Aethelwulf

I have been reading more on this subject and I am not convinced that this is a viable approach for quantum theory in its treatment of gravitational physics. The Hamiltonian and momentum contraints of General Relativity yield the so-called ''nonesensical'' idea's you refer to, the timeless scenarios. However, many physicists feel there is a deep meaning to this, and is rooted much deeper than timeless equations like the time dependant Schrodinger Equation which is the analogue equation of the WDW equation. The reason why is because not only does time vanish but also complexification. The WDW is inherently real and if this approach is true it has massive implications for quantum gravity (many of them I bet are overlooked by scientists today). I'd like to see a more rigorous reason for a time parameter/ evolution parameter or whatever name you wish to dub [math]\tau[/math] (Personally I prefer a Parameterized Time.) . How do you derive the equation above from the WDW-equation? Notice that your complexification in the Stueckelberg-Schrödinger equation is achieved by making mention of time again in your universe. Why should we take it seriously rather than the WDW equation which has been derived from as one might see it, General relativistic first principles? I have read that this evolution parameter may have physical measurable properties. A bizarre statement if [math]t \rightarrow \tau[/math], since [math]t[/math] is not an observable - then it made talk of designing evolution parameter clocks... which is just another clock on the wall? This doesn't mean you can ''observe time''. I blame the wiki article for bad use of language. I have noticed one thing - it all heavily relies on the so called, ''reversibility of time''. Since it is a much abused concept, I am not convinced by this approach one bit - I also notice that the wiki article tries to justify reversibility by noting that antiparticles in a Feynman Diagram appear to move back in time. No self-serving scientist actually believes this though. I'd also like to note that whether you think it is nonsensical or not, timelessness is a growing phenomenon that is being appreciated by more and more physicists. I don't find it nonsensical. I think what is nonsensical is to believe time exists outside of the mind, objectively and independently of a recording device. I notice also in the WIKI article, it says as a hypothesis: ''Hypothesis I Assume t = Einsteinian time and reject Newtonian time.'' What's hypothetical about this? This is what has happened. Einsteinian time overthrew Newtonian time a while back now. Newtonian time consisted of absolute clocks in the universe - he also perceived time as something which inexorably flowed from past to future. Both these concepts have been shown to be the wrong kind of view of time, so I don't understand why this all stands on ''hypothesis 1'', also, even if one considers the coordinate time, it's use is really only valid for local events. Einstein showed that whilst you can view time as a component of the metric, his general relativity was in essence rooted from timeless propositions, world lines which where static for instance. Interestingly, there is not even a past or future in relativity. In physics today most of us come to realize all you can really talk about is a present moment which is unceasing. That's perhaps the most solid kind of time you may ever be able to talk about.

I didn't compare them. Anyway, the only way you can have a center to the universe is by saying that every point on the spacetime map was the center.

I'm sorry, I've never heard of it. Since you will be better read than me on the subject, can you tell me how [math]\tau[/math],this evolution parameter defines time? How is it applied to the universe as a ''whole''? I'm reading this right now to get some idea on it http://www.platonia.com/complex_numbers.pdf

Right, so I said I would try and explain what a rank 2 tensor is. It's difficult trying to explain this stuff to anyone - even when you are trying to teach something to someone in a very short post - but I think I have a way that can help you understand it. Some simple equations to consider might be [math]A_{(y)}^{m} = \frac{\partial y^m}{\partial x^y} A_{(x)}^{r}[/math] The upper and lower indices here [math]A_{(x)}^{r}[/math] are called the ''components of the vector.'' Consider a second one as well [math]B_{(y)}^{n} = \frac{\partial y^n}{\partial x^s} B_{(x)}^{s}[/math] How would we write our first tensor mixed in with our second tensor? You would have to mix them in an appropriate way: [math]A_{(y)}^{m}B_{(y)}^{n} = \frac{\partial y^m}{\partial x^y}\frac{\partial y^n}{\partial x^s}A_{(x)}^{r} B_{(x)}^{s}[/math] And that is us, wasn't too hard eh? This is what you call a mixed tensor of ''second rank''. We can identify it by changing it slightly [math]T_{(y)}^{mn} = \frac{\partial y^m}{\partial x^y}\frac{\partial y^n}{\partial x^s} T_{(x)}^{rs}[/math] Think of these upper indices as counting the rank of your tensor, so the upper indices [math]T_{(y)}^{mn}[/math] would count as a second rank tensor. The tensor above is in fact a contravariant tensor because the important indices just spoke about are on the uppercase. If they are lowercase, they are covariant tensors: [math]T^{(y)}_{mn} = \frac{\partial y^r}{\partial x^m}\frac{\partial y^s}{\partial x^n} T^{(x)}_{rs}[/math] And viola! That's you done. If you need to know anything else, I will be happy to try and help.

Since the gravitational charge is the mass which can change due to velocity, I feel the need to quote Taylor and Wheeler here: ''The concept of 'relativistic mass' is subject to misunderstanding. That's why we don't use it. First, it applies the name mass - belonging to the magnitude of a 4-vector - to a very different concept, the time component of a 4-vector. Second, it makes increase of energy of an object with velocity or momentum appear to be connected with some change in internal structure of the object. In reality, the increase of energy with velocity originates not in the object but in the geometric properties of space-time itself.'' If they are correct, then the gravitational charge cannot change due to velocity because the gravitational charge is treated in this work as an intrinsic internal property. Instead, the gravitational charge only appears to change because of a change in energy which is resultant from the spacetime geometry. Which is a fascinating thought.

I think it's splitting hairs somewhat - the photon is the smallest unit (piece) of energy known. You can't get smaller than a photon. This is well known in physics - known among many scientists. A photons size would vary according to the frequency. The lower the frequency, the smaller the size.

Hawkins? You do of course mean...Steven Hawking. Has a ''g'' and there is no ''s''.

You work out the spacetime curvature using what is called the Curvature Tensor. I will write a bit up later on it to help explain it to you. I will write something up in about half an hour, I am just getting something to eat first. I have going to have to explain this as quick as I can because my life just got very busy lol You're gonna have to know some math to completely understand this, even some knowledge on tensors. I can't explain everything today. The thing which calculates curvature in General Relativity is the Riemann Tensor and its given as [math]R^{\rho}_{\sigma \mu \nu} = \partial_{\mu} \Gamma^{\rho}_{\mu \sigma} - \partial^{\rho}_{\nu \sigma} + \Gamma^{\rho}_{\mu \lambda} \Gamma^{\lambda}_{\nu \sigma} - \Gamma^{\rho}_{\nu \lambda} \Gamma^{\lambda}_{\mu \sigma}[/math] The part [math]\Gamma_{\mu}\Gamma_{\nu}[/math] is what you call the commutator of two matrices. You can rewrite it more compactly when you bracket expressions and realize that these are the derivatives of the connection ''Gamma'' [math]\frac{\partial \Gamma_{\mu}}{\partial x^{\nu}} - \frac{\partial \Gamma_{\nu}}{\partial x^{\mu}} + \Gamma_{\nu}\Gamma_{\mu} - \Gamma_{\mu}\Gamma_{\nu}[/math] You can only get the Riemann tensor by contracting the ''Ricci Tensor''. Notice that one alpha is on the upper indices and one is on the lower indices: [math]R_{\mu \nu} = R^{\alpha}_{\mu \alpha \nu}[/math] Repeated indices means you automatically sum over these indices. The lowercase [math]\mu \alpha[/math] actually describe some rotation plain for a very small area displacement [math](dx^{\nu}, dx^{\mu})[/math] You can also contract using the metric, for instance [math]R_{\lambda \sigma \mu \nu} = g_{\lambda \rho} R^{\rho}_{\sigma \mu \nu}[/math] Can you guess which one is contracted? If you said [math]\rho[/math], you'd be right. What is [math]g_{\mu \nu}[/math] contracted with [math]R^{\mu \nu}[/math]? It's just [math]R[/math] is the answer. You would get the curvature scalar by contracted the Ricci Tensor [math]R^{\mu \nu}[/math] and has this following form [math]\nabla_{\mu} R^{\mu \nu} = \frac{1}{2} g^{\mu \nu} \partial_{\mu} R[/math] where we call [math]\nabla_{\mu}[/math] the covariant derivative. I think the covariant derivative originally came from work on fibre bundles. The property of a covariant derivative just has this form: [math]\nabla_{\mu}AB = A\nabla B + (\nabla A) B[/math] The covariant derivative of [math]g_{\mu \nu}[/math] is actually zero. [math]\nabla_{\mu} R^{\mu \nu} = \frac{1}{2} \nabla_{\mu}g^{\mu \nu} R[/math] [math]\nabla [R^{\mu \nu} - \frac{1}{2}g^{\mu \nu} R ]= 0[/math] This can be rewritten as a short-hand [math]R^{\mu \nu} - \frac{1}{2}g^{\mu \nu} R = G^{\mu \nu}[/math] so [math]\nabla_{\mu}G^{\mu \nu} = 0[/math] This is the local continuity equation for gravitational energy. As I said before, [math]g^{\mu \nu}[/math] derivative is zero, so what we have is [math]R - 2R = 0[/math] and [math]R=0[/math] when there is no energy-momentum present. So we learned the ''Einstein Tensor'' [math]\nabla_{\mu} G^{\mu \nu}=0[/math] The right hand side of [math]\nabla_{\mu} R^{\mu \nu} = \frac{1}{2} \nabla_{\mu}g^{\mu \nu} R[/math] describes the matter in a universe. Even when matter is zero, it does not mean that curvature has to be zero. Gravitational waves for instance and other forms of energy can cause curvature in a vacuum which is an interesting facet of the theory to keep in mind. Now all this stuff is related to Einsteins equations because they can either derive the equations or be derived from his field equations. They are what you call a rank 2 tensor, and If I have time later, I will come back and explain in some detail what a rank 2 tensor is by introducing a new thing for you to try and understand, called contravariant and covariant tensors.

Then you misunderstand what I am disagreeing with. I perhaps should have been clearer. I agree that there is such a thing as a ''unit of measure'' for a joule and even descriptions of other measures as well. What I was strongly disagreeing with was this description in my context of things - why do you think I started pulling out definitions and describing it as an elementary structure? As for having an energy smaller than a photon, do you of an example?

I don't know what you are arguing. You explicitely said that time is the evolution of the universe - this is wrong. When you quantize the EFE's, you get the WDW-equation [math]H|\psi> = 0[/math] Does not allow a global time translation of the universe. You've edited a part of thus: If you are now talking about ''fundamental things''it would best not to talk about ''the universe as a whole''. Global concepts are less fundamental than the Local concepts. Time is local strictly. You can't talk about ''time for the universe as the whole'' as you put it and I strongly stated why.

Not what I was talking about. ''Unit'' - an elementary fragment, a ''unit of energy'' as in a single particle of energy. Your definition or use of the phrase was different to mine. I tried to explain this above. Even an ''elementary unit'' as meaning an ''elementary particle''. I don't have time either for quibbles on terminology differences of ''mass vs matter.'' I may from time-to-time freely exchange them. They are quibbles to an untrained eye and just a nuisance to talk about otherwise.

Electromagnetic Biofields exists... but I doubt this is what you had in mind.

Never mind Maguejo, I'd be concerned with your answer. Time is local - there is no global time in General Relativity. So it cannot be an ''evolution parameter of the universe as a whole''. Time vanishes in GR because world lines are static and diffeomorphism invariance is not even a true time evolution, motion arises as a symmetry of the theory.

Writing the above in a simpler form, [math]GM^2 = \hbar( \frac{E}{m-m_0})[/math] The extra energy of any moving particle is directly related to an increase of the energy of a system - Indeed, this is what led Einstein to the idea that perhaps all inertia is is the energy of some system. I believe this is true as well. I defined it as a special type of energy, the gravitational energy of the system [math]E_g[/math], to differentiate from non-rest energies. This must mean that the gravitational charge must vary as well proportionally to moving particles.

A photon is the smallest amount of energy we know of...what better unit to measure energy by? If you know of a smaller energy I stand corrected. A pure mass would be? What is a pure energy? Energy is energy, mass is mass. The purity of the two do not variate between particles. I think I should make it clear, that Swansont's objection to ''a unit of energy'' may be related to the idea that a photon is not a unit of measure. I disagree entirely. Let us look at the definition of a ''unit'' - a terminology for a photon which is used much; '' 1. An individual, group, structure, or other entity regarded as an elementary structural or functional constituent of a whole.'' Notice, it is a structure or elementary functional constituent of a whole. By unit, I mean such this. what Swansont means, he needs to learn to explain himself. For... you cannot get much more elementary than energy itself. Even our most recent poster has noted that energy comes as corpuscular packs. The word ''packs'' here can be exchanged for ''units'' as they pretty much mean the same thing.

you're welcome.

Yes, it can be contending to think that it is infintely expanding, meaning that there is an infinite amount of space (including time) abound. Infinity just means ''one more than now''.

Well... it's harder to say energy is a man made concept, because it is out ''there''. We can measure the spin of a photon for instance, which is generally considered one of the most basic units of ''energy.'' What might be invented is it's interpretation... energy itself however has been measured ----- the difference with time is that it truly hasn't outside of our subjective experience of it. This is why time is not truly an observable. It's not really something with anything ''physical with can be measured'' about it.

We haven't actually tested it enough to be certain. From the last records I read... The amount we have made is miniscule. The page I read this from was a NASA page, if my memory serves (which it usually does). Trust me, we have not created enough of the stuff to see noticable gravitational effects.

I will reply with the statements at least you may think there is some objection to: ''In this way I think the meaning of "the flow of time" refers to the unimpeded singular direction of time -- that time cannot go backwards. This is where there can be disagreement in the theory of time. My view is that time is a very simple man-made concept which can be solely defined as: "an interval of change" and nothing more. But there are many others in quantum physics that would make the definition of time much more complicated. Bottom line is that there are different hypothesis both mainstream and otherwise, as to the essence of time. '' This is right, the first part. (not that the rest must be wrong to mention) - that the flow of time means a certain directionality to time. To be honest, time-reversal is a much abused concept in physics - we have no evidence for it. The days when physicists argued whether there was an arrow in time (an omega point) is what brought about the idea that maybe when the universe gravitationally-collapses is what would induce a time symmetry when objects would ascend from the ground and reassemble on the table, like the cup you dropped but broke on the hard floor due to the gravitational force... (just read Hawking's a brief history of time for this example). What is mainstream however is the view I have taken: The idea is that there is no flow, that is it rather a succession of beginnings and ends. I don't even think you had a major disagreement with this, but was worth mentioning. The rest you seemed to agree on, which is good in my eyes

Since [math]\omega[/math] will lye along the axis of rotation, and if [math]r_s[/math] defines the radius of our system which could or may not be set equal to the Compton Wavelength, and if this is related to the quantized condition [math]\hbar = \frac{GM^2}{c}[/math] Then I ask, is there some kind of spin relationship between the square of the gravitational charge of a system (perhaps along the same lines as a Gravi-electromagnetic force) with the angular spin of a particle? We'd have to start thinking about inertia as well, even in a classical sense. One derivation I came to followed the lines: [math]M=\frac{r^3}{2Gt^2}[/math] multiply M on both sides and then rearrange [math]2t GM^2 =Mr^3[/math] What we established from my derivation in the OP was [math]GM^2 = E_gr_s[/math] Set [math]r=r_s[/math] again, and substitute meanings and then divide by radius we get [math]2Et^2 = Mr^2[/math] It turns out after a little investigation that [math]Et^2[/math] is defined as an inertia of bodies from two separate sources: http://books.google....squared&f=false http://www.worldscin...5902000638.html (except) in my derivation, we have an interesting factor of [math]2[/math] showing up. The reason why this could have important relevance, (in this derivation), is because [math]2Et^2[/math] has been set equal with [math]Mr^2[/math]. Anyone even with a slight knowledge of ''inertia physics'' will know that [math]Mr^2[/math] is in fact the rotational inertia of a body. (and just to add) Here is a paper by Schwinger who was noted by lloyd motz in his own derivation of [math]\sqrt{G}M[/math] (the square root of the gravitational charge) - an interesting read on similar approaches by Lloyd and a direct importance with my own work http://wdxy.hubu.edu...10535154942.pdf I also derive a generic integral form of [math]\frac{GM^2}{\hbar} = \frac{\int \sqrt{Fds}}{\sqrt{\frac{1}{v}} \int \sqrt{Fdt - m_0}}[/math] To define the inertia of a moving body where [math]M_0[/math] is a rest mass term. This would mean then that the gravitational charge can be computed in terms of a rest mass given as (or understanding it with terms of rest mass) as: [math]GM^2 = \hbar(\frac{\int \sqrt{Fds}}{\sqrt{\frac{1}{v}} \int \sqrt{Fdt - m_0}})[/math] Albeit, it looks like a complicated mess. http://mathpages.com/rr/s2-03/2-03.htm

Someone else started a thread on Aether Theory. Many people said it was ''proven wrong''.... That is not true. The old classical theory of Aether was proven wrong - this does not mean an Aether does not exist. In a recent conversation with someone, it was made apparent to me that there could be a ''quantum Aether.'' In your case, the wind Aether, is like a dragging effect on time, much as a syth rakes through an old mans crops. An object in the classical version would do much the same thing - it would plow through spacetime dragging the background energies with it. I believe it is this type of ''wind'' that was hoping to be observed. The idea came about from the Luminiferous Aether and it described the motion of particles in a medium of light particles.

When it comes to evolution, it could be stopped, till the end of time if you had a perfect type of measuring device capable of making periodic measurements on a system - such as the induced type I spoke about between myself and Swansont concerning weak measurements on a system. Basically, if you make slight observations in a duration of ''time'' you can stop an atom radiating away its energy - that halts any evolutionary processes involved with the changing of your system - the zeno effect was predicted and proven to be completely accurate within the bounds of quantum mechanical predictions. You may think of it as a success of quantum theory. You keep going back to ''ground states'' - this is not applicable here. Yes it is true, you cannot ''freeze an object to absolute zero''. This is because absolute zero is a limit which can never be obtained - there is always a motion of [math]\frac{1}{2}\hbar \omega[/math] left over - the energy of a simple harmonic oscillator never diminishes. But what I speak of, is something completely different, separate to so-called ''temperatures'' of system. Now, there certainly is no universal accepted theory of time, but we certainly know a few things ---- things where Newtonian views of time simply do not hold, such as a flow to time. For instance, if time flows, what is it flowing relative to? Naturally, consciousness is not a physical phenomenon per se, but rather a subjective experience. Some people then, might say that time flows relative to us, but this cannot be the right approach, rather it would be simpler saying that our experience of time passing is what gives us the ''sense of time'' flowing from one experience to another. Objects and events outside of our minds have no evidence whatsoever that time is a real objective feature of the world - we project our experiences of the world unto it. The world is scrutinized by our subjective sense of it, our attentively probing reality is scrutinized by our observations and measurements. Our observations only make sense therefore, because we have a sense of time. Remove time and we'd have no sense of ''passing events'' just as much as the objective world would care not less about a real existing time. ( Let me add a bit more about these observational properties you are hung up on to clear the water perhaps?) An atom can remain it's ground state because you make observations on it over periods of time. This can keep the atom from reaching higher energy levels by suspending its quantum evolution. A system cannot be frozen to absolute ground states, because it will always keep a measure of kinetic energy about it. Ground state and absolute ground states to me is the language I would use to solve this little problem.

Here's a good paper on electromagnetic mass - a topic spoke about in the OP. http://ivanik3.narod.ru/EMagnitizm/JornalPape/ParadocsCullwick/hnizdo_ajp_65_55_97.pdf

There was an experiment recently which might solve this dichotomy... I'm currently looking for it. It involved entangled photons. The short version (which only I can remember) is that particles when not being observed where showing up in places they shouldn't have been. The moon is a macroscopic system - just as is Schrodinger's Cat. I don't believe the cat will show up in a different place nor the moon, but maybe realism should be cut up into microscopic realism and macroscopic realism - in which case, I'd throw out the microscopic realism. found it: http://www.economist.com/node/13226725 I read the paper a while back as well, it was quite technical. I suppose if the realism strictly depends on whether the object is still ''there''.... or still ''exists'' is a big difference. If the object is not exactly ''there'' any more, but is in a different place, it puts a new slant on things. If the position of an object does not matter in realism, then long it lives.