Theoretical Burn Injury

[Green Xenon]

Hi:

 

Please forgive my multi-post.

 

The following is a hypothetical thermal burn injury

 

Here are some acronyms

 

STSN = Somatic Tactile Sensory Neuron

 

STSNEPDRDT = Somatic Tactile Sensory Neuron supplying Epidermal, Papillary-Dermal, and Reticular-Dermal Tissues

 

Tactile = Pertaining only to sense of touch [including temperature, pressure, pain, etc.]. *Not* including any visual, auditory, gustatory, olfactory perceptions or any sensations associated with the sense of balance.

 

Let's say a mysterious entity decides to channel a wave of heat towards all my STSNEPDRDTs without damaging those papillary-dermal/reticular-dermal/epidermal tissues to any extent.

 

My epidermal, papillary-dermal, and reticular-dermal tissues remain completely healthy and un-injured. The sensory receptors that are *not* nerves also remain completely unscathed.

 

Anything *other* than my STSNEPDRDTs remain totally un-injured by the mystical heat.

 

Hair, sebum-glands, sweat glands, blood-vessels, lymph-nodes and other non-STSNEPDRDT-entities remain completely un-injured.

 

Things below the reticular dermis [e.g. adipose tissue, muscles, bones, etc.] are also unaffected. Motor and visceral nerves are also un-injured.

 

Also, STSNs supplying any tissues that are not papillary-dermal/reticular dermal/epidermal [e.g. hair root nerves] are completely un-injured.

 

The mystical entity instantly raises the temperature of my STSNEPDRDTs all the way up to 76 Celsius [without letting the heat spread to other tissues or other parts of my body] for just long enough to completely thermally-denature all the proteins, genetic materials, and other heat-sensitive substances in the STSNEPDRDTs. The mystical power then drops the STSNEPDRDTs’ temperature back to 98.6 Fahrenheit [normal human body temperature].

 

Here are my questions.

 

What symptoms will I experience? Will I survive? Will the nerve damage cause me to experience neurogenic shock? Will the burning pain knock me unconscious?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Green Xenon

[GDG]

Hmmm, this sounds extremely speculative, so I will answer in kind (i.e., without reference to any published research -- I extremely doubt there is any).

 

If this targeted torture only stimulated the receptors (I'll use that term instead of the acronym), I'd say that you'd experience a wave of excruciating burning sensations, that would subside when the stimulation passed. Whether you retained consciousness or not would depend upon your tolerance for pain.

 

However, you've specified that the receptors are in fact destroyed (proteins coagulated: I'd say that your intent was that the receptors be non-functional). In that case, all input from those receptors would be cut off. Hard to say exactly what you would experience. Oliver Sachs has reported patients in which the sensory nerves have been severed in a limb, where the result is that the patient comes to believe (unshakably) that the limb does not belong to them. People fall out of bed trying to throw their own leg (which they believe belongs to someone else) out. The patient may consciously understand that it is completely impossible for someone else's leg to be attached to them, but other parts of the brain provide input that must be reconciled. Just as in cases of hemispheric neglect, the brain confabulates. By analogy, then, I speculate that having lost all sensation in your skin, you would feel that you were wrapped in a shroud, or in someone else's skin. Possibly this would be extremely intense, psychologically, and you would be prone to tearing at your skin, trying to "free" yourself, with no possibility of relief.

 

I suggest you not try it

[Green Xenon]

Hmmm, this sounds extremely speculative, so I will answer in kind (i.e., without reference to any published research -- I extremely doubt there is any).

 

If this targeted torture only stimulated the receptors (I'll use that term instead of the acronym), I'd say that you'd experience a wave of excruciating burning sensations, that would subside when the stimulation passed. Whether you retained consciousness or not would depend upon your tolerance for pain.

 

However, you've specified that the receptors are in fact destroyed (proteins coagulated: I'd say that your intent was that the receptors be non-functional). In that case, all input from those receptors would be cut off. Hard to say exactly what you would experience. Oliver Sachs has reported patients in which the sensory nerves have been severed in a limb, where the result is that the patient comes to believe (unshakably) that the limb does not belong to them. People fall out of bed trying to throw their own leg (which they believe belongs to someone else) out. The patient may consciously understand that it is completely impossible for someone else's leg to be attached to them, but other parts of the brain provide input that must be reconciled. Just as in cases of hemispheric neglect, the brain confabulates. By analogy, then, I speculate that having lost all sensation in your skin, you would feel that you were wrapped in a shroud, or in someone else's skin. Possibly this would be extremely intense, psychologically, and you would be prone to tearing at your skin, trying to "free" yourself, with no possibility of relief.

 

I suggest you not try it

 

Obviously the pain would stop when the STSNEPDRDTs are completely damaged.

 

However, would the nerve damage [even if painless] cause neurogenic shock?

 

I ask because I've read about victims of pyroclastic lava flows dying from neurogenic shock.

 

Here: http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:vz7ZhIHuQrcJ:www.montserratreporter.org/news0199-3.htm+%22neurogenic+shock%22&gl=us&strip=1 it states: "The five jurors found that all 19 died shortly after 1 p.m. on that day from "neurogenic shock resulting from total body burns" suffered "in the sudden surge/eruption of pyroclastic flow from which (they) could not escape."

 

How do total body burns cause neurogenic shock?

 

Would the same happen in my theoretical burn injury?

 

Also, about the pain-induced unconsciousness, I read from this website http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:ziuTpWWP9_oJ:www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm+%22pain+impulses%22+site:www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1 :

 

"It is speculated that various organs of the body can send pain impulses to the brain stem indicating a severe or overwhelming bodily injury. The reticular activating system responds by producing a functional "shut down", which results in loss of consciousness within a second or two."

 

Would this happen in my hypothetical burn?

 

As for the psychological effects [feeling as if in someone else's skin], I think they would be mild because the STSNs in my skin that are not STSNEPDRDTs will not be injured. Hence, I will still have sensation in my skin's hair-roots, sweat-glands, blood-vessels, lymph-nodes, etc.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Green Xenon

[GDG]

Obviously the pain would stop when the STSNEPDRDTs are completely damaged.

 

However, would the nerve damage [even if painless] cause neurogenic shock?

 

I ask because I've read about victims of pyroclastic lava flows dying from neurogenic shock.

 

Here: http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:vz7ZhIHuQrcJ:www.montserratreporter.org/news0199-3.htm+%22neurogenic+shock%22&gl=us&strip=1 it states: "The five jurors found that all 19 died shortly after 1 p.m. on that day from "neurogenic shock resulting from total body burns" suffered "in the sudden surge/eruption of pyroclastic flow from which (they) could not escape."

 

How do total body burns cause neurogenic shock?

 

Would the same happen in my theoretical burn injury?

 

Also, about the pain-induced unconsciousness, I read from this website http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:ziuTpWWP9_oJ:www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm+%22pain+impulses%22+site:www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1 :

 

"It is speculated that various organs of the body can send pain impulses to the brain stem indicating a severe or overwhelming bodily injury. The reticular activating system responds by producing a functional "shut down", which results in loss of consciousness within a second or two."

 

Would this happen in my hypothetical burn?

 

As for the psychological effects [feeling as if in someone else's skin], I think they would be mild because the STSNs in my skin that are not STSNEPDRDTs will not be injured. Hence, I will still have sensation in my skin's hair-roots, sweat-glands, blood-vessels, lymph-nodes, etc.

 

Hard to say, because pain is still not completely understood. For example, you may feel pain in a phantom limb (e.g., you may feel pain in your right hand, even after your right arm has been amputated at the elbow), despite the complete absence of pain receptors in that limb. Destruction of the pain receptors does not guarantee elimination of pain.

 

According to Wikipedia, neurogenic shock is caused when autonomic motor control over blood vessels is interrupted. You've defined your affected set of neurons as sensory, so it is not clear whether neurogenic shock would result or not. In the absence of sensory input, we don't know whether the brain would respond by increasing or decreasing blood pressure. Keep in mind that "shock" in the medical sense does not mean "startling", but instead refers to a failure of the circulatory system, typically due to a large loss of blood or a large decrease in blood pressure (e.g., due to excessive vasodilation). Neurogenic shock is caused by the latter -- in the absence of stimulation from the autonomic nervous system, blood vessels may relax, resulting in lowered blood pressure. Thus, neurogenic shock does not depend upon pain.

 

As for the coroner's jury finding, I cannot tell from the article cited whether the jurors have any medical training. Most likely they are not medical experts, and thus I wouldn't put too much weight on their decision, which seems inconsistent with the definition and typical etiology of neurogenic shock (at least as defined by Wikipedia).

 

As for the subjective effects of this torture, I think a lot would depend upon how quickly the receptors were disabled. It could be that the victim would not feel anything other than a sudden and disconcerting numbness. Alternatively, you might feel that you were being roasted alive: when the receptors gave out, there would be no counteracting signal that temperature had reduced, and you may or may not permanently feel that you were roasting. Whether this would cause loss of consciousness or not is pretty speculative.

[Green Xenon]

Hard to say, because pain is still not completely understood. For example, you may feel pain in a phantom limb (e.g., you may feel pain in your right hand, even after your right arm has been amputated at the elbow), despite the complete absence of pain receptors in that limb. Destruction of the pain receptors does not guarantee elimination of pain.

 

According to Wikipedia, neurogenic shock is caused when autonomic motor control over blood vessels is interrupted. You've defined your affected set of neurons as sensory, so it is not clear whether neurogenic shock would result or not. In the absence of sensory input, we don't know whether the brain would respond by increasing or decreasing blood pressure. Keep in mind that "shock" in the medical sense does not mean "startling", but instead refers to a failure of the circulatory system, typically due to a large loss of blood or a large decrease in blood pressure (e.g., due to excessive vasodilation). Neurogenic shock is caused by the latter -- in the absence of stimulation from the autonomic nervous system, blood vessels may relax, resulting in lowered blood pressure. Thus, neurogenic shock does not depend upon pain.

 

As for the coroner's jury finding, I cannot tell from the article cited whether the jurors have any medical training. Most likely they are not medical experts, and thus I wouldn't put too much weight on their decision, which seems inconsistent with the definition and typical etiology of neurogenic shock (at least as defined by Wikipedia).

 

As for the subjective effects of this torture, I think a lot would depend upon how quickly the receptors were disabled. It could be that the victim would not feel anything other than a sudden and disconcerting numbness. Alternatively, you might feel that you were being roasted alive: when the receptors gave out, there would be no counteracting signal that temperature had reduced, and you may or may not permanently feel that you were roasting. Whether this would cause loss of consciousness or not is pretty speculative.

 

Thanks.

 

Would you say the statement about pain affecting the reticular activating system and causing a "shut down" is at all accurate?

 

Quote from http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:ziuTpWWP9_oJ:www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm+%22pain+impulses%22+site:www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1 :

 

"It is speculated that various organs of the body can send pain impulses to the brain stem indicating a severe or overwhelming bodily injury. The reticular activating system responds by producing a functional "shut down", which results in loss of consciousness within a second or two."

 

The above statement suggests that excruciating pain has a direct affect on the parts of the brain dealing with consciousness -- leading to a coma.