budullewraagh Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 what's the best way to oxidize fluorine? permanganates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarygun Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Sorry, I don't know. Instead, I have a question. I heard that hydrofluoric acid is more dangerous than hydrochloric acid, but aren't the ionization of HF is less than HCl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulkit Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 I heard that hydrofluoric acid is more dangerous than hydrochloric acid, but aren't the ionization of HF is less than HCl? There is no easy way to store HF, it reacts with virtually everything. It can even dissolve glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulkit Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 what's the best way to oxidize fluorine? permanganates? I don't think permangnates are any good for the purpose, you need something much stronger. Electrolytic methods might work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 I don't think permangnates are any good for the purpose, you need something much stronger. that's depressing. i can make permanganic acid easily and permanganates are the strongest oxidizing agents one can obtain. hydrofluoric acid is more dangerous especially because of its fluorine ions. important fact for all chemists to know: anything involving fluorine is scary like crazy. even fluoride salts. the - ion has the disturbing ability to steal the cation's electron and run off making coordinate covalent bonds (ex HF:SbF5 where the F from HF takes the H's electron and migrates towards the SbF5 and makes a coordinate covalent bond making SbF6-). any oxidized fluorine will serve as the oxidizing agent from hell. i could imagine that FMnO7 is the sign of the apocalypse. anyway, in the body, fluorine attacks anything involving alkali and alkaline earth metals. your heart stops. and thus you die. also, when HF attacks glass, it produces SiF4 and H2O. funny how that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfSciGuy Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Oxidation of Fluorine? Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 har har. still trying to figure it out using a nonelectrochem process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfSciGuy Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Presumably you want to create F+? The best thing to do maybe to bombard fluorine gas with fast electrons or even protons to see if you can extract the electrons (i.e. ionise), but Fluorine isn't going to give up easily, you might be talking about linac speeds!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfSciGuy Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 As far as I am aware Fluorine is the most electron negative element in the periodic table, you ain't gonna find any chemical that will give you F+ i don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 F+ exists tho. think of it; FNO3 is a rocket fuel and an insane oxidizer. FMnO4 exists. there is always a way; i have a chart of ionization energies that shows what how much energy is required to take electrons off of 1/10 of a mole of EVERY atom. for each it shows to +10 charges. yes, folks, that means neon lost all its electrons. you see? it's possible. there are some insane oxidizers that could probably do it, but i cant think of any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulkit Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 What immediately comes to my mind is OF- when I think of flourine in a +1 oxidation state. I think its the only oxy flouride that you can prepare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfSciGuy Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 F+ exists tho. think of it; FNO3 is a rocket fuel and an insane oxidizer. FMnO4 exists. there is always a way; i have a chart of ionization energies that shows what how much energy is required to take electrons off of 1/10 of a mole of EVERY atom. for each it shows to +10 charges. yes, folks, that means neon lost all its electrons. you see? it's possible. there are some insane oxidizers that could probably do it, but i cant think of any. What immediately comes to my mind is OF- when I think of flourine in a +1 oxidation state.I think its the only oxy flouride that you can prepare. Formally fluorine can never be in a +1 oxidation state, it must be considered to have -1 oxidation at all times. Of course this is not a true reflection of the chemical nature of any of the molecules you have described, however you can be sure that they do not contain F+ as a discreet entity (e.g. OF- is not O2- F+ and FNO3 is not F+ NO3-, the bonding between the atoms in these molecules is not ionic). It is likely that the Fluorine is going to pull electrons towards it in all these compounds as it is the most electronegative element in all of them. Ionisation potentials are experimentally determined using ionisation techniques such as bombarding by fast electrons/protons, not by chemical oxidation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 Formally fluorine can never be in a +1 oxidation state, it must be considered to have -1 oxidation at all times. it can be +7. surely you don't find that to be -7... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulkit Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 it can be +7. surely you don't find that to be -7... Amongst all halogens only Iodine can achieve +7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 i can't agree with that. ever heard of perchlorates? perbromates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulkit Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 I apologise. But I should have said that I is the only one with a slightly stable +7 state. Perbromates are prepared from electrolytic methods. Perbromates and perchlorates are known only in solution. [MATH]HClO_4[/MATH] is a super oxidising agent if you are ever able to produce it, its not stable. But flourine definately does not go into +7 (If there is any justice in this world ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 that's because it's HClO4. perchlorates tend to be more stable than chlorates. LiClO4 is quite stable actually. But flourine definately does not go into +7 (If there is any justice in this world ) actually, i'll have to prove you wrong here with my handy elements book. Ionization energies/kJ mol^-1 F -> F+ 1681 F+ -> F+2 3374 F+2 -> F+3 6050 F+3 -> F+4 8408 F+4 -> F+5 11023 F+5 -> F+6 15164 F+6 -> F+7 17867 F+7 -> F+8 92036 F+8 -> F+9 106432 the book has ionization energies for everything to get to +10. yes, that means they show how much energy it takes to get neon to become a +10 ion and thus devoid of electrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulkit Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 This data is nothing to go by. a)It is possible to derive all this theoretically/numerically as well. b)If it were experimental data, it'd surely not involve stable or slightly unstable compounds and probably just some transient species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 oh of course these ions arent all stable. however, there are oxidized fluorine ions that exist. permanganate and nitrate anions for example are more active nonmetals than fluorine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarygun Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 The numerical informational stuff from bud's brain is very crazy!!!!! I worship you very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfSciGuy Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 that's because it's HClO4. perchlorates tend to be more stable than chlorates. LiClO4 is quite stable actually. actually' date=' i'll have to prove you wrong here with my handy elements book. Ionization energies/kJ mol^-1 F -> F+ 1681 F+ -> F+2 3374 F+2 -> F+3 6050 F+3 -> F+4 8408 F+4 -> F+5 11023 F+5 -> F+6 15164 F+6 -> F+7 17867 F+7 -> F+8 92036 F+8 -> F+9 106432 the book has ionization energies for everything to get to +10. yes, that means they show how much energy it takes to get neon to become a +10 ion and thus devoid of electrons.[/quote'] The data is probably derived theoretically, if not it is performed by ionisation using fast electrons/protons (presuming the half-life of these ions is of significant length to be observed) and not by chemical oxidation. It is impossible to create F+ or higher by chemical oxidation. By convention (and if you don't believe me please go to the IUPAC (international union of pure and applied chemistry) or the IUPAP (same but for physics) websites) flourine in chemicals compounds has an oxidation state of -1 at all times and without exception. Of course (As I mentioned before) this is not a true reflection of the state of the atoms in the molecule (molecule such as OF- don't really fit into formal oxidation state theory), however, fluorine, being the most electronegative element in the periodic table, is not going to yield it's electrons to another element (F is even more oxidising the ozone!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfSciGuy Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 however' date=' there are oxidized fluorine ions that exist. [/quote'] Where? permanganate and nitrate anions for example are more active nonmetals than fluorine. F2 maybe, but not the atomic fluorine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted August 21, 2004 Author Share Posted August 21, 2004 The numerical informational stuff from bud's brain is very crazy!!!!!I worship you very much gee, thanks Where? FMnO4, FO-, FNO3, etc. flourine in chemicals compounds has an oxidation state of -1 at all times and without exception. ok then, if they say it. apparently the NO3- group loses its electron to the fluorine. that's some pretty crazy stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarygun Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Why do the shared electrons must be pairs ? A pair, two pairs,.... O - O - O for ozone is wrong , why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulkit Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Why do the shared electrons must be pairs ? A pair, two pairs,.... O - O - O for ozone is wrong , why? Thats not true in general. There are some oxides of nitrogen in which three electrons are shared. And then you have orgaincs where a whole bunch of electrons may be delocalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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