Combustibility and Force of Explosion

[zking786]

How would you rate the following compounds' released energy upon combustion (the use would be in an automobile engine).

 

1. H2 and O2

2. COH2

3. Gasoline

 

I'm trying to see how a carbon-based electrolysis system (which produces COH2) would compare to the other fuels. Is it comperable, more powerful, or less? I would think less because the two hydrogens aren't bonded together. Then again, I am a fairly basic chemistry student. Someone told me that combustion in an internal combustion engine requires three elements: oxygen, hydrogen, and carbon. Is this true?

[YT2095]

COH2 ?

 

I don`t know of any comound with that formula, if you added a few more H`s you could get Methanol CH3OH is that what you`re after?

 

as for the combustion engine yes, those 3 are required, the Carbon is optional however, but typicaly it`s a hydrocarbon used such as Octane.

[insane_alien]

I believe CH2O exists and is called methanal is this what you were meaning?

[YT2095]

methanal (formaldehyde) not very good as a fuel!

[zking786]

If you see this site, their method of electrolysis generates COH2 (not CH2O).

http://www.blazelabs.com/pics/coh2-1.jpg

[insane_alien]

typo? or maybe its a mixture of CO(carbon monoxide) and H2(hydrogen)

[YT2095]

you`ll never get Carbon monoxide through electolysis in a wet reaction.

 

btw, seen the site and... LOL

[zking786]

But they reference to a site where they actually power a generator with the produced gas. What do you suggest it is?

[zking786]

I know a friend who has built a simillar model with carbon electrodes. The products are Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen and are used to fuel an engine.

[YT2095]

well the carbon won`t be part of the Fuel, be sure

 

it sounds like basic electrolysis of ionised water, probably acidulated with Sulphuric, the carbon rods eventualy break down into a powder/sludge, they`re not the best electrodes to use in this instance.

and the H2 and O2 will certainly power an engine, but it will need to be a specialy modified one, try putting that directly into a normal petrol engine and you`re asking for a whole mess of trouble!

[zking786]

I thought carbon electrodes and platinum electrodes last long?

 

Also, is the energy stored more in the H-H bonds or in the C-H bonds

[YT2095]

they do last, platimun is the best though, stainless steel in acidulated water works great too.

 

H-H bond is roughly 436 kj/mol^-1 and C-H is 435 kj/mol^-1

[stormy]

Despite the previous negative comments from some rest assured that COH2 is a true gas. It's energy per unit is approximately 6% les than pure methane.

 

The carbon is removed from the electrode by a high amperage discharge from a portable welding power supply.

 

My concern with this fuel is simple: How much does the power required to create the gaseous fuel detract from the power available to the internal combustion engine? We need to have environmentally safe fuels which do not require excess amounts of "dirty" energy to create.

 

For example, Methane is a beautiful fuel leaving only heat, water vapor and CO2 from it's combustion. However, if the source of the Methane is fossil based it's use will add to the CO2 load in the atmosphere and increase global warming. Yet if the Methane source is from recycled bio-mass there is no net addition to the CO2 load as the CO2 is removed by organics and then returned via combustion.

 

Another example: H2O2 yields only heat, oxygen and water vapor during disasociation. This fuel requires half of it's energy yield to be manufactured. Therefore, even if it was not shock & contaminate sensitive, H2O2 would be a poor choice as "dirty" energy would be used for it's manufacture.

 

I suggest that you research the literature available for energy conteny of COH2 and the processes by which it can be manufactured in the lab.

 

Keep thinking, for that is the only way we will make the break-through to truly green fuels!

[ecoli]

I suggest that you research the literature available for energy conteny of COH2 and the processes by which it can be manufactured in the lab.

 

you have a link?

[jdurg]

Despite the previous negative comments from some rest assured that COH2 is a true gas. It's energy per unit is approximately 6% les than pure methane.

 

The carbon is removed from the electrode by a high amperage discharge from a portable welding power supply.

 

My concern with this fuel is simple: How much does the power required to create the gaseous fuel detract from the power available to the internal combustion engine? We need to have environmentally safe fuels which do not require excess amounts of "dirty" energy to create.

 

For example' date=' Methane is a beautiful fuel leaving only heat, water vapor and CO2 from it's combustion. However, if the source of the Methane is fossil based it's use will add to the CO2 load in the atmosphere and increase global warming. Yet if the Methane source is from recycled bio-mass there is no net addition to the CO2 load as the CO2 is removed by organics and then returned via combustion.

 

Another example: H2O2 yields only heat, oxygen and water vapor during disasociation. This fuel requires half of it's energy yield to be manufactured. Therefore, even if it was not shock & contaminate sensitive, H2O2 would be a poor choice as "dirty" energy would be used for it's manufacture.

 

I suggest that you research the literature available for energy conteny of COH2 and the processes by which it can be manufactured in the lab.

 

Keep thinking, for that is the only way we will make the break-through to truly green fuels![/quote']

 

Please, please, please do some research there. It sounds as if you've learned a little bit about fuels but not the whole thing. Here are some rebuttals:

 

The only possible compound with the atoms C-O-H-H in it is Formaldehyde. There is no other possible structure for those atoms. So the COH2 gas you are talking about is either a mixture of CO and H2 (Known as Water Gas), or Formaldehyde which is a horribly inefficient and toxic compound. You can prove me wrong by pulling up an Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for this COH2 compound you're thinking of, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

 

Combustion of gasoline leaves only water, carbon dioxide, and heat. It's a hydrocarbon just like methane is. The problem is that inside an internal combustion engine you have reactions going on at VERY high temperatures and VERY high pressures. This causes nitrogen in the air to oxidize and any sulfur in the air to oxidize. This results in the formation of the nitrogen oxides which are the biggest contributor to pollution. You simply can't avoid that formation no matter what you do.

 

It doesn't matter where the methane comes from. Combustion of methane will produce CO2 regardless. There is no magical sump-pump to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.

[vrus]

The problem is that inside an internal combustion engine you have reactions going on at VERY high temperatures and VERY high pressures. This causes nitrogen in the air to oxidize and any sulfur in the air to oxidize. This results in the formation of the nitrogen oxides which are the biggest contributor to pollution. You simply can't avoid that formation no matter what you do.

 

I've never ever heard of anything like COH2 myself.

 

But jdurg, I read somewhere that combustion of Hydrogen purifies the air, as it completes the combustion of NOx and other unburnt hydrocarbons. Will burning hydrogen also create SO2? I thought the sulphur came from the fossil fuel itself and not the atmosphere....

[jdurg]

Various amounts of sulfur oxides exist in the air normally. While petrol formulations do add to this sulfur content in air, there is a great deal of it that normally exists in cities. In reality, the sulfur isn't the biggest problem one faces. It's the nitrogen oxides and those you cannot avoid. Even if you are combusting hydrogen and oxygen together, the high temperatures and high pressures resulting from that combustion will result in the formation of nitrogen oxides. It's something that you just can't avoid. The higher the pressure and/or the higher the temperature, the more likely it is for nitrogen and oxygen to react. The optimal combustion would occur at a lower temperature and a lower pressure in order to avoid the formation of any unwanted NOx's.