barfbag

@ Johnc,

Again you are confusing and mixing my words.

I didn't.

What I said was

"They then have a bloke who says "I know about photovoltaics etc" (i.e. he's a physicist) and then says "based on the chemistry involved..."

So, he may have a PhD, but it's not in the subject he is talking about.

 

But I had said this...

I was wondering why you were calling a Physics Doctorate a Chemist Doctorate, it is because you were referencing an old video. I thought you were mentioning the Physics PhD from the OP videos

 

Let me say it again in BOLD

I thought you were discussing the PHYSICS PhD from the other video. YOU ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE ROWAN UNIVERSITY CHEMISTRY PhD

Okay.. I'm getting confused. I do not know if the Rowan University guy (cant even recall his name) is a Chemistry or Physics PhD. The Physics PhD I was referring to was one of three validators in the original OP demonstration.

If he is a Phd in Physics then who better to look at experiments proving the current model of hydrogen is flawed and that it has a more stable version.

 

(Actually, he's described elsewhere as an engineer.)

 

Yes. If you consider a Professor of Engineering (The Rowan University Video) the same as an Engineer.

J

ansson completed his doctoral thesis on high-resolution infrared spectroscopy.His first optics-related job was with Perkin-Elmer, where he designed an early commercial digital spectrocolorimeter.Dr. Jansson earned a B.S. in Physics from Stevens Institute of Technology (1964), and a Ph.D. in Physics from Florida State University

 

So it is a Physics Doctorate in both videos. Who better to confirm Hydrogen has a more stable version than a Physics PhD?

ACG52,

These are new PhDs. They have no reputation to stake.

 

When you say "these". Whom are you referring to. Name some. Most of them seem fairly old and well respected or Professors at Universities.

http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/

each validation on that link has accompanying RESUME

such as

http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/CopelandBio.pdf

or

http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/GlumacCV.pdf

Some are even companies with teams of PhD's, such as...

http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/ENSERBios.pdf

These Doctorates seem very reputable and not new.

(I am not endorsing this technology as real, but so far most posts trying to discredit the idea are not being accurate (always) in their discreditation, and I am responding with what I know as I have followed this topic for some time before considering it a possible contender for breakthrough energy.)

@ Ten,oz,

produce a millisecond event that they then claim is consistently repeatable over time and the energy from it can be collected at 100%. Photovoltaic cells don't work at even 50% muchless 100% though. As for the heat being produced it takes energy to produce heat and photo cells don't capture heat.

 

The Plasma Bursts are so terribly blinding cameras could not do justice to it and the brightness is (they claim) 1000 times brighter than the sun from the point of view of a PV (solar ) cell. You are correct that PV cells only work at a fraction of their capacity in direct sunlight, but that can be increased through the use of mirrors.

A normal PV cell like the ones on my boat would work at 100% with this blinding light, and they are looking at higher quality versions that can handle more light. For now I think they are using just regular solar panel cells.

As for the heat being produced it takes energy to produce heat and photo cells don't capture heat.

 

They do not want any heat. This might have been confused with a few recent posts. Blacklight was after heat capture in the past, but they have been at this 25 years. They are ONLY wanting light.

They use high current at low voltage to produce a millisecond event that they then claim is consistently repeatable over time

 

Exactly! they claim they can speed up the flashes and have been doing so. This is their third demo and was said to be demonstrating

a) Specific events included: ignition of H2O-based solid fuel in air

b) a unit that demonstrated those elements of the fast ignition and regeneration

So speeding up the flashes is what is required. You are the first person to look at the problems they still face if their theory is correct.

They need to keep the flashes going and speed them up otherwise it's a paperweight, although they address these issues in depth in the demo. It still remains to be seen.

Kudo's Ten Oz for at least considering the alternate theory with some effort. It's appreciated. We won't know if this will work, but making bright plasma flashes from water fuel is pretty impressive (if true).

@ Johnc,

Yes. I said

You seem stuck on your notion that they want to run a power station, so please show me where you got this misleading information and I will fit it into correct context for you. You seem stuck on that. Show me where that information was because it certainly is not their intention to say that. I further think you took the validators either out of context or in reference to CIHT cells or something.

 

I was showing that various Doctorates like the one in video are staking their reputations on this. I AM SPEAKING OF HYDRINO THEORY!!!!!!!!!

At that point of the discussion I was showing BLP had many PhD' supporting their findings over the years, and that they would also need to be in on the fraud if it is one.

This video is FIVE(5) YEARS OLD! This is not where they are now.

BLP was pursuing the CIHT Cell even up to the end of last year. Their creation of the Plasma Bursts had them take a different route.

This was explained repeatedly, and repeatedly throughout this thread.

I was wondering why you were calling a Physics Doctorate a Chemist Doctorate, it is because you were referencing an old video. I thought you were mentioning the Physics PhD from the OP videos

If I have no idea how it operates then I'm not the only one. Nor do the people who made the video.

Have you actually watched it?

 

Well you certainly don't grasp how their SUNCELL is supposed to work if you think it has anything to do with the harnessing of anything other than light.

We are 25 comments into this and you don't seem to have a clue as to how it "allegedly" operates.

You seem stuck on your notion that they want to run a power station, so please show me where you got this misleading information and I will fit it into correct context for you. You seem stuck on that. Show me where that information was because it certainly is not their intention to say that. I further think you took the validators either out of context or in reference to CIHT cells or something.

I listened to it all, and watched most of it, and I do not recognize anything like what your position states.

I cannot believe you are actually arguing that this device is not meant to 100% harness light energy only.

Watch video below starting at 1 hour and 2 minutes in)... This explains their process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxuoMzm2HNE#t=3912

or 1:05:30 ... (I will edit if I find better walkthrough)

@ 1:08:30 an animation is shown.

Heck... Just read description of video from youtube,

Specific events included: ignition of H2O-based solid fuel in air and argon atmospheres, calorimetric energy balance determination under argon, EUV spectroscopy of the hydrogen transitions to hydrinos, theory, technical, engineering, and commercialization presentations, and live demonstrations of BlackLight’s Third Generation SunCell with Photovoltaic Conversion of Light to Electricity. The main engineering aspects of the presentation were the complete system design and a unit that demonstrated those elements of the fast ignition and regeneration as well as optical distribution and photovoltaic conversion systems.

@ JohC further,

I cannot believe you have commented on this thread so freely without even understanding the concept. You weigh in with much opinion, but if you cannot even comprehend the topic how can any of your posts here be taken seriously?

I believe others have at least understood the concept.

@ JohnC,

Utter bollocks

No its true.

http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/light_lessons/thermal/differ.html

I appreciate that you actually took some time and watched a bit of the demo, but I do not see how you think temperature or heat have anything to do with the power they are generating. The energy release is primarily light that is much brighter than the sun and can more effectively use PV cells that only run at about 17% efficiency when using sunlight.

Also, they show that they don';t know what they are talking about because they claim the heat production if "of a very large magnitude".

Well, clearly, it isn't.

You are not going to run a power station on something with an energy density that's roughly 20 times less than that of coal.

 

(adding bold above for emphasis.)

So why are you suggesting this device requires the boiling capacity of coal? What power station? Are you referring to a solar panel as a power station?

Coal cannot run a PV (solar) cell.

It is funny that that post where you claimed this got a thumbs up response as even after watching some of the demo you ( and whoever agreed with that post ) still appear to have no idea how the device "allegedly" operates.

The idea is to create a small harmless sun ( hence name SUNCELL ) by having continuous plasma bursts (using moisture in air as fuel) in rapid succession that give of almost all of its energy as light. Then this light is harnessed through PV Cells and Fiber optics to create electricity.

see.. no power stations required. No heat required except whats in creation of Plasma Bursts.

they clearly say in the video that they are measuring heat output. nothing about light.

 

You edited this line into your statement. It originally just said "Utter bollocks".

So I am not editing my initial response.

I will say though,

Seriously? The entire demonstration and 3 hours plus of discussion on that video is entirely about light. You seem to have found something out of context or in relation to something else (maybe their previous CIHT CELLS).

This is entirely about capturing ONLY the light produced.. ONLY the light..

@ JohnC,

they show that they don';t know what they are talking about because they claim the heat production if "of a very large magnitude".

Well, clearly, it isn't.

You are not going to run a power station on something with an energy density that's roughly 20 times less than that of coal.

 

There is a difference between heat and temperature. They make no claims to capture heat energy or kinetic energy. They are ONLY channeling the produced light into solar cells.

@ Swansont,

a metastable state, that only Randal Mills can cause to decay to the ground state.

 

No. I linked validation reports with replications. The video had a Professor from the University of Illinois saying he was running replications there, etc., etc.

barfbag, on 26 Jul 2014 - 1:31 PM, said:

This is recent news about a company claiming a recent breakthrough that has been causing a lot of internet discussion. It is not 50 year old science found in text books.

Oooh, internet discussion. Stop the presses. Nothing wacky ever gets discussed on the internet.

 

Okay this is straw man because you are changing the argument.

My comment above in quotes was in response to this

it would really help to have an actual validly-derived model that showed this.

 

So I answered that this is a new area of science in response to your request for a model. I was not using the internet as a source. I have linked validation reports and papers.

My phrase was never meant to suggest internet discussions were the validations as many validations have been cited whether faulty or not.

I am not supporting this idea, but I am answering your questions.

@ Ten oz,

Now you are looking into it. I should link some data you might like, but I think if anyone has interest enough they can just keep an eye on them or find the data themselves.

@ Strange,

he is being rubbished on the web because he is wrong.

 

No. I think being deluded can be ruled out.

If it does not work then he has paid off a dozen plus PhD's to put their reputations on the line saying this works and also someone deluded would not have positive findings if they were "wrong"

It would need to be out and out fraud. Not only by him, but by Doctorates such as the ones in Mondays Demonstration video (linked earlier).

I think you'll be fine with that assumption also.

Rowan University did a replication... (below) (starts at 30 seconds in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bomq8S0ynQ

So this is just one of the Doctorates that would need to be in on the scam (if it is a scam).

Or let's not forget

A materials scientist from the University of Illinois spoke via Skype and said,

he has independently replicated most of what BLP has done with similar results and he has a unit currently running at U of Illinois. He is doing additional data analysis. He also said that he measured the UV spectra from the SunCell and it couples really well with PV cells. So he thinks the light it is producing is as beneficial as sunlight.

 

I could go on with many University Professors and Doctorates all either confirming replication or whom must be lying according to the consensus here so far.

@ Strange,

As I said before, I have read his "scientific" ideas before.

 

Not in this thread. Nothing you have said so far indicates that you had heard of it before today. Discussing past patents is information someone could obtain with 5 minutes and a search Engine.

However.

I had not considered you were acquainted with the material so I apologize for assuming you were not informed.

The company is acting a lot differently as of late. They seem very celebratory compared to earlier times. In 2009 when they were saying 5 years (it is 5 years by the way), they were still working with the CIHT cells.

Now they seem excited.. Global Patents, constant demonstrations. Engineering details. If anyone asks him a direct question in a polite manner (cough) he usually responds. I had questioned how he keeps his optics clean.

The CIHT cell has many validations (linked earlier or on their website) , and each validation has the CV of the validator attached.. The reason it was abandoned appears to be this avenue presented itself and seemed more viable with a lot more potential energy.

Three validators begin talking at 42 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TKgrOjac6Y#t=2618

@ JohnC,

The reason many people continue to work after they have more money than they could ever spend is likely that they are doing something they enjoy. My contention is he is enjoying the pursuit of cheap green energy. Your contention must be that he enjoys being a fraud. Sometimes the people who make $11 000 000 though are still on the same train that earned them $10 000 000. Whenever I go on vacation half the couples we meet own a company that someone else is running with not much work needed on their part.

@ Ten oz,

Thanks

@ Strange,

You are getting pretty heated about defending it though. Even though the "science" is not "fringe" it is completely and utterly bogus. Stop wasting your time on it.

 

I defend the idea of thoroughly examining an idea before dismissing it. Your post #2 was less than ten minutes after I had posted, and your arguments in that post had been addressed before. So I was not so much defending as reiterating.

I could claim any current research is bogus, or why bother with research at all if they can simply look things up in textbooks.

So I guess it DOES make sense there is no place to discuss it.

 

You said it was "patent pending" technology (and that was why you could not test it).

 

No. I don't think I came close to saying anything resembling that remark. I said it was patent pending before, but who said anything about testing it?

You mention old patents of the CIHT Cells, but they had problems getting them to work.

Even the current Plasma Bursts were initially so destructive they burned the electrodes. This was overcome and now there is a gap between the electrodes and plasma burst. The difference in our views is that I have at least looked at it and read about it before commenting.

@ JohnC,

"HE IS A REAL MEDICAL DOCTOR (Not just PhD) and can easily earn $100-$400k per year just being a Doctor"

"He then stopped being a Medical Doctor and has spent the past 25 years trying to make his Theory into a working energy source."

 

OK, so, if he had carried on at 400K per year for 25 years he would have raised ten million.

By changing his career "He has raised and spent 60-80 million USD".

 

Yes. I suppose if he were allowed by law to pocket all that money he could have 10 bathrooms in his house instead of 6. (Example: I don't know if his house has any bathrooms).

Investors usually have access to the books of any company. I'm sure if he was paying himself more than something reasonable someone might complain. I would think companies and individuals contributing $60+ million might use some common sense.

So your point in the last post seems to be that he is engaging in fraud because $10 million in earnings is not enough to satisfy him, and he is willing to risk jail for an extra few bathrooms in his house.

I mean I cannot imagine too much of a different lifestyle if you had another $50 million. S Series Mercedes or Cadillacs are still the car you'd be driving either way, although I think he has a BMW. Your restaurants will be the same. Your choice of fine women would likely be better if you were a Doctor than an alternative theorist.

@ Swansont and Ten oz,

I am with Swansont. Easiest way to test that a power source works is to run it under load.

 

I agree. If anyone had watched the demonstration video (would need an interest in the topic), then they would know they are moving this along at a rapid speed. They are also producing the power to light the lights. I think measuring power in and power out is enough for them and many. Had he run it under its own power it would not convince anybody here, but measurements and data are available.

Their first demo of the year basically was just showing they could get a plasma burst from moisture. It was only a one shot deal. In their second demo they had multiple bangs in a machine gun fire succession. In this demonstration the burst occur much more rapidly.

Anyways. I am describing what I have seen and read when there is plenty out there for anyone with interest to explore.

I am not arguing for it, but honestly every point you guys are making has been addressed in the video's and slides, and previous demos.

Here is older Demo from just a month ago (device only). It shows the electrodes are not destroyed anymore by a single burst, and has LED lights demonstrating they are getting some power from this. The Bursts are brighter than your monitors will allow so imagine them bright enough to blind someone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxmjJ3ecn48

Published on Jun 6, 2014

BLP's Electricity-Generation Test of Automated Ignition System of Auger-Fed H2O-Based Solid Fuel Powder:
A very small quantity of highly conductive H2O-based solid fuel powder was loaded in to a hopper and gravity fed into an auger overhead of rollers electrodes that were electrified with about 5V, 20,000A. The high current flow ignited the gravity fed fuel to produce 0.5 ms pulses of brilliant light-emitting plasma having power and power densities of one million watts and 100 billion watts per liter, respectively. The optical power of the white light having the same temperature as the Sun was converted to electricity using commercial solar cells surrounding the plasma.

 

Note: There is no commentary/notes or statistics with this basic video. They are available on their website.

THIS VIDEO IS FROM THEIR LAST DEMO. THE DEMO LINKED IN OP IS WHERE THEY ARE NOW.

@ Strange,

He has been spouting this crap for years. All these "free energy" nuts do the same. None of them quietly go into business selling energy and become billionaires. It is some sort of ego trip, I guess ("look at how clever I am").

 

How clever you are? Clever enough to exactly repeat a concept I said in the OP which was,

Many people claim he's fraudulent because it has taken 25 years. People supporting him 15 years ago are growing weary.

 

 

All these "free energy" nuts do the same. None of them quietly go into business selling energy

 

All of them implies it can never happen. I mean if they are all nuts.

 

He has been filing patents on this for years. Some of the oldest ones have already expired. They should provide enough information for anyone to reproduce the technology (that is the purpose of patents) so knock yourself out.

 

You obviously do not read posts before you respond to them. This was also covered.

Also from OP,

investigators of fringe science should look at logical progressions in the technology over the years.

 

The CIHT CELL he was developing based on his theory is not even close to what he is proposing now, His earlier versions (see confirmations) were more like modern LENR with Nickel Hydrogen Lithium Catalyst much like where LENR is today. SEE VALIDATION REPORTS IN LINK I PREVIOUSLY GAVE. (here it is again.)

http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/

He is now making Plasma Bursts that then use Solar Cells to convert to power.

I also had said in OP,

(NOTE: 5 years ago they were attacking it from another angle. More like LENR. The Plasma into Solar Cells is new within this timeframe)

 

This is something the seemed to have learned only within the past year and they seem very excited with 3 demos so far this year.

@ Swansont,

If there was an energy level below the ground state, that would be the ground state.

 

Is it fun to confuse the issue? Obviously it was meant as below the "accepted" ground state.

it would really help to have an actual validly-derived model that showed this.

 

This is recent news about a company claiming a recent breakthrough that has been causing a lot of internet discussion. It is not 50 year old science found in text books.

I was thinking of starting the OP in Speculations, and even suggested it be moved in the OP, although I think a topic should exist for discussing fringe science. I mean areas that are under known financial study but are not mainstream science with results pending.

I HAVE NOT CLAIMED THIS IS REAL. I PRESENTED FACTS FOR AND AGAINST.

Hang on, why don't they do that? Why doesn't anyone? Why isn't there one of these boxes in every town across the world?

 

I did not say they invented it 25 years ago. I am saying this is patent pending globally atm. Are you suggesting we should not discuss fringe science. Could you have bought a toaster while it was being invented? That comment does seem a little silly since it does not follow logic. How can you buy something that is in development?

THE FACT THAT HE IS A REAL MEDICAL DOCTOR (Not just PhD) and can easily earn $100-$400k per year just being a Doctor and is Phi Beta Kappa does not make what he is claiming true.

 

Then why mention it?

 

Often People think fraudulent activities are for financial rewards. By demonstrating that he was well trained in one of the Highest paying Professions (Medical Doctor) might ease that conclusion.

Maybe he is just deluded. Who cares.

 

I think I also said that. I am not claiming that was real. I was showing an alternative energy demonstration that has raised some interest of late. Your response was too quick to have watched the Demonstration video (It's 1-4 hours long) so you obviously are commenting based on your own idea that alternative energy is not possible? Where does such logic come from?

If however he is deluded then explain how the device is working. There are validators present in the videos. Blacklight has always followed a stringent validation process along all of its paths.

Here is some former validations in their favour.

http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/

So your input is that this PHI BETA KAPPA Harvard Educated Medical Doctor is deluded despite having results to show for his work all along the way. That certainly is likely a common view here I bet.

If it is delusion then why is there working prototypes. Working prototypes like in demonstration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxuoMzm2HNE#t=3912

above (last video) would mean he has to be a fraud and then again, what would be the motivation?

I mean you cannot delude successful demonstrations or validations.

Why not watch at least the first 3 minutes of that link above before commenting?

He explains where they are and what they are doing well.

What logic is there in discounting something you won't even look at?

First: Moderators... Move this to any appropriate section. I was thinking of even starting this in speculations/Trash can because this forum has no specific area for fringe science that I can see. For instance if the wright brothers were inventing the airplane today what area would we discuss it if no papers had been released. I use flight as an example because some mainstream science was denying flight was possible years after flight had occurred.

While I do not think it deserves a place in physics. I also think trashing all fringe science is not something wise people would do.

So I'm putting it in science news?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay.

This story is (possibly fiction) about a Harvard Educated Medical Doctor who also has Chemistry degrees and training in Electromechanical Engineering from MIT. He is also Phi Beta Kappa, which is an intellectual distinction.

So this Harvard Educated Doctor was seeing patients, prescribing medicines and such and invented several things.

He invented Magnetic Susceptibility Imaging (MSI)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5073858.html

This device is mainly used for detailed Brain Scans and has proven helpful in the study of epilepsy.

He also invented MIRAGE (Mossbauer Isotopic Resonant Absorption of Gamma Emission).

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4815447.html

"a cancer therapy comprising a Mossbauer isotope derivatized DNA binding pharmaceutical and radiation which activates the isotope in situ to cause eradication of cancer with radiation doses of one millionth that conventionally used during radiation therapy."

THE FACT THAT HE IS A REAL MEDICAL DOCTOR (Not just PhD) and can easily earn $100-$400k per year just being a Doctor and is Phi Beta Kappa does not make what he is claiming true.

This guy "Dr. Randell Mils" then wrote a Theory of Everything book that disagrees with Mainstream Physics.

He then stopped being a Medical Doctor and has spent the past 25 years trying to make his Theory into a working energy source.

His main disagreement with current physics is his claim Hydrogen can exist having a lower energy than the normal ground state. He calls it a Hydrino, and there is plenty of information about it online, but most all of it says it is wrong and that Dr. Mills is a fraud.

(NOTE: Dr. Mills also claims the Hydrino is Dark matter)

The Theory predicts Hydrogen collapsing to the Hydrino state can release 200 times more energy than burning Hydrogen.

Wikipedia says this man is a fraud. He has raised and spent 60-80 million USD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklight_Power

Fringe Science is not always supported by facts. Cutting edge research is not always placed on a full page spread in the New York Times. Sometimes the companies like to keep their breakthroughs to themselves.

So an investigator must ask? What's his motivation for Fraud? Money? This Guys education is worth more than many people make in a lifetime, and a Phi Beta Kappa Harvard Educated Medical Doctor could likely make enough money to retire earlier than now on any beach he desired.

The investigators of fringe science should look at logical progressions in the technology over the years.

Okay.... So here it is. The "POSSIBLE" energy source he now claims to have invented.

His company BLACKLIGHT POWER has created a device they claim can run on the moisture in the air and a one(1) foot square box device can power 10 000 homes.

Let me repeat. A 1' Square Box that runs on moisture that can power 10 000 homes.

Blacklight Power filed for global Patent on this device earlier in the year and they have shown 3 progressing demonstrations the latest being the past monday.

The idea is to create thousands of Plasma Bursts per second using the moisture as fuel. Then the Photovoltaic Cells can harness the Energy. The Plasma Bursts are much brighter than the sun so use the PV cells more effectively than straight sunlight would.

Anyways.. This is Fringe Science so decide for yourself

Listen to Dr. Mills explain it here.

Specific events included: ignition of H2O-based solid fuel in air and argon atmospheres, calorimetric energy balance determination under argon, EUV spectroscopy of the hydrogen transitions to hydrinos, theory, technical, engineering, and commercialization presentations, and live demonstrations of BlackLight’s Third Generation SunCell with Photovoltaic Conversion of Light to Electricity. The main engineering aspects of the presentation were the complete system design and a unit that demonstrated those elements of the fast ignition and regeneration as well as optical distribution and photovoltaic conversion systems. A question and answer session was held with participation by three validators: a materials expert, an energetic materials and spectroscopy expert, and a defense company licensee.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxuoMzm2HNE#t=3912

(3 other videos after this for DEMO)

(WATCH DEMO ABOVE TO HEAR DR. RANDELL MILLS DISCUSS IT FOR OVER AN HOUR AT RECENT DEMONSTRATION.) Most of your questions will be answered there

So maybe its a Fraud, but if not it could be the best scientific discoveries of the century. Either way I expect this topic will be moved to trash by days end.

The speaker in above video is Doctor Randell Mills. What his motivation is for fraud I cannot imagine.

If this device is real you might see ion wind flying cars.

NOTE: If we believe them and demos THEY HAVE THIS DEVICE WORKING NOW. IT MAKES ELECTRICITY NOW. THEY ARE STILL IN PROCESS OF SPEEDING UP PLASMA BURSTS BUT THEY ARE EXPECTING QUICK PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT.

Many people claim he's fraudulent because it has taken 25 years. People supporting him 15 years ago are growing weary. Here it was in news 5 years ago as example.

(NOTE: 5 years ago they were attacking it from another angle. More like LENR. The Plasma into Solar Cells is new within this timeframe)

If this has peaked anybodies interest there is much information and discussion groups online.

(Note: I am not saying this is real. I am showing current news (This was last Monday July 21) on a topic that MAY affect us all. The concept is interesting if nothing else.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also... If that is of interest. LENR is also a fringe science and despite thousands of papers and many books on the subject it is not yet endorsed by Mainstream science. I have already started a discussion on that. Just look in the trash Can.

I would imagine the idea is as old as clothing itself. If you were a Neanderthal Mom and you frequently did not have to clean poop up from all over your cave because he was wearing pants, then you might make the baby wear pants all the time. Then use older worn pants underneath to protect the new furs and the diaper is born.

If you are really interested in this sort of thing I recommend the Fiction book series "Clan of the Cave Bear" and is a well researched fiction series regarding the dawn of man. It is one of the few series I've reread and plan to again. 7 books now. 4 when I first read it.

But supercomputer simulations using only the known sources of ultraviolet light produces a dimly lit Universe. The difference is a stunning 400 percent."

 

I think such a feat is as amazing as the topic. Imagine the data needed.

@ Kang,

EdEarl, on 17 Jul 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Could some of it be photons spontaneously created by dark energy?

 

Then what would be the effects on dark energy after creating photons? Can we find dark energy from the effects?

 

Before I comment. I wish to say that the preceding post #8 summed it up fairly well with the idea that more research is needed before people even understand what dark matter is and there are theories out there that might support a statement like this somewhat.

He was however asking a question so I will answer it.

Possibly

@ Prometheus,

Buddhists very often do believe in supernatural things, and certainly the Buddha also appeared to. But the Buddha taught that is not what is important in his teachings.

 

Yes. Fair enough. It is the "Supernatural" topics that are of interest in this thread though. No need for links. I was merely pointing out that several religions have what we might consider "supernatural" beliefs. Nobody has argued it, so I'm guessing the point was made.

@ HI,

how does one, 'gleen water,' from burning fat

 

That was my question. How do I know.

water is not produced in this process in the body but is used up instead in one of the reactions.

 

Cells do store and release water all the time. My question was would this aid in "burning" calories.

I imagine though that to damage a cell damage would be done to the entire body. I have not tried (nor would), but it was a thought I have considered (briefly) and thought I'd add it in with the corn thing.

nevermind.

@ Phi For All,

First, corn is a grain, not a vegetable.

 

That is interesting. I always thought it was a veggie.

It is also funny that corn is the state vegetable of New York.

I did look though and there appears to be a debate of whether it is a Grain, Fruit, or Vegetable, but it is indeed a grain.

I'll have some fun with that. Thanks.

Hi.

These are questions that have interested me for years but I've not looked into before.

I am not a Biologist or Nutritionist so this thinking is likely wrong and misguided.

Two questions.

A) Corn. - we all know that corn not chewed well can often pass through our system looking pretty much as it went in.

Would this not make this a great diet food? Would the undigested parts lower the calories you were supposed to get from the corn (They must test calories assuming it's all digestible)? Enough undigested corn and maybe it will even sandpaper down your digestive track.

Could a dieter fill their tummy a bit with mostly unchewed corn and expect to see a good portion of it in the future?

I know the above information must be wrong because no "CORN DIET" Books are flying off the shelves and even Internet scans do not reveal anything. It just seems logical to someone untrained in Nutritional Biology and Digestion (me).

B) Hydration vs Dehydration: Everyone knows the body is mostly water and works best when fully hydrated, and I have never seen a diet book or other suggesting not to drink water.

Here is my question.

If you were dehydrating, would your body not attempt to gleen some moisture by burning fat a little quicker?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure there are reasons why these are not on Dr Oz, but I am at least curious as to the why.

I tend to add corn to my food and soups these days. I know corn is good simply by being a vegetable, but are my insane reasoning's above valid in any way?

@ Ten Oz,

We have associated many PSI concepts are included in various religions. Certainly we cannot use religion to explain acceptance EVERY paranormal topic.

Of course religions have supernatural elements. Doesn't mean that all supernatural things are religious in nature.

 

No but we have shown many paranormal beliefs are contained in some religions. This should be reason enough to associate paranormal with religions.

It will not explain Spontaneous Human Combustion (if its real) or UFO's. These are paranormal topics. There is too wide a meaning of paranormal to fit every category into religion, but we have covered

Telepathy, Collective consciousness, remote viewing, fortune telling, astrology, teleportation, reincarnation, possessions, life after death, pendulums, magick, and more. Is that not enough to at least associate some religions (if not all) with paranormal attributes?

If you want it to encompass every single PSI topic ever thought of it won't happen. I know of no religion that accepts the notion of a Genie in a bottle for example. They also might not include Bigfoot, Lochness, Ogopogo, unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, gremlins, or why toast falls buttered side down.

@ Ten Oz,

I was addressing a question from SwansonT, where he said,

What religions are based on ESP or fortune-telling?

 

If at least several (there is more) major religions have supernatural acts such as Reincarnation, Karma, Remote Viewing, Out of Body experiences, ESP, Fortune Telling, Teleportation, etc. , then it would be natural to assume Paranormal topics like those can be associated with religion.

believing in ghosts alone isn't a religious act unless there is a belief structure behind. Simply believing you saw a ghost and having no held beliefs one way or another about how it was possible would make a person superstitious in my book.

 

I have used Wiccan, Buddhist, and Hindu religions as examples. These all have belief structures and millions of followers. Roughly a billion people are Hindu, and over 350 million Buddhists exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

These religions consist of well known and documented belief structures. I do not see how seeing a ghost can be a valid comparison.

"we usually associate" broadly acknowledges the generality of the question. There is not an absolute statement being made.

 

So give us your interpretation of what the OP is asking. To me it seems like demonstrating at least 3 religions so far that have paranormal activities at their core is answering the question.

How could you not associate paranormal activities with religion (see Title of thread) if one of those three religions was yours? Even Catholics and Christianity have Prayers and Miracles and Possessions according to them but they have already been ruled out for some reason on this thread.

The entire concept of a deity is paranormal according to mainstream science.

@ Swansont,

The Wiccans use magick would be a counterexample if there were lots of Wiccans about. Are there? Are they representative of the typical religious person?

 

You certainly infer in this statement that my religion does not have enough followers to be considered a typical religion.

I agree though, you did not say it was not a religion. You just say it is too small to be typical if I interpret the above statement correctly.

Are you enlightened yet? That is three religions two major ones, plus one that might have been major had the Catholics not had so many Crusades and Inquisitions, that profess supernatural beliefs - Barfbag

 

.

Maybe at some point, if you're not too winded from your rant, you could address what I actually wrote and not some straw-man version of it.

 

Your exact words were,

What religions are based on ESP or fortune-telling? Enlighten me.

 

(adding bold to "Enlighten me" to show you said it.)

Okay. So it was not meant to offend.

You clearly noted the Wiccan religion was not typical enough to warrant consideration in this thread so I brought in several more typical religions.

You also had said "enlighten me" if that was reference in second quote of your last post.

Youre indignation is noted, and I will apologize for misconstruing the concept of invalidating my religion by typical size, with denying it is a religion.

There.

Now can you address whether Buddhism or Hindu supernatural beliefs fit your notion of typical, and are you ("Enlighten me") enlightened now?

You said,

What religions are based on ESP or fortune-telling?

 

I have shown both Buddha and Hindu (and Wiccan) have these concepts at their core.

In conservation biology, there is a concept called "effective population size". This is the minimum number of individuals that will represent the genetic variability within a population. Fifty is a minimum commonly used by animal breeders. This gives about a 2-3% loss of heterozygosity per generation. Some have suggested that 500 indivduals is enough so that the the new mutation rate balances the loss of heterozygosity due to small population sizes (inbreeding depression).

Source:

Franklin (1980): 50-500 reproductive individuals
Lande (1995): 5000 reproductive individuals
Essentials of Conservation Biology, Richard B. Primack

 

(added bolds for emphasis)

So for two people to work EXTREME LUCK would be required not only in DNA, but if they had all boys (Cain/Abel) then there would be no girls to be mothers.

I'd research "conservation biology" for more on this topic because repopulating a species from small numbers is similar to your question in the OP.

I think they will never accept that religion does not require belief in God. It seems that when they say "religion" they actually mean Christianity and they just dismiss all the other belief systems as not real religions.

 

Apparently.. Wikipedia classifies it as a religion and it is my own religion. I found the "law of attraction" movement to have merits (in my opinion) and then discovered Wicca had the same beliefs but more advanced visualization/affirmation processes.

Okay so now according to SwansonT, Wicca does not qualify as a religion.

The Wiccans use magick would be a counterexample if there were lots of Wiccans about. Are there? Are they representative of the typical religious person?

 

Wicca accepts ALL religions, and their concept of god is that it (I could say he/she/universe/all that is) is all encompassing and a part of everything.

A "God knows every sparrow that falls in the forest, because god is every sparrow that falls" type thing.

I think Wicca is more of a true religion than Christianity/Catholics/Muslim.

The reason so much of the world is Catholic as opposed to Wicca is because The Catholics had centuries of murdering anyone who did not believe as them.

- First the Catholics acquired leadership of Rome which had previously taken over the vast Egyptian and Greek empires.

They did this through forgery. They forged a document from a sickly emperor to acquire Rome. See -"Forgery of Constantine".

- Once they held the Greatest Army in the world they began taking over Countries systematically. History does not consider them world conquerors like Napoleon or Alexander the Great, but they took as much land.

- They took over Germany and said to the King... Make your people catholic or die...

- They took over France Same thing...

Note: Have you ever seen a common army slogan "Kill them all and let god sort them out"

This common quote comes from an emissary from the Vatican. The town before them was mixed with Catholics and Christians (Cathars). The ENTIRE TOWN WORSHIPPED JESUS but that was not enough. They needed to be paying into the Catholic coffers.

The soldiers wanted to know how they would know the Catholics from the Christians, and were told roughly to Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. ("Kill them. For the Lord knows those that are His own."), and that is where the saying on the patch above came from.

Citing wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

In todays terms that would be like your local Catholic Church walking down the street and Murdering a United Church that was 1/4 Catholics in it. They purposefully killed their own.

When the Catholics took Jerusalem they killed Man, Woman, and Child. When the Muslims captured it a decade later they at least spared the lives of the Women and Children. (i'm not a Muslim lover either, just noting).

Even today the Headquarters of the Catholic church is its own country.

So my religion does not have its own country as a headquarters but it is still popular. Law of Attraction is also a religion although many do not think of it that way, but if anyone considers how it supposedly operates then they must consider more.

I think it is funny to see a Catholic who thinks Muslims are murderous when much larger amounts of spilled baby blood (there cannot be enough emphasis on the fact Women and Children were slain en masse by the Catholics) came from the Catholics.

Imagine it was your family being slaughtered by this "religion" (I consider it an army more than a valid religion myself). Would you be happy to see it enjoy the popularity it does today.

I think the concepts of it are equally ridiculous. Heaven,Hell, pearly gates, etc.

So I am of the position that the Wiccan Religion was mostly scorched from the Earth and if The Catholics had never acquired Rome through Forgery we might see a lot more Wiccans than we do.

@ Inow,

Buddhism is clearly a religion without a god and practically everyone here acknowledges and concedes that without hesitation.

 

Fine. Then it appears we have an example we can use then as my religion does not seem to make the cut.

Does Buddhism not promote the concept of reincarnation where our spirits are reborn time and again on this planet? Is not the idea of life after death or spirits supernatural?

WHAT CAN BE MORE SUPERNATURAL THAN BEING BORN TIME AND AGAIN INTO DIFFERENT BODIES?

What about Karma? That is a popular part of Buddhist belief. If there is no deity then how is that supposed to operate exactly without some sort of mass consciousness or telepathy interactions?

Just pondering those two well known concepts should be enough however I'll go on (I enjoy Religion, and I learn in process also).

That is just the tip of it though. They have much more detailed, documented, and ingrained beliefs about it.

Meditation is strongly ingrained in Buddhism culture and I am sure this is common knowledge although it is also practiced in Hindu and other religions. It is known to promote "A feeling of oneness with the universe.".

Yao Zhihua writes:^[13]

(Now for Zen/Tantric aspects of Buddism)

In their view, the Buddha is equipped with the following supernatural qualities: transcendence (lokottara), lack of defilements, all of his utterances preaching his teaching, expounding all his teachings in a single utterance, all of his sayings being true, his physical body being limitless, his power (prabhāva) being limitless, the length of his life being limitless, never tiring of enlightening sentient beings and awakening pure faith in them, having no sleep or dreams, no pause in answering a question, and always in meditation (samādhi).

 

[NOTE: Bolds added for emphasis above]

from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood

How do you really know something? You can read a thousand word essay on apples and know nothing, but bite into one and you know.

http://williamjames.com/Folklore/ASTRAL.htm

Allusions to astral projection are particularly prominent in the scripts of Tantric Buddhism, a subdivision of Mahayana Buddhism found in Tibet and parts of Mongolia. Such experiences are considered to be a mark of his devotion to the Buddha. Pure Land Buddhism in China is a tradition which not only admits to NDEs, but is philosophically grounded upon their reality and accessibility to all people.

The particular notion of astral projection can be traced back to Pythagoras' claim to hear the music of the heavens. The Pythagoreans assumed that the distances of the heavenly bodies from the earth somehow corresponded to musical intervals. By allowing one's consciousness, uplifted by philosophy, to rise through these astral spheres one ultimately might attain to union with the divine.

 

NOTE BELOW: The reference to deities in this religion. Similar to Hindu.

It's important to understand that these deities are not "believed in" as external spirits to be worshiped. Rather, they are archetypes representing the tantric practitioner's own deepest nature.

 

Yogi Ramacharaka: - It is possible for a person to project his astral body, or travel in his astral body, to any point within the limits of the earth's attraction, and the trained occultist may do so at will, under the proper conditions. Others may occasionally take such trips (without knowing just how they do it, and having afterwards, the remembrance of a particular and very vivid dream); in fact many of us do take such trips, when the physical body is wrapped in sleep, and one often gains much information in this way, upon subjects in which he is interested, by holding astral communication with others

 

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/D%20-%20Chinese%20Mahayana%20Buddhism/Authors/Hsing%20Yun/On%20Magic%20and%20the%20Supernatural/The%20Buddhist%20Perspective%20on%20Magic%20and%20Supernatural.htm

B. Magic through Meditation

Magical power can be obtained through meditation practices. Like the Arhats, during cultivation they can attain power through the four Dhyana states and eight mental concentration levels. They can understand the worldly phenomena and know the past and future lives.

 

Okay.

The whole concept of Reincarnation should be enough to Satisfy INOW. We do not yet know if SwansonT will accept Buddhism as a religion qualified for this discussion.

However...

I have mentioned similarities between Buddhism and Hindu (My second favorite religion). So this wikipedia article should be somewhat conclusive that they both accept supernatural magic/ESP/fortune telling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhis

(maybe read that wikipedia page in full, but I will provide some quotes.)

Siddhis^{[note 1]} are what practitioners believe to be spiritual, magical, paranormal, or supernatural powers acquired through sadhana (spiritual practices), such as meditation and yoga.^[1] People who have attained this state are formally known as siddhas.^[2]

 

This term (Siddhis) is used in Hindu and Buddhism.

In Tamil the word Siddhar/Chitthar refers to someone who has attained the Siddhic powers & knowledge.

 

Five siddhis of yoga and meditation

In the Bhagavata Purana, the five siddhis of yoga and meditation are:

1. tri-kāla-jñatvam: knowing the past, present and future
2. advandvam: tolerance of heat, cold and other dualities
3. para citta ādi abhijñatā: knowing the minds of others and so on
4. agni arka ambu viṣa ādīnām pratiṣṭambhaḥ: checking the influence of fire, sun, water, poison, and so on
5. aparājayah: remaining unconquered by others^[9]

 

 

1. tri-kāla-jñatvam: knowing the past, present and future . - This could mean they believe they can see the future. I think that fits as fortune telling, one of the requirements Swansont has said might ("enlighten me") enlighten him if found as a precept in a religion.
2. para citta ādi abhijñatā: knowing the minds of others and so on - This could mean ESP/telepathy the second precept SwansonT has asked for.

Lord Krishna describes the ten secondary siddhis as:

• anūrmi-mattvam: Being undisturbed by hunger, thirst, and other bodily appetites
• dūra-śravaṇa: Hearing things far away
• dūra-darśanam: Seeing things far away
• manaḥ-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation/astral projection)
• kāma-rūpam: Assuming any form desired
• para-kāya praveśanam: Entering the bodies of others
• sva-chanda mṛtyuh: Dying when one desires
• devānām saha krīḍā anudarśanam: Witnessing and participating in the pastimes of the gods
• yathā sańkalpa saḿsiddhiḥ: Perfect accomplishment of one's determination
• ājñā apratihatā gatiḥ: Orders or commands being unimpeded ^[10]

 

 

So "Lord Krishna" (Their version of Pope/deity) claims entering the body of others, assuming any form, teleporting, and remote viewing are possible. These are also PSI topics, and might be considered supernatural (by my definition anyways).

In Conclusion:

I think my last post on the Wiccan religion was enough to meet the requirements of this thread, but it was not considered common enough to warrant consideration.

Inow was kind enough to suggest Buddhism as a fine example so I have used that religion to show they had beliefs in meditation and mind over matter, telepathy, ESP, fortune telling, teleportation, remote viewing, and more.

I have shown similar beliefs in Hinduism.

So what reasons are these now unfit as religions for this thread?

@ Swanson T,

"Enlighten me" - Swansont from earlier post.

 

Are you enlightened yet? That is three religions two major ones, plus one that might have been major had the Catholics not had so many Crusades and Inquisitions, that profess supernatural beliefs.

@ Swansont,

Okay. I saw this post and replied to only this.

What religions are based on ESP or fortune-telling? Enlighten me.

 

Then you referred to an earlier post I probably skipped in which you qualified further aspects to it.

here...

I specifically said they reject the abilities outside of the connection to their deity.

 

I listed Catholic etc., because I did not realize the part about connection to deities, although I think others gave you good answers such as Acme. Astrology is fortune telling without deities accepted by various religions.

Okay. I'll bite...

One of the oldest religions worships Mother Earth and it is believed by many archeologists and accepted through history that the roots of pagan religions go back to the cave man days.

However...

In todays age it is known as Wicca. It is a religion, but some refer to it as witchcraft.

Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Wicca (English pronunciation: /ˈwɪkə/) is a modern pagan, witchcraft religion.

 

So it is a religion. In fact it is closer to my own beliefs than any 2000 year old bible from those catholics and christians can muster. It also has some similarities to Hindu (surprisingly).

Anyways. In Wicca you can practice magick without invoking any Deity. Yes I said magick.

From same Wikipedia article...

Wicca often involves the ritual practice of magic, though it is not always necessary.

 

I spell Magick with a K but that was adopted by many to avoid confusion with stage magic. But there it is in black and white.

A religion that involves magic without a Deity. I can assure you I am well read in most religions and can show aspects of ESP and fortune telling in this religion for sure. The Fortune Telling aspect normally involves something called a Pendulum that is asked questions and responds with Yes or No answers (I am not saying it is true. I am saying this is what they believe).

http://www.wicca-spirituality.com/pendulum.html

(you can see what I am referring to in the above article, but it is very common if you have further doubts about this)

Again.. I am not saying it works. I am saying this is a Religion that has Fortune Telling and ESP near its core.

So I have

A) shown it is a religion

B) shown that it involves Fortune Telling (Pendulum as just one way) with no plea to a deity. The practitioner does their own magick. There are other Fortune Telling aspects to the religion such as promoting dreams for guidance and more.

So what about ESP?

This is more prevalent than Pendulums in the Religion. Not only are thoughts sent and read, but healing and harmful thoughts are supposed to Heal/hurt the intended person(s).

(I am not saying it is real. I am saying this is part of the Wiccan religion.)

Here is a letter from a Priestess on telepathy (maybe she not a priestess. I want ID, lol).

http://sibyllineorder.org/wicca101/w1_gifts.htm

Here is a "Magick Spell" (Remember Wikipedia says they sometimes do magick)

"As it be thought in the mind of others
both familiar and strange
both sisters and brothers
may it be heard in mine own head
loud and clear as if it'd been said."

 

See if you can guess purpose of that spell without clicking the link.

http://www.wiccanspace.com/spells/814-telepathy.html

From

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_beli.htm

We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifesting through polarity – as masculine and feminine – and that this same Creative Power lies in all people and functions

 

This expresses well the notion that there lies a belief that Ordinary People have Powers to shape their reality, no need for deity.

From same page...

We recognize both outer worlds and inner, or psychological worlds sometimes known as the Spiritual World, the Collective Unconsciousness

 

Collective Unconscious. This is a Borg type thing where all of our minds are in psychic communication to subconsciously and consciously (in case of Wiccans) shape our reality.

Here is an official definition of collective Unconscious.

Carl Jung - “My thesis then, is as follows: in addition to our immediate consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we believe to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal unconscious as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective, universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all individuals. This collective unconscious does not develop individually but is inherited. It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only become conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic contents.”^[

 

^{That was written by Sigmund Freuds friend, Carl Jung.} He coined both the Term "Collective Unconscious" and "Synchronicity". Both of which are used commonly today.

@ Swansont still,

So we have shown that Wicca is a religion and it is much older than Christianity. Had the Catholics not burned every library and heretic they could find a lot more documentation would likely have been found.

 

"Sorcery and sanctity are the only realities,"- Nostradamus

 

Although Nostradamus lived long ago he practiced "fortune Telling using a Wiccan method (not yet mentioned here) called Scrying. I will not describe it, but there is plenty of reading material on this method.

It is indisputable that he came deeply under the old pagan (Wicca is based upon paganism) methods of divination.

NOTE: I have not said Wiccans can do what they claim, nor am I saying Nostradamus is real. I am only demonstrating that there is a widely accepted religion that believes in Magic, ESP, and fortune telling WITHOUT use of a deity.

I could find hundreds of supporting links on any aspects of this if it is to be argued. Please be specific what parts you do not accept (because I am expecting opposition if only for the sake of it).

Otherwise admit there are religions that work magic, telepathy, fortune telling, without need for a deity to be involved.

What religions are based on ESP or fortune-telling? Enlighten me

 

I would think most. Certainly Christian/Catholic/Hindu/Muslim to name a few major ones.

Prophets existed which "allegedly" gave guidance to the people supposedly from the words of god.

This is accepted in those religions as truth.

I believe there is a section of the bible that is supposed to predict ("fortune telling") Armageddon/ The end of the world.

Personally I dislike the Catholics because they are one of the most murderous religions known to have existed, but they still endorse fortune telling.