x0=1 nothing happened (maybe space and time passed

The system is a positive system. There are opposite values but nothing is lower or physically less than the first state of the system: Nothing. The state of the physical zero.

Space, time, energy, matter, information free nothing.

Our common philosophical, physical, mathematical reference point. 0

1 or 0,1 or 0.0001 or 0.00...001 will always represent the value what we describe with it related to our current understanding. I mean you have no idea how big and how old is the system. So you can use it relative to your current understanding. Start it from what you know already. What you know for sure is that the things you see around you are existing. The operations of mathematics MUST follow and describe the physical reality what we live in!

All information, energy, matter in common space-time. This is One. I am One. A developing One! There is just One common space we exist in. We are all together One. One Humanity maybe?

The exact age of the universe does not change because the system is real-a-tive

Tomorrow I will work on my English. I hope you could make some sense what I mean

Maybe should be moved to speculations

Peace

This is still very unclear. Can you give an example.

 

 

Don't confuse the empty set with its cardinality. Zero is not 'nothing'.

One atom, one electron, one apple, one ajb etc.

Zero is one conception, not? If zero is not "nothing" then what is it or more how much is it? Does the physical and mathematical zero is the same?

As Strange asks what is 'original value' in this context?

Any physical entity/unit/value described by the natural number one. I wonder why at the end of the operation 1x0 the original value (one) is not present. Where is it?

Also if zero is nothing then why the operation with it will change the properties of the "original value"? This question apply to the 1/0 operation too. Specially that it seems that everything in our universe is positive, while there are opposite values in the system, lower value than nothing basically does not exist. Or?

 

There is no "now" for the whole universe.

 

Why not?

 

Yeah, like the natural numbers can't be infinite because the number 5 exists.

 

What does "the moment of reality" even mean?

LOL

Now for the whole universe.

 

Like the natural numbers it could start at 0 and go on forever.

But you have the limit provided by the moment of reality. It is a certain number at the moment of observation. It has the property to expand towards infinity but it is a well defined information at that moment of observation.

 

Yes, actually, it would.

How and why? If time has an starting point how can it be infinite in an observed moment of reality?

 

There are infinite number of natural numbers. They start at zero.

 

True.

We could set a natural number next to every subatomic particle, electron and photon in the Universe and as we add them together they would give a natural number. One which would evolve in every moment. Still it would be a finite number. A natural number exist in reality. Math beyond the physical reality is a mental concept.

 

That is an old philosophical debate: is math invented or discovered. My impression is that most mathematicians think it is is discovered, so it exists independently of the brain.

 

But i didn't think that was the point you were making. I thought you meant that mathematical concepts have to be based on something that has physical existence. That doesn't seem to be true.

I agree that math is discovered.

Math as the construction of information presented through the physical reality. Do not waist time on patterns what the huge world of numbers reveils if it do not fit or apply in the physical reality. It would be just a waist of your time.

The question is what was before? Information(can we mathematically explain that) or the physical reality?

I would say that information were present exactly before or in the same time as phsycal reality appeared. Information which determined the evoluton of the phsycal reality.

Math has to provide a clear explanation for the operations with zero as well as a clear expalantion on what is zero. An explanation what a 6 year old would understand too. Math has to adapt and respect the physically presented values. Math has to provide explanations for the system based on it or if math is a result of the physical system then follow what it has to say. If math is able to explain the first physical process and provide explanation for the physical values presented in the system then math is the true language of everything.

1x0=0? Where is the original value of the operation?

2x2=4 Does the result of the operation presents the original value?

1/0=?

Time not having an end makes it infinite. But it hasn't passed yet — that doesn't have to extend in the other direction.

Time having a starting point and not having an end does not make it infinite.

Time presents the possibility of forever existence and so infinity but it will be an exact value in every moment of the physical reality if it do not exand on the other direction.

How can something be infinite if it does not extend in the other direction? I mean in every moment time provides information about the age of the system. It can evolve towards infinity but at the moment of observation the system is a complete one finite system with one possible age. Or? What I don´t see here, where am I mistaken?

 

No it isn't.

Yes it is. Math as you know would not exist if your brain as a physical tool would not be able to process the information provided by the physical reality you exist in.

Than where is it from?