Thorium oxidation through an oxidated metal

[sungmintd8]

Would it be posible to create an energy source from thorium, using the properties of thermite (iron oxide and aluminum), only a transfer to thorium? I'm not going to test this, I was just peering at a table of elements. What would be the effects, except for the radiation emitted off of this?

[jdurg]

Thermit reactions can be used on ANY metal oxide and a reactive pure metal. In each case, the more reactive metal 'rips' the oxygen off of the less reactive metal oxide resulting in the formation of the liquid metal and aluminum oxide. The problem is that the amount of heat generated is so high that it can actually cause some of the metals to boil. If this happens, the resulting liquid metal will explode all over the place and create a lot of damage. The whole reason why thermit reactions AREN'T used is due to the inability to control them and their 'randomness'. It takes a good deal of energy to get the reaction going, and once it has started going there's no way for you to control it. Those aren't very good properties for something that you want to use to generate energy.

 

In addition, if you perform a thermit reaction on a radioactive metal oxide, you run the risk of forming the pure radioactive metal in sufficient quantities to start a nuclear chain reaction. You don't want to be creating a large mass of a liquid, fissile radioactive metal. That would result in a very nasty situation developing.

[sungmintd8]

Would it be controllable under low amounts (around a 1/4 ratio of thorium to iron oxide or such, or even a 1/10 ratio)? I've been reading up, and this looks like another untapped resource.

[jdurg]

Nope. That's like asking if you can make use of detonating a half pound of TNT as opposed to a full pound. If you use teency little quantities of it, you can control the heat that's given off, but the heat won't last long enough to make any use of it. If you use larger amounts, then you'll get plenty of heat but have no way of using again. You'll also have to be wary of using ANY fissile material because you run a VERY high risk of having it go supercritical as it all is formed in the reaction. It'd be really nice if the thermit reaction could be mastered and controlled to economically produce energy, but that's just not the case.

[sungmintd8]

Hmmm... I don't have the money to test this, even though I do have plenty of time (the time I spend pondering about these mixtures). To do this safely I would need a setup, I don't think there is one around town here too. Oh, and how hot would the temperatures get, considering this is nuclear? I've never done really indepth nuclear studies, so I don't know if there would be a difference.

[jdurg]

Thermite temperatures typically get into the thousands of degrees celcius. Hence why iron is produced as a liquid, and some other common metals boil.

[RyanJ]

Thermite temperatures typically get into the thousands of degrees celcius. Hence why iron is produced as a liquid, and some other common metals boil.

 

Isn't that dangerous (Vapour metal) does not seem like a nice thing to have arround

 

Can a thermite reaction occur between a lot of things? I know Aluminium and Iron(III) Oxide react like this but are there others?

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[jdurg]

Yeah a boiling metal is dangerous, but it quickly cools down and liquifies again. It's just that the sudden boil can cause molten metal to be flung all over the place and start a huge fire.

 

The premise behind a thermit reaction is that you take a very reactive metal, and a metal oxide. The very reactive metal, in most cases aluminum, will take the oxygen from the less reactive metal's oxide forming aluminum oxide and the less reactive metal. The heat generated is of such a great magnitude that the metal formed is a liquid. This can be done with virtually any metal and metal oxide. The HUGE problem is that the degree of reaction varies widely. Something like the Al/Fe-oxide thermit is actually VERY tame, believe it or not, yet it's still an unpredictable and violent reaction.

[sungmintd8]

I knew the original temperatures, but I'm wordering if thorium could create hotter temperatures, close to 5000-6000 degrees celcius. I'm trying to find a way to contain this also, and figure out how it will heat the water, starting the electrical generator or whatever process I can uses.

[RyanJ]

I knew the original temperatures, but I'm wordering if thorium could create hotter temperatures, close to 5000-6000 degrees celcius. I'm trying to find a way to contain this also, and figure out how it will heat the water, starting the electrical generator or whatever process I can uses.

 

Yes I think it would be hotter.

 

Good luck containing this stuff - most metals and most solids will melt at those temperatures. I've seen thus suff (Iron(III) thermite) melth through a half foot steel block with little effort, thats only about 2500 degrees centigrade, you'll be talking about 3000+ for yours I'd think

 

 

Very dangrous, not reccomended unless you are shure you can contain this stuff and are shure you know what you are doing and can verify the purity of the reactants as once the reaction starts you will not be able to stop it...

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

 

PS:@jdurg thanks for the information

[sungmintd8]

Thanks, now all I need is a small amount of thorium, and a place to safely grind and contain it. I think I'll have a 1/10 mixture, using very little to see how this is gonna work. Plain thermite (Fe/Al) is dangerous stuff, I know from seeing it in action.

[RyanJ]

Thanks, now all I need is a small amount of thorium, and a place to safely grind and contain it. I think I'll have a 1/10 mixture, using very little to see how this is gonna work. Plain thermite (Fe/Al) is dangerous stuff, I know from seeing it in action.

 

Thorium is radioactive right? Are you shure you want to run the risk of some of it evaporating and spreading radioactive stuff over your area because that could possible happen....

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[jdurg]

Yes, thorium is radioactive. It's melting point is 1750 degrees Celcius and its boiling point is 4790 degrees C. I don't have a CRC handbook with me at the moment, so I cannot calculate the enthalpy of reaction for 3ThO2 + 6Al => 2Al2O3 + 3Th. Just keep in mind that Thorium is MUCH more reactive than iron is. As a result, as the liquid thorium forms it will most likely ignite in the air and form the thorium oxide again. I would test this out using praseodymium oxide first as the chemistry of Pr is pretty close to that of Th.

[vrus]

But if the metal displaced liquefies, won't it get oxidised by oxygen inthe air again ?

[RyanJ]

But if the metal displaced liquefies, won't it get oxidised by oxygen inthe air again ?

 

I think jdurg just said that

 

Just keep in mind that Thorium is MUCH more reactive than iron is. As a result, as the liquid thorium forms it will most likely ignite in the air and form the thorium oxide again.

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[jdurg]

Yup. Iron typically doesn't exhibit this reoxidation again in a typical thermit reaction because the reaction of iron and atmospheric oxygen isn't all that intense. The concentration of O2 in the atmosphere isn't high enough to really get the molten iron going. Still, some of it does oxidize and you can see that on the iron once it cools.

 

With something like thorium, or zirconium, or magnesium, however, the reaction with oxygen under normal atmospheric conditions is VERY vigorous. (Hence why Zr and Mg have been used in flashbulbs, and why Thorium is used in lantern mantles). There's no need for an increased concentration of O2 to get those metals to burn violently.

[sungmintd8]

Yeah... I wasn't too prepared to test it all so soon. I'm just getting the theoretical at the moment. I'm gonna contain this hopefully, somewhere. I see that as a good energy source if done right. If I do test this, I'm gonna do it in about maybe 10-100 g. increments, just to get an idea, this multipies fast, as the reaction ammounts get bigger.