Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

please help me: how can this cycle work ?


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#21 Bender

Bender

    Molecule

  • Senior Members
  • 720 posts

Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:38 PM

A magnets field doesn't get depleted by use (under normal circumstances), much like how a gravitational field doesn't get depleted.

 

A bit of potential magnetic energy would be converted to kinetic energy and gravitational potential energy, and then those three energy types individually would go up and down, while their sum monotonically decreases as friction converts them into heat.


  • 1

#22 DrP

DrP

    Molecule

  • Senior Members
  • 1,959 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:48 PM

Pretty sure the nuclei that are lined up get knocked about and the magnet will loose it's strength slowly with time as it is being used to pull up the ball.

 

That's what they told us at school anyway...  but that was over 20 years ago and things may have changed since then - I have been wrong before by quoting what I was taught at school.


Edited by DrP, 16 May 2017 - 02:49 PM.

  • 1

"Tonight I am going to party like it's on sale for $19.99"! - Apu Nahasapeemapetilon


#23 Bender

Bender

    Molecule

  • Senior Members
  • 720 posts

Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:43 PM

Magnets can slowly degrade over time, but this takes many years and is not really related to how often it pulled on a ball. In fact, while it is pulling on a steel object (or another magnet), the degradation happens slower. More on e.g. this link.

 

I remember from school that they told us always to store magnets with a piece of steel attached to close the magnetic field lines, and there is certainly some value in that, since it keeps the field aligned rather than it attempting to turn back on itself. It is also in a lower, and consequently more stable, energy state.


  • 1

#24 KipIngram

KipIngram

    Atom

  • Senior Members
  • 372 posts
  • LocationHouston, Texas

Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:48 PM

I think they call those "keepers."


  • 1

#25 Bender

Bender

    Molecule

  • Senior Members
  • 720 posts

Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:59 PM

You are right. I've learned something today :).


  • 1

#26 ali_baba

ali_baba

    Lepton

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:20 AM

other idea

This Perpetual Motion Machine May Not Be Perpetual, But It's Awesome Anyway      search on web

 

Untdfghdfitled.png


Edited by ali_baba, 17 May 2017 - 04:21 AM.

  • 0

#27 KipIngram

KipIngram

    Atom

  • Senior Members
  • 372 posts
  • LocationHouston, Texas

Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:12 PM

Yes, I saw that one too when I went off and poked around in response to this thread.  At least in the place I saw it there was some... "lively" conversation.  Pretty astounding how vehemently people will argue even when they don't have any knowledge in the area.  I think there's something in human nature that wants to think scientists are either 1) don't really know what they're doing or 2) are trying to hide something from everyone.

 

I watched the video of the one you just posted (at least I think it's the same one) and it "worked" so well that I couldn't believe the people who made it had made an honest oversight of some kind.  I think it was a full-on fraudulent design.  Could be wrong, I guess, but that was my take-away.


  • 1

#28 studiot

studiot

    Genius

  • Senior Members
  • 6,637 posts
  • LocationSomerset, England

Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:06 PM

please help me: how can this wheel work ? or is Trick ?

link removed per rules

very thank's
BR

 

What I am not sure about is are you asking our opinion because you have seen this elsewhere (as have several members here)

 

or are you trying to sell it to us?

 

 

Taking the best interpretation means I see no call for negative points. So I am adding +1 to what seems to be your latest attempt to discussion the subject reasonably and comply with the rules.

 

However the explanations offered are weak and incomplete.

Here is another omission.

 

 

  • Rolling friction losses ( Rrf ) of the ball on the inner track of the wheel and resulting from local deformation of the raceway under the weight of the ball,
  • Power losses due to sliding of the contact surfaces of the ball and raceway (ω' is greater than ω),
  • Loss of two ball bearings installed on the axis of the wheel.

 

The metal wheel is a conductor moving in a magnetic field, cutting lines of flux.

This motion will generate Faraday eddy currents which will dissipate energy.

So the wheel will stop in time from this cause alone.

 

As a matter of interest many machines, especially rotating ones, become  a bit magnetised after working for a period of time.


  • 1

#29 ali_baba

ali_baba

    Lepton

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:35 PM

 

What I am not sure about is are you asking our opinion because you have seen this elsewhere (as have several members here)

 

or are you trying to sell it to us?

 

 

Taking the best interpretation means I see no call for negative points. So I am adding +1 to what seems to be your latest attempt to discussion the subject reasonably and comply with the rules.

 

However the explanations offered are weak and incomplete.

Here is another omission.

 

 

The metal wheel is a conductor moving in a magnetic field, cutting lines of flux.

This motion will generate Faraday eddy currents which will dissipate energy.

So the wheel will stop in time from this cause alone.

 

As a matter of interest many machines, especially rotating ones, become  a bit magnetised after working for a period of time.

 

no . i am just an student . thank you dear friend

 

 

this can not work ? is Trick ?

 

Untdfghdfitled.png


Edited by ali_baba, 17 May 2017 - 09:07 PM.

  • 0

#30 studiot

studiot

    Genius

  • Senior Members
  • 6,637 posts
  • LocationSomerset, England

Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:56 PM

So tell us your thoughts about the subject.

 

It is more than difficult to have a discussion with a video.

 

So more text and less video please.


  • 1

#31 KipIngram

KipIngram

    Atom

  • Senior Members
  • 372 posts
  • LocationHouston, Texas

Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:16 PM

I think there's a trick in that one, yes.  The video shows it accelerating over multiple rotations.  That's more "goodie" than you can get by starting at a preferential angle.


  • 1

#32 KipIngram

KipIngram

    Atom

  • Senior Members
  • 372 posts
  • LocationHouston, Texas

Posted 18 May 2017 - 10:23 PM

This post got me to noodling around online for similar type things.  One thing I noticed in the attached conversation is that many, many people seem to have the idea that anything that moves "forever" represents the forbidden perpetual motion machine.  They'll note how it "must be possible, since the planets keep going forever."  Very few of them seem to get that what's forbidden is perpetual energy output with no source, not simply "motion."


  • 3

#33 studiot

studiot

    Genius

  • Senior Members
  • 6,637 posts
  • LocationSomerset, England

Posted 18 May 2017 - 10:47 PM

This post got me to noodling around online for similar type things.  One thing I noticed in the attached conversation is that many, many people seem to have the idea that anything that moves "forever" represents the forbidden perpetual motion machine.  They'll note how it "must be possible, since the planets keep going forever."  Very few of them seem to get that what's forbidden is perpetual energy output with no source, not simply "motion."

 

Yes there is a difference between perpetual motion, which is required by Newton's First Law, and a perpetual motion machine. +1 (PMM)

 

Also there are types of perpetual motion machine.

 

Your description refers to PMM of the first kind which is forbidden by the First Law of Thermodynamics or conservation of energy as you say.

 

There is another, trickier, type of PMM called a PMM of the second kind, which is forbidden by

yup you guessed it the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Probably the most relevant enunciation here is that due to Clausius.

 

It is impossible to transfer heat from a colder body to a warmer one without net changes in other bodies.

 

This forbids what amounts to a double first law machine being used as a PMM (that's the tricky bit)


Edited by studiot, 18 May 2017 - 10:49 PM.

  • 1

#34 KipIngram

KipIngram

    Atom

  • Senior Members
  • 372 posts
  • LocationHouston, Texas

Posted 18 May 2017 - 11:46 PM

I just found this same video here:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=m8-Kek8Halc

 

A little way down into the comments there's one by user asm0deus who quotes as follows from the website that posted the video (http://www.veproject1.org/):

 

From the website: "My Perpetual Motion Machines models are of motorized versions that were built to illustrate how they were supposed to work in the minds of Inventors. Never mind what educational level we are at, we all miss something that goes beyond the usual scientific explanations. Fundamental Science, Physics Laws and boring Laws of Thermodynamics bring the ‘flight’ of Inventors’ ideas to land. Growing Technology … We live in an age of consumption. But many of us are still dreaming and believe that the era of creativity has not gone. My PMM models are built for them. I’d like to inspire these people by demonstrating Unworkable Perpetual Motion Machines that were designed centuries ago.""

 

The quote is at the bottom of this page: http://www.veproject...rpetual-motion/.  So it looks like the machine in the video is explicitly acknowledged as being motorized.  Mystery solved.


  • 2

#35 imatfaal

imatfaal

    lazy do-nothing mudslinger

  • Moderators
  • 7,586 posts
  • LocationSt James's Park

Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:23 AM

Visual Education Project has posted here - and their aim is the creation of beautiful machines with interesting histories and no claims of perpetual motion.  Some of the mechanisms built are quite amazing works of craft


  • 1

A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.

- Alexander Pope

 

feel free to click the green arrow  ---->

 


#36 KipIngram

KipIngram

    Atom

  • Senior Members
  • 372 posts
  • LocationHouston, Texas

Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:03 PM

Yes, this one was really really pretty.  Very sleek looking.  And they made what you said very clear on the website.  But then the video got into independent circulation without the disclaimer.  :-(


  • 1

#37 ali_baba

ali_baba

    Lepton

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 20 May 2017 - 02:54 AM

with Best Regards and Thanks from ScienceForums.net and It's members

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

End of Post


  • 1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users