north

because you have not come to terms with what I'm saying as a truth and what I'm saying has nothing to do with metaphysics or philosophy but with reality

yes not end of story yes one way is to represent this geometrically but geometrics does not go deep enough geometrics merely describes the consequence of energy/matter angles but does not tell me why ? Any suggestion that relativity is incorrect (if that's what you are suggesting) should be discussed in its own thread. Not here. light bends BECAUSE of the ENERGY and /or matter in space

how is what I put forth wrong ? space has NO substance associated to it , in and of its self and time is certainly a mathematical concept and is based on an objects movements , which are based on the objects nature and the interactions with other objects what is left other than the reality of the consequenes of the sun's atmosphere , the closer to it , the more bent the light is

I'm not avoiding reference but who do I reference too ? who has thought the way I do about the subject ? no one that I know of

I already have in other threads I'm sure of which you are aware first lets look at space can you give me a block of space , without confinment ( such as walls ) go outside and bring me a block of space and present it to me as a seperate block of space to the space of which you are in can you do that ?

the beauty of Reason is that it not only brings ALL current information into the fold on any subject but also allows for future info to be applied and thought upon Reason evolves in and of its self logic does not evolve in and of it self because logic is based on the info given

you'd just fall until you couldn't fall no more ahh no you wouldn't be weightless no you'd just keep falling until something stopped you , rock , molten rock etc. not gravity hmmm...

this so called space-time is curved is very , very , very misleading light is curved or bends because of the energy and/or matter in that region of space neither space or time has ANY and I mean ANY substance associated with them which means that neither space or time can AFFECT anything at all

I disagree light is not curved by gravity but by the closness of light to the sun atmosphere and rotation think of being in a desert and the heat-wave off the desert surface and the consequent optics observered now apply

Martin through all this how does continum geometry either by GR or Quantum gets us any closer to the actual physical dynamics which involves cause,effect and affect and in NO particular order , of any dynamics out there( the Universe ) this space-time geometry concept has failed to provide the real explaination of the goings on ( physical dynamics of the interaction(s) of energy and matter ) other than to say it is " geometric " ) well ... not that the geometry is not important , it is , its just that the geometry is the result of the consequence of the physical dynamics of objects and their inherent natures hence we theories based on space-time which in the physical-dynamics of the Universe means nothing really

we are now beyond Aristotle and Einstein for a very good reason

I see your point but at the same time , this space-time perception , as in both have some sort of reality keeps popping up so that both space and time influences things is pervasive reason says otherwise

yes theories are produced it seems by logic alone sort of the spock syndome perhaps the use of Reason would be a better approach the difference between logic and reason is this ; logic uses the info provided and comes to a conclusion whereas reason accumlates , draws in info all the time , and questions and therefore , at times comes to a different conclusion

the Universe is defined as a place of space , energy and matter reside which of course is true to answer the question of whether within the Universe there are regions of which BB ( big-bang ) has not reached , there is none why so ? because it is the energy and therefore matter that has created any region of space any space that is present is based on energy-matter and any energy-matter is based on space both space and energy-matter go hand and hand NO the matter IN that space bends persay because it is in a fluid form because the connection between two rotating bodies and the energy both are giving off for instance we forget at times that the sun for instance is a three dimensional object meaning that the energy it is throwing off is in ALL directions therefore that when any energy from a star interacts with energy from another star there are consequences hence bending of light from a star who's light comes close to the atmosphere of the sun , consequence > optics as I said it is energy-matter that bends NOT space in-and-of -itself no such convertion takes place at all impossible further I propose that for any atom say Hydrogen , to act as hydrogen does , and does so properly needs space that extends beyond the electron , perhaps ^2 or even 3^

like I said none just hoped you could Reason it out

because since space has NO substance related to it the only Reasonable conclusion is that there must be matter , coupled with rotation , in that space which bends the light

none , there is only one other person who has argued the same way and that was about a yr ago on another site my argument is based on Reason alone take it from there north

think rotation by that huge object and the mass or matter that is within that space and the consequences

Today, 08:45 PM #16 so lets go further in my example if I raise the Earth so that the north pole of the Earth is parallel to the north pole of the sun there is little bending of light why ? because both poles are at the same level , so the light from the star behind the sun goes straight . the is no bending down towards the Earth now if I bring the the southern pole of the Earth to the north pole of the sun , then the same thing happens , with the light of the star as did when I brought up the north pole of the Earth , no bending , just straight through however the northern pole of the Earth is now well above the suns atmosphere and as a consequence there is no bending of the light from the star behind the sun

THIS is the ultimate question and of which there is NO answer by anybody I have asked this question for years space is a consequense of matter time is a mathematical concept , based on the fundamental movement(s) of energy and matter time is NOT in any way a substance

" appear " is the key word here because to the object it is not shrinking realitivity is based on perception for instance ; a star behind the sun the stars light is bent not from space-time which is the main-stream thinking but because the suns atmosphere which Einstein did not consider its not so much that he was wrong , just that the interpration of the physical dynamics is wrong

NO if you need any more proof let me know , please good question

why would you ask this question ? what is your basis for this question ? or why does this question of yours make sense to you ?

knowledge as far as I know , science is the Greek word for knowledge

because thats where physics is at mathematical physics seems to think " space can bend " it can't it just " seems " that way