cladking

You might be forgetting that there are many similarities between reality and our perception of it and we aren't mere points but rather live and operate in the real world. This isn't about what's "better" but what exists. Human knowledge is simply too extensive and complex to model holistically. We must model it in bits and pieces.

Are you suggesting it's relevant but doesn't support my position? Logic isn't in words. It's in nature. It consists of bites like "Iff A then B" where A and B are defined in terms that apply to all things. These are the discrete bits of reality that might be mistaken for "laws". It is the way reality unfolds and makes reductionistic science appear to generate universal laws. Our science is experimental and the experiments in aggregate show this logic. Most of this logic probably has initial conditions or time as a component. I can't define logic since it would require centuries of study and involve omniscience. I'm merely trying to put "the nature of our existence" into words anyone can understand. That I might be wrong is irrelevant since everyone who has ever lived might be wrong and it's a rather all encompassing question. Perhaps rather than say everything is an issue of science I should have said "I believe that given sufficient time it might be seen the everything is within the purview of science". Numerous things are outside the scope of science now. Mountains and rivers certainly share many characteristics with living things and are intimately connected but they don't reproduce and are not conscious. You missed my point. I meant that the nature of our existence is for animals to have a four dimensional world derived from four dimensional thought (which they don't experience) and humans to have a one dimensional reality composed of their own beliefs and thoughts (which we do experience). Animals don't have a chain of thought but rather their entire brain operates within and as a part of reality. Due to their highly limited capacity resulting chiefly from the lack of generational learning they see very very little of reality and know it. We believe we see all of reality and we "know" this.

I would maintain that everything is an issue of science.

A bee's waggle dance is quite complex and reflects existing reality. A bee must know the position of the sun and the distance to a food source. It must be able to attract the attention of the other bees and each bee must attend to the nuances of the dance. It is entirely within the realm of reason to suggest other information about water sources and predators might be relayed as well. Then the bees must cooperate to gather the food and use it. The waggle dance is quite possibly just a tiny little part of what it means to be a bee and to do what they do. Whether this can all be hard wired as instinct or not is more a philosophical question than it is one that supports or denies my theory. It is philosophical largely because I am not maintaining that they "think" like we do. I suggest their brains, consciousness, and behavior are all one single thing based on the logic of reality itself. They do not experience "thought" but obviously they must have something in its place and this is consciousness. This consciousness allows them to react properly to the existence of threats and opportunities. It gives them a chance to survive and procreate. I am suggesting that the bee's waggle dance is digital, metaphysical, and representational and as such constitutes natural language which every species uses (most very limitedly) to thrive. Humans are different because our brains are wired for a different kind of language. We experience thought. This is largely perspective. If we had no math "science" would have little practical meaning and would still be in its infancy. Yes. Obviously there is generational learning in crows and most complex species. A cat teaches her kittens to hunt. But this knowledge being transferred is relatively simple and simple language can be used to transfer it. Much more complex knowledge is handed down generationally in humans and this knowledge includes not only the efforts of the giants of the past but also the means by which knowledge is gained. A cat or a crow has highly limited knowledge of any means to gain new knowledge beyond its ability to recognize patterns in nature. It isn't intelligence or the ability to think quickly and clearly that has created the modern world. It is complex language which we use to pass knowledge to each new generation that individuals might claw their way up onto the shoulders of giants. This IS the nature of our existence. There are literally thousands of experiments that have shown we see what we believe. I haven't read this so can't swear it's completely relevant; https://neuroscience.stanford.edu/news/reality-constructed-your-brain-here-s-what-means-and-why-it-matters It's not only experiments in the soft sciences that support my theory but all experiment to my knowledge. There isn't even a proper scientific definition of "consciousness", "reality", "logic", or most of the terms I'm attempting to define here. You can't experiment on what can't be defined so no theories apply to such things except the prevailing belief that the "laws of nature" define reality. Even if this belief proves someday to be correct, at this point in time we simply don't know all the laws of nature. I can't ask others to support their beliefs which is why the thread is on the philosophy forum. Right or wrong my theory is based on fact and experiment, thousands of them.

Most all of what I'm saying here is merely reinterpretation of existing knowledge and experiment. I am aware of no "extraordinary claims" that I've made in THIS thread. Every experiment shows people see what they believe and I am extrapolating from this. If bees don't think then how can they communicate? I would remind everyone that we don't know what 'thinking even is but rather use its existence as proof of our own; "I think therefore I am". From this perspective it is impossible to think about thought and learn anything. I have arrived at different very ordinary conclusions from a different perspective. People don't accept the means I used to achieve this different perspective and find it rather extraordinary which isn't too far wrong. But just as the type of lab equipment that is used is normally irrelevant to experiment the means I used to get to my perspective is irrelevant to a conversation about the nature of life and its meaning. People don't want to hear about epistemology and metaphysics and they most assuredly don't want to hear about metaphysics that is based on the exact same perspective used by bees. But these too constitute "experiment" and are within the scope of human knowledge.

What I meant was that for the main part every thought derives from the previous or new input. Additionally we tend to often be subject oriented. This varies individual to individual however. I defined "consciousness" several posts back. And before that I defined "thought". I am still using those definitions. Consciousness is life and thought is the comparison of input to beliefs. This works. Yes, but when I refer to abstractions I'm talking about the means we use to communicate and think. Abstractions aren't real but we treat them as if they were. They are symbols of complex ideas. The nature of our existence is to build models of what we believe and to communicate about these models in abstractions. Historically these models have always proven to be wrong or woefully incomplete. We have no means to know whether anyone's beliefs are any better today other than science and we know science changes one funeral at a time. We have no means of knowing what future scientists will think of our current models but it is "certain" they will have better ones. The various parts of our brain/ bodies are wired similarly to many other life forms. "Consciousness" is the means by which life survives. It tells a rabbit to avoid foxes and the bast means to escape. A key aspect is learning to make predictions which is derived logically from pattern recognition. If a rabbit sees a fox by the creek every day at sunrise it avoids being by the creek at sunrise. Consciousness seeks patterns to make useful prediction. This is not the nature of consciousness. This is the nature of thought. Other species apply all of their knowledge to all of their interactions with reality all the time they are awake. But our existence is largely a chain of thought. Animals succeed so well on so little knowledge because they exist in four dimensions where we essentially are in only one. We succeed because we can pass learning from generation to generation through language and gain knowledge through induction, deduction, and experiment. The nature of our existence is unlike things that are not alive and unlike all other living things. We are unique! And where each rabbit is essentially the same except for experience we are each different as defined by our beliefs.

We have both thought and consciousness but experience only thought. Other life has no thought but do have an individual consciousness which they do not really experience. In our terms you might say they think but aren't aware of it. Our abstractions are a great way to communicate complex ideas and use for inductive logic but they do not exist in reality. Obviously there is more going on in the human brain/ body than just chemical processes and thought and we are aware on some level of many of these. We still live and exist in our thoughts. We see the world from the perspective of our thoughts. We are still animals and still hooked up like other animals but unlike other life we have a "one track mind". All consciousness, even human consciousness, seeks patterns. Even without thinking a dog is still trying to understand its master. Where we model beliefs dogs model reality itself to the degree their limited knowledge and capacity allows. The brain/ body/ life of other consciousness resonates with reality. In reality humans experience thought so even a dog can pick up on this and possibly imitate it in small degree.

Reality is a collection of discrete logic operating in four dimensions with every event affecting every other event. We can make no sense of this by merely applying beliefs so we had no choice but to invent experimental science to look at it. But we can't look at the whole. We can only reduce bits and pieces of it to experiment so science is by nature reductionistic. Things that can't be reduced are invisible to us. This certainly includes things like consciousness and the nature of our existence. When we reduce reality we see some of the logic that underlies reality by means of experiment. But this logic is not a "rule" by which nature must operate. There are no rules, no laws, only logic. Math doesn't work because it's required any more than objects fall to the earth because they must. Math works because it's as logical as reality and things fall because it's part of the logic that holds reality together. We extrapolate and interpolate experiment as part of a paradigm but then we usually forget that all experiment applies to all things at all times similarly to the way all things affect all other things in reality at all times and across time. We have created models which are unique to each individual and incorporated them right into our beliefs. It is these beliefs that define the nature of human experience but not the nature of existence. Other consciousness have no beliefs. We are distinct from other life. It is unlikely any other life form "thinks" ie- is aware of its mental processes. Rather they engage small pieces of reality according to their nature, their experience, their knowledge, and their consciousness. Obviously this can be very highly limited in many cases. We experience thought rather than consciousness. It's entirely possible that other species or individuals might sometimes experience thinking. I think this would apply especially to dogs through imitation and porpoises through intelligence and the observation of humans. I certainly don't know but I tend to mostly doubt it. Brains develop in utero mathematically and logically. Their output is logical. Consciousness is defined by reality. Yes. It is the logic of nature and is incorporated into each consciousness. In our terms you might say it is axiomatic. Human brains don't work like a computer and even contain a few analog cells. This is evidenced by the existence of abstractions in our thinking and communication. There are no symbols or abstractions in a bee's waggle dance; it is strictly representational. This is most probably a reflection of the way they each think; no abstractions.

Math is math and all math is logical by nature. Reality is infinitely complex and we are always inventing increasingly complex math in attempts to learn about nature and to explain existing phenomena. I will try to keep evidence out of this but remember I believe that it is entirely consistent with all experiment. This is interpretation. "Consciousness" and thought are distinct. Only humans today think. It is the product of comparing all sensory input to beliefs and models. For all practical purposes "life" and "consciousness" are the same thing. All life and all consciousness are individual. Consciousness arises from the individual's "wiring" which is logical so consciousness is logical. Other than humans individuals act on experience/ knowledge and logic. Some things are axiomatic to consciousness and these include cause precedes effect, no two identical things exist, reality exists as it appears, and that reality is complete unto itself. Survival is wired into every individual and is the chief purpose of consciousness. Pattern recognition exists to explain and predict reality supporting survival. Consciousness is digital (binary) except in humans.

I'm not really suggesting that your beliefs can change reality. BUT you will perceive reality consistently with your beliefs and then your every action is consistent with your beliefs and perceptions. Your actions can most assuredly change reality. No "science" will ever be "overturned". However experiment is periodically reinterpreted from a new perspective often called a "paradigm". This occurs in fits and starts based on the specific individuals who are at the forefront of research. As this group evolves theory changes. Actually I believe I'm the only one with evidence. But this is a philosophy forum so evidence is off topic and nobody, I can assure you, is interested in such evidence. Suffice to say that every experiment ever performed agrees with this interpretation, or at the very least, no experiment counters it. It's simple enough. Math simply always corresponds directly to reality (2 apples is 1 more than 1 apple). This correspondence results from them both being based in logic. ...Like the double slit experiment? If you think it's off topic I will respond no further. Buit this is I believe the nature of our existence; the nature of life, the nature of reality and the nature of science and philosophy.

It is the simplest paradigm to explain every experiment. No. Not really. We see quantified logic we call "mathematics" agree with experimental results, but experiment is just snapshots of the logic we all seek and that is reality. We can't directly observe reality because we see our models and beliefs instead. Non-mystics rarely have mystical experiences. We are each different and each a product of beliefs so almost anything becomes possible. Even entire cultures going insane is possible. There is often a sort of truth or logic even in the most baseless beliefs and experienced phenomena. Truth and logic exist just as much as falsity and illogic exist everywhere.

Yes. There are no "laws of nature". There only seem to be because reductionistic science can only reveal one data point, one experiment, at a time. Only in humans do abstractions like "belief" even apply. All other life deals with everything through experience/ knowledge much of which derives from pattern recognition and previous experience. The rest comes from genetics which is another manifestation of logic/ reality. Yes. But it's far more true and far more relevant that your beliefs define how you experience reality. You are a product of your beliefs but reality is not. After we've adopted a set of beliefs it changes largely as the result of experiment, experience, or critical thought. Most of our beliefs are with us for a lifetime. Your perceptions are wholly dependent on your beliefs. We filter everything through our beliefs. We don't normally notice such things because our beliefs and reality tend to be very similar at least to the degree our beliefs can be tested. We are still a product of our time and place. Everything that can't be tested we tend to assume is like our beliefs. Indeed. ...at least until there is a dress rehearsal.

Reality has little effect on beliefs and beliefs have no effect on reality except through the actions they induce. Yes, of course. But no education can't make a person correct about anything. Critical thinking might. Experiment is a sort of set of guideposts to keep us on a road but it can never be certain it is the right road.

"We are an expression of whatever beliefs we choose to accept. " I mean it quite literally. Life is consciousness and consciousness has the exact same logic that underlies reality that we perceive as the "laws of nature". In part consciousness is pattern recognition and in humans this manifests as explanations of our perceptions based on beliefs and models. These models often derive from paradigms which are, in effect, more beliefs; beliefs about the proper interpretation of experiment. Each human chooses what to believe and this begins with trying to imitate and please our caregivers/ parents. As we learn we each choose what beliefs to incorporate. We are each a construct of what we choose to believe. Obviously nothing is static and these beliefs evolve over a lifetime and the change will ideally be driven by logic as we perceive it and the logic of reality as expressed by experiment. At every point of our lives our actions and perceptions are driven by our beliefs. Typically our beliefs are reinforced by our perceptions and by the outcomes of actions driven by those same perceptions. There is no breaking out of this pattern but by recognizing it we can influence it.

We are an expression of whatever beliefs we choose to accept.