Jaden
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If it were proven that God doesn't exist, would the world become a better place?
Most people would probably be unable to understand this proof, and continue to believe anyway. However, if people did stop believing in God(s) there would be a lot of changes, both positive and negative, to society.. ie there would probably be less wars and less discrimination, but we (humanity as a whole) would eventually lose our moral compass and probably become more self-centered. In my opinion, this would make the world a worse place to live in overall.
What are some possible changes to society/people's attitutes towards one another if their belief/hope of the existence of God would disappear?
The Christian bible has been the moral guide of western civilization for centuries. If people were to lose faith in its authority, then the moral standards of society would gradually decay. People would no longer obey the moral teaching of Jesus, "love your neighbor as yourself." Governments could make laws of course, but no human authority could ever match the authority of an all-knowing, all-powerful God.
Why are atheists so determined to prove there is no God/s to the theists?
It depends on the individual. Some probably think they are helping people by "correcting" their "false beliefs." Others (such as Richard Dawkins) try to make a career of it. There could be numerous other reasons.
Furthermore why is there so much debate/discussion about "God" in a scientific forum such as SFN?
What's the big deal all about?
Most theists (at least the Christians) wish to convince others that God is real, because they believe that they are saving other people from punishment for their sins, by allowing them the opportunity to repent. Atheists disagree with the theists, generally thinking that belief in God is foolish and/or pointless, and so they usually wish to debate the points made by theists.
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You're saying Gandalf couldn't speak magic without God's permission?
The mighty Gandalf is an exception, of course
Absurd! What book have you been reading?
Lately, the Wheel of Time series. It's quite good, even if a bit slow paced.
Jaden - As I feared, conversation with you on this topic does not appear to be even close to a valuable use of my time.
That would depend on what you're trying to achieve. If your only goal is to try and prove me wrong, then your not doing a very good job of it.
No matter what I say, and no matter how completely I demolish your position, you will ignore it and continue believing what you do.
I won't ignore anything you say. If someone makes a claim and they try to support it, I will investigate. For example, when Moontanman referred me to a list of videos which supposedly contained evidence for abiogenesis, I spent many hours watching them. I am not so stubborn that I won't admit when I have been proven wrong. It's just that you havn't done so, no matter how much you insist that you have.
In short, what you claim are miracles are not, and your so called "prophecies" also are not.
Again, you are making unsupported claims. I have given up on trying to convince you that the miracle I explained is in fact a miracle, so unless you can explain your position, lets just agree to disagree on that point. As for the prophecies though, I checked every single one that i listed. They have been fulfilled, and you saying that they haven't isn't going to change that. All of them are supported by historians and archaeologists.
You are also making the positive assertion that something cannot come from nothing without supporting it. Like others, you'll almost certainly say, "Oh yeah!! Well, what can?" What you'd be forgetting, though is that it's your assertion, not mine. You prove it. It's not up to me to disprove. Until then... Enjoy.
It is an observation. Science is about observations, and so far I have yet to see anything happen without a cause. You could also call it logic. It seems illogical for anything to happen without a reason.
Some religious folk decided that the days are actually much longer during CREATION time, but are much much faster during the rest of the time to explain how people lived for 400+ years.
Literally, it means "day". Figuratively, it means what you figure it to be... and yet, it seems to not quite be consistent with the rest of the bible.
Thanks mooey.
It also contains huge amount of prophecy that was not fulfilled.
Yes, I'm aware of this. Prophecy though, was not intended to be a prediction of the future. It was more of a warning to the nations - change their ways, or suffer the wrath of God. Jeremiah 18 verses 7-10 show this:
If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed,and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
If you view prophecies as warnings rather than as predictions, it makes perfect sense that they would not always be fulfilled.
And the prophecies that WERE fulfilled are really very vague, so they're a bit of a stretch.
Many of them are, but many more are quite specific. I listed a few of these specific prophecies which have been fulfilled in an earlier post, but I'll re-create the list here for convenience:
Amos 9: 7-15. Outlines the destruction of the nation Israel, but says that its people will not be totally destroyed. They will instead be scattered "among all the nations." During this time the walls and ruins of Jerusalem will be rebuilt. Then a time will come when the people will be brought back from exile, and never again be "uprooted" from their land.
Jeremiah 25: 8-14. Israel and its surrounding nations will be defeated by Nebuchadnezzar and the "peoples of the north." They will serve Babylon for seventy years. After the seventy years, Babylon will be punished for its crimes, and then they themselves shall be defeated and made to serve other nations. The Babylonian empire will be destroyed forever.
Matthew 24: 1-2. The temple in Jerusalem will be destroyed completely. Not even one stone will be left upon another.
Luke 19: 41-44. Jesus says that because the people of Jerusalem have rejected Him, the city will be surrounded by enemies and destroyed.
Daniel 9: 24-26. At the time this prophecy was written, many of the Jews were in captivity in Babylon. Jerusalem and its temple had been destroyed by the Babylonians. Daniel says that the people will return to Jerusalem and rebuild. Later an 'Anointed One' (Jesus) will come, but will be rejected and killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing. Then a ruler will come with his armies and again destroy Jerusalem and the temple (as in Luke 19 41-44.)
Micah 3: 12. Jerusalem will be destroyed, the temple hill will become a mound overgrown with thickets, and Mt Zion will be ploughed like a field.
Nahum 3. The city of Nineveh will be destroyed with fire (verse 15) and many casualties (verse 3,) and never recover (verse 19.) Their guards will flee like a swarm of locusts in the sun (verse 17.)
Nahum 1: 10. The people of Nineveh will be drunk when they are defeated.
Matthew 24:14. The gospel will be preached in every nation of the world.
Luke 21: 33. The words of Jesus will never be forgotten.
You can find out that things are fulfilled after the fact any time, really, because then you fit the story to the real even that happened. The real magic would be if prophecies would be perfectly accurate *and* come true. Wouldn't this be what you'd expect of an omnipotent omniscient god? Why make it vague when you want to prophesize something you know for a fact will happen? It's not very impressive...
Some of them are very accurate. But not all of them will be, because they are dependent on the response of the people involved (as shown by Jeremiah 18.)
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Mooeypoo, is it correct that you have read the original Hebrew bible? Is it your opinion that Genesis chapter 1 (or the Hebrew equivalent) could support the idea of old earth creationism? I have read that the word translated as day in the bible is 'yom', which could also mean any unspecified period of time. I ask this because OE creation makes a lot more sense (from a scientific perspective) than YE creation.
Popularity alone is irrelevant to the validity of a claim. If millions of people thought the tooth fairy was real, that would not mean the tooth fairy actually is. The same applies to your god(s).
Agreed. I was just pointing out that it must at least seem reasonable to most people.
This is not a miracle, it is a coincidence no matter how many times you assert the contrary.
I have already explained why it could not be a coincidence. If you wish to convince me that it was only a coincidence, then you must explain how it possibly could be. So far, on this topic, you have only made statements with no explanations.
Furthermore, even if I stipulated that it was a miracle, it is still not evidence of any god.
How could a miracle occur if there is no God?
Either way, you here asserting that god gave instructions to your grandfather, or your grandfather asserting that he received instructions from god are not valid evidence of any such being.
The purpose of this thread is not to give observable evidence, it is to justify a personal belief in God. I don't expect you to necessarily believe me or my grandparents, but I do.
My larger point is that you're being quite hypocritical and applying nasty double standards. You reject the multiple lines of research supporting abiogenesis,
I don't reject the research itself - it's just that despite the research, there is still no evidence to support this theory. It also has many flaws, some of which I have explained.
and dismiss out of hand the copious evidence for the big bang model
Do you even read my posts before replying to them? I never said that I reject the big bang model. In fact, I explained in the very post that you are replying to that I do not.
yet you're willing to accept as proof of god the fact that your grandpappy changed lanes while driving one day and avoided a car wreck.
If you read posts 531 and 542, you will see that there is more to it than that. Also, this is not the only reason for my belief. It is only one of many.
If you don't see the flaw in this approach then I suspect nothing I say will ever change your mind.
Please explain how you believe my logic is flawed. You ignore the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies in the Bible, you ignore the millions who have experienced Gods presence, and you claim that some amino acids found in space are proof of the chemical evolution of life (unless, of course, you believe that there is better evidence than this.) And then you say that I am the one who is "being quite hypocritical and applying nasty double standards." And as for changing my mind, if you wish to do that, then you will need to start explaining and supporting your opinions instead of just stating them. And you would also need to refute the evidence I have given, especially the prophecies I listed in post 542. What would it require for you to believe in God's existence?
This is untrue. It is not a requirement that "something must have caused the beginning."
Nothing can happen without a cause.
Also, even if something did, not clearly understanding it yet does not ipso facto mean god(s) did it.
This is true. However, the Judeo-Christian God has much supporting evidence, and if this God is real then we already know the cause of the Big Bang. No other theory has any evidence.
Finally, even if god(s) did it, then the question remains open as to "what created god, then?" Your logic is so broken it's painfully simple to show you being wrong.
I suspect that like most believers that you may come back and say that god doesn't need a cause. Well, then you've just broken your own demands for cause... you're giving a free pass to the concept of god(s) because you WANT to believe in them, yet won't give an equivalent free pass to the big bang itself. Hypocrisy and double standards continue.
The difference between God and the Big Bang is that the big bang was an event. Something happened, and therefore there must be a cause. God never 'happened,' he is eternal. There was never an event, and therefore no cause is required. If the universe was eternal, then I would have no problem accepting that it does not need a cause. However, we know that this is not the case.
For a moment Jaden consider this, you claim that there is little or no evidence for abiogenesis, while this is simply not true and the fact is that there is a huge amount of evidence for abiogenesis,
If there is so much evidence for abiogenesis, then why can't you show me any? I have given plenty of evidence for God in previous posts. The links you gave did not contain any evidence.
You are hanging your "religious hat" on the idea that there is no natural explanation for abiogenesis and that means that there has to be a god to have created the first cell, what if indeed there is a break through and next week a scientist shows that life can be not only made in a test tube but that the process is so easy that it could have occurred on the early earth no problem what so ever. Are you honest enough to say this confirms there is no god?
How would that confirm there is no god? It would certainly eliminate that particular reason for my belief, but I would still have many more.
Abiogenenesis does not "appear to be impossible" the only thing that may seem near to impossible is to explore the events that lead up to the formation of the first life, since we have only partial knowledge about the conditions on earth billions of years ago.
What events could possibly produce homochirality in amino acids?
scientists would reject that as an explenation since it is already assumed that any actual mechanism of line of development which leads from chemical evolution to biological evolution, must be understood in the terms of material development
What if that assumption is wrong?
Evolution on the other hand has massive evidence, and already refutes the idea that God created unchangeable species, as species DO change over long evolutionary periods.
Where in the Bible does it say that God created unchangeable species? Evolution is a fact of nature; life adapts, but how does this disprove God?
BTW, there is ZERO evidence for deities!
While this is redundant feel free to provide some of that "way more" evidence...
I have given evidence earlier in this thread. The bible contains a huge number of prophecies which have been fulfilled throughout history. I listed some of these in an earlier post (#542). No-one in this thread has, as of yet, attempted to nullify this evidence. It seems they prefer to ignore it.
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njaohnt, you do realize that the devil or Satan is a concept completely made up by Christians around 3 to 4 hundred CE don't you?
There are numerous references to and descriptions of Satan in the new testament, which was written in the first century AD.
For example:
1 John 3: 8
Ephesians 2: 1-2
Revelation 3: 9
John 8: 44
Acts 5: 3
2 Corinthians 2: 10-11
2 Corinthians 11: 14
James 3: 14-15
2 Thessalonians 2: 9-10
1 John 3: 10
Acts 13:10
2 Timothy 2: 25-26
I asked for the ones which are repeatable for statistical validation and demonstration - if there are countless examples it should be pretty straightforward to provide us an example.
Miracles are, almost by definition, not repeatable. I would be very surprised to find a miracle that can be repeated.
If you are looking for an example of any miracle though, I have given one in post 531 of this thread (and further explained in post 542):
http://www.sciencefo...d/page__st__520
This type of miracle is obviously not able to be repeated for scientific analysis - you either beleive the people who tell you about it, or you don't.
The prior probability of a resurrection after 3 days is incredibly low, so for us to have a decent chance of it being true, we must have unbelievably good evidence for it (via Bayes's Theorem).
This page argues against the need for extraordinary evidence:
http://carm.org/extr...dinary-evidence
And these pages give evidence for the resurrection.
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I asked you to be specific, though (about evidence.) This, however, is still quite vague. Would you be so kind as to elaborate with detail?
Well, there is the miracle I described in post #531, and I did give one example of a fulfilled bible prophecy in post #539. However, I will list a few more. I've checked, and all of these either have been fulfilled (most) or else they clearly will be in the near future (the last 2.)
Amos 9: 7-15. Outlines the destruction of the nation Israel, but says that its people will not be totally destroyed. They will instead be scattered "among all the nations." During this time the walls and ruins of Jerusalem will be rebuilt. Then a time will come when the people will be brought back from exile, and never again be "uprooted" from their land.
Jeremiah 25: 8-14. Israel and its surrounding nations will be defeated by Nebuchadnezzar and the "peoples of the north." They will serve Babylon for seventy years. After the seventy years, Babylon will be punished for its crimes, and then they themselves shall be defeated and made to serve other nations. The Babylonian empire will be destroyed forever.
Matthew 24: 1-2. The temple in Jerusalem will be destroyed completely. Not even one stone will be left upon another.
Luke 19: 41-44. Jesus says that because the people of Jerusalem have rejected Him, the city will be surrounded by enemies and destroyed.
Daniel 9: 24-26. At the time this prophecy was written, many of the Jews were in captivity in Babylon. Jerusalem and its temple had been destroyed by the Babylonians. Daniel says that the people will return to Jerusalem and rebuild. Later an 'Anointed One' (Jesus) will come, but will be rejected and killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing. Then a ruler will come with his armies and again destroy Jerusalem and the temple (as in Luke 19 41-44.)
Micah 3: 12. Jerusalem will be destroyed, the temple hill will become a mound overgrown with thickets, and Mt Zion will be ploughed like a field.
Nahum 3. The city of Nineveh will be destroyed with fire (verse 15) and many casualties (verse 3,) and never recover (verse 19.) Their guards will flee like a swarm of locusts in the sun (verse 17.)
Nahum 1: 10. The people of Nineveh will be drunk when they are defeated.
Matthew 24:14. The gospel will be preached in every nation of the world.
Luke 21: 33. The words of Jesus will never be forgotten.
Individually, these prophecies may not seem like strong evidence. But considering that the bible is full of similar prophecies, and taking into account the existence of miracles and the fact that many millions of Christians (including myself) have experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit, a strong case can be made for the existence of God.
I also must say, what you're describing in post 531 as "miracles" are much better explained as coincidences to which you've attached personal meaning and emotional valence, but coincidences all the same. It is not "evidence" for Jahweh any more than thunder is evidence of Thor.
Jaden - I know this is very difficult to accept, but it almost certainly was just coincidence.
Comparing this miracle to thunder being evidence of Thor is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Anyway, from the way you have written your post, you seem to think that my grandfather narrowly escaped a car accident and then he later attributed this to God. I was quite clear though, in post 531 that this was not the case. Before changing to the wrong lane, my grandfather informed my grandmother of his intentions. He told her not to worry, because it was an instruction from God. He was very clear to her, saying that God had told him to do so. He then changed lanes, and as a result of this he avoided the collision. Since you are persistent in your assertion that it must have been coincidence, I will spell this out to you again. God gave an instruction to my grandfather. My grandfather informed my grandmother of Gods instruction (she has confirmed this.) He then did what God had told him, and as a result of this a collision was avoided and lives were probably saved. This is obviously not just a "coincidence to which you've attached personal meaning and emotional valence," as my grandfather had told my grandmother that it was an instruction from God, before he carried out that instruction thereby preventing a major collision.
You say you prize solid evidence and reject abiogenesis as not yet supported despite the clearly converging lines of research
"Clearly converging lines of research", eh? Scientists are no closer to having any evidence for abiogenesis than they ever have been. All of the experiments done so far have only found further problems, some of which I will explain later in this post.
you reject the cosmic inflation model (big bang) due to lack of "evidence,"
I most certainly do NOT reject the Big Bang Hypothesis! I never said I do. Considering that the universe is known to be expanding, a beginning is inevitable. Something, however, must have caused that beginning. The best explanation physicists can give is that our universe was 'spat out' by some kind of multi-verse which can randomly create other universes. This multi-verse, however, has absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever. The only explanation for the cause of creation of the universe that even has indirect, circumstantial evidence is the Creator God of the Christian Bible. The prophecies and miracle which I have explained in this post are evidence for that God.
God is never a "best explanation." It's a cop-out... a place holder of the gap until rational and reasonable people provide a valid answer.
Considering that there is evidence for a God who created life and the universe, and there is no evidence for either abiogenesis, or a universe spawning multi-verse, or for any other theory which attempts to explain the existence of life or the universe, I think we can safely say that God is the best explanation. He is in fact the only explanation with any supporting evidence at all.
As for God being a place holder of the "gap" in our collective scientific understanding, I think I should point out that this "gap" is no longer getting any smaller... It is actually increasing as we learn of things such as a beginning of the universe, and the requirements necessary for abiogenesis to occur.
Thanks for the link. I have watched a few of these videos (many hours of them), but I must admit that I haven't yet watched all of them due to lack of time. However, in the ones that I did watch, there was a lot of speculation but no real evidence to support abiogenesis. If you do believe that there is evidence in these videos, then please be specific with which videos and how far into them. The closest thing to evidence in the videos that I watched was that amino acids have been found in asteroids. However, while they were quick to point out that they found over 70 different amino acids, they failed to mention that those 70 only included about half of the amino acids necessary for life as we know it. The same applies to the amino acids which were created in the laboratory experiments. They also neglected to mention that amino acids are chiral. Amino acids cannot form proteins unless they are homochiral - all of them - and there is no conceivable mechanism by which amino acids could become homochiral. Also, nucleosides found in RNA (cytosine, uracil, adenine and guanine) do not form outside of living cells. Pyramidine nucleosides (cytosine and uracil) are not found in outer space either. DNA and RNA cannot form without enzymes, nor can ribose, and enzymes cannot form without RNA templates and ribosomes.
Not only is abiogenesis without evidence, it actually appears to be impossible. God, on the other hand, seems logical (as evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of the worlds population beleive in a god or gods) and does have supporting evidence. Nevertheless, I'm sure athiests will continue to insist that abiogenesis is the superior theory.
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1. Jesus
2. Muhammed
3. Confucious
4. Buddha
5. Moses
6. Christopher Columbus
7. Karl Marx
8. Sir Isaac Newton
9. Paul of Tarsus
10. Abraham Lincoln
11. Adolf Hitler
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Chad, I can see a major problem with your statement...
Female Homo sapiens have been around at least 50,000+ years longer than the males.
Humans cannot reproduce asexually. So how then do you propose that we survived for over 50,000 years without the ability to reproduce?
Do you think that women, for over 50,000 years, reproduced asexually to produce other women? And then one of them somehow spawned man?
This would be completely illogical, even impossible.
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Why are some men a lot stronger, energetic and healthier than others?
I mean some men are able to work 10 hours every day, driving long distances and rushing about from city to city without having to eat a lot of food at all and are still strong and energetic while other men, like me, are a lot weaker physically and need to eat and sleep a lot more.
I also realized that some men have a pretty high pain tolerance and are not afraid to get injured or even get killed while other men, like me, are pretty sensitive to pain (I have a very low pain tolerance) and are more easily injured.
What is the biological or physical explanation for this, if there is any at all?
It's just a combination of genetics, diet, health and mental attitude.
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Hi,
FREQUENCY Can anyone give me an idea about where to find aprogram for modifying THE FREQUENCY RESPONSE of a wooden article? I guess yougot my question right? Can anyone please help? Thanks: I have a patent. I amlooking for a site that can help me to sell the patent for free
Thanks
Sorry, I don't understand the question.
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Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:34-39)
Also this: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
And this: "Know, recognize, and understand therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, Who keeps covenant and steadfast love and mercy with those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations." (Deuteronomy 7:9)
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If anyone who wished to be a subversive were to join, how would screening identify them? They are joining under false pretenses. Why would they answer truthfully to questions that would identify them?
Agreed, they would not. There may be some though who genuinely wish to serve the US military, but who may have divided loyalties when placed in certain circumstances (even if it would be rather unusual.) I was just trying to point out that the military officials who decided to have this test may have reasons other than the obvious.
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I wonder what the purpose of this testing is? The military should not discriminate between peaceful religious and non-religious soldiers, but I can understand that they may not want to have, for example, Islamic extremists amongst their ranks when they are fighting against the Taliban.
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To what evidence specifically are you referring?
I was referring mainly to the numerous prophecies in the bible which have been fulfilled throughout history, and some of the miracles I have heard about.
If there are, many of us here would love to hear them. Thus far all reasons offered through the various threads here from the various believers amount to little more than, "I believe because I want to." That's not really a logical reason to accept such an extraordinary claim as true, but I welcome correction from you on this point.
Please read post #531 above.
Your inability to believe has no bearing on reality.
there is in fact some very good scientific evidence to back up abiogenesis
Of course my inability to believe something doesn't affect reality. However, the reason I am unable to believe in abiogenesis is because I have yet to find any good evidence to support this theory, or even to show that it is possible for all of the neccesary amino acids (which are required to form the proteins found in living cells) to form in naturally occuring conditions, or even in laboratory conditions outside of already living organisms. And I have spent some considerable time searching, so if you can show me evidence for this then please do so. Rather, it seems that any amino acids produced would not be able to be used in living cells. (please read this link here: http://www.chick.com.../123/123_01.asp)
You are so far behind the current research on the subject
This is not true. I do not see how you could have derived that I am behind the current research... However if there are any recent discoveries which show good evidence for abiogenesis, or which can explain how the Big Bang occured with real science and without obscure and unproven concepts, then please show them (or else give a link to a website which does.)
just because science cannot at this time explain something doesn't mean God Did it
I agree. But it does mean that God is the best available explanation at the present time. Abiogenesis is unproven, but it is still widely accepted amongst athiests because it is thought to be the most feasible explanation for life. Why should intelligent design not be allowed this same status? My disbelief in abiogenesis is no different than an athiests disbelief in God.
This is a total strawman argument
(Referring to the book at this link: http://www.chick.com.../123/123_01.asp)
If you believe that the author of this book has mis-represented the theory of abiogenesis, then please explain how so that we can discuss the issue.
there is in fact some very good scientific evidence to back up abiogenesis
Please show me this evidence.
The only religious text that contains specific prophecies? you confirmed this how?
There are people from all kinds of faiths, each of them mutually incompatible with yours, whose sacred texts contain prophecies that can be interpreted as being realised
I did not say that the Bible was the only religious text to contain specific prophecies. I said that it was the only religious text to contain specific prophecies which have often historically proven accurate. There is a difference. An example of a fulfilled bible prophecy is Amos 9 8-15. This was written by the prophet Amos in about 750BC, and it's fulfillment was throughout recorded history untill its (arguble) completement in 1948AD. Many other religious texts do contain prophecies, but they are all either unfulfilled, predict things which could easily have been discerned through logic or else are so vague that they could be interpreted however you want to interpret them. This is merely an observation based on my own research, and I welcome you to prove me wrong.
This <"miracle"> is not evidence of anything but coincidence.
If my grandfather had had a sudden, unexplainable urge to drive on the wrong side of the road over that hilltop, which resulted in the avoidance of an accident, then that may have been coincidence. But that is not what happened, he was told to do so by God. This could not have been coincidence.
There are people from all kinds of faiths...whose adherents can attest to countless miracles at the hands of their own religious icons
All of these miracles, at least those that I have heard about, can easily be attributed to either coincidence or to the placebo effect; the example I have given (in post #531) cannot.
And I've heard of many people of many different religions also having such moments of clarity as have many non believers too, this is not evidence of anything other than something you believe you felt.
I would not decribe it as a moment of "clarity." I knew that the Spirit of God was with me. But regardless of whether or not others claim to have had similar experiences, it was still a convincing moment for me personally. I do not claim that this is scientifically valid proof of what I believe, but I was merely stating my reasons for belief, as was the purpose of this thread. This encounter helped to inspire in me a faith that goes deeper than mere reasoning.
There are people from all kinds of faiths...who can claim personal revelation that their god is the true god. Clearly, only one of these thousands of gods could be real, which necessitates that the majority of these experiences must be explicable by natural phenomena. However, if we must already accept that these experiences can be accounted for naturally, it is extremely likely that all such experiences of all faiths are natural deceptions, and there is no logical reason to believe - however convincing your experiences were - that your god is the one, true god.
I cannot prove to you that my experience was real; therefore you cannot know with certainty that I am being truthful. Likewise, the people of other religions cannot prove that the experiences they claim to have are real; therefore neither of us can know that they are real. The only experience that I know with any certainty to be real is my own. Therefore your statement that this "necessitates that the majority of these experiences must be explicable by natural phenomena" is effectively meaningless, from my perspective.
and there is no logical reason to believe - however convincing your experiences were - that your god is the one, true god.
This particular reason is applicable only to me personally, and to people who have had similar experiences, but the miracle testimonies and especially the (uniquely) clear, specific and accurate prophecies found in the bible are valid logical reasons for anyone to choose Christianity over the many other religions.
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In the end of the day you either choose to believe in God or you don't
This statement may be true for many people, but I have never chosen to believe in God.
Belief for me is not something that can be chosen, it is the result of looking at evidence and forming opinions based on that evidence.
logic has not much to do with it.
Would you not agree from my post above that there can be logical reasons for a belief in God?
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There is no rational justification in my opinion because there simply is no God or at least no caring God and anyone who says otherwise is just a damn liar.
Would you care to provide any reasons for your opinion?
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What is your justification for believing in a God?
To go with the flow?
To congregate with a "responsible" group of people?
Because of a spiritual or God experience you had?
To find a "good" girl?
Because you were just raised that way?
Because it just makes sense, in a philosophical sort of way?
Just to be on the safe side?
Because it was written?
I have many reasons for my belief in God. My main reasons now are different to what my main reasons were a few years ago.
When I first came to believe in a god, it was because I did not (and I still don't) believe that the universe and everything in it, especially life, could have formed without a creator.
Almost all scientists agree that the universe is not infinite or eternal, but had a begginning (the Big Bang.) They try to invent plausible theories as to what caused the Big Bang, which usually involve parallel universes etc, but while they may have been possible, none of these have ever seemed convincing to me. I found that the idea of a Creator seemed much more logical, and easier to believe than many of the ideas involved in these theories. So I decided that the most likely cause of the creation of this universe was that it was made by a "God" of some sort.
Also, I have found that science cannot explain how life originally formed. I understand the theories of evolution and abiogenesis, and I do believe that evolution occurs as a natural process, and given enough time could result in variation in species such as we see today (except for many systems which are far too complex to have evolved - but lets not go into that now) assuming that life already existed. However, the problem is that living cells could not have evolved from non-living material. This is the url of a website which contains the first chapter of a book which explains why, if you are interested:
http://www.chick.com.../123/123_01.asp The first few paragraphs are almost irrelevant to the matter, but further down the page it gives very compelling reasons (particularly in the amino acids and proteins sections.) So, the existence of life as we know it seems to defy any reasonable scientific explanation - which for me was another reason to believe that there is an intelligent creator, ie a God, somewhere out there. But there was still the question of which God, as there are so many religions in the world.
I found that the Christian bible was the only religious text to contain specific prophecies, which have often historically proven accurate. This for me was quite surprising - that a religious book had foretold events hundreds, and sometimes even thousands of years before they occured. You can do your own research if you disagree or if you don't believe me. This is real evidence that there is a God, and also that the Christian God is the true God.
I have also spoken to people who have experienced miracles first-hand. For example, my Christian grandparents were driving together up a hill, and as they were approaching the top they were unable to see the other side of the hill. My grandfather was told by God to drive on the other side of the road, where there could have been unseen cars coming towards them from the other side of the hilltop! He trusted God, and told my grandmother that they were going to drive on the wrong side of the road over the hilltop. So he changed to the lane of the oncoming traffic, and as they drove over the hilltop another car came speeding over, which was also in the wrong lane, which would have collided head-on with my grandparents had they not listened to God but stayed in their correct lane!
So between the scientific/philosophical arguments, the prophetic evidence in the Bible, and the miracles I have heard about, I think I have some pretty good reasons to believe in God and the bible.
But the main reason why I now have the faith that I do is because of my own personal experience with the Holy Spirit. One night I asked God to reveal Himself to me, and He did.
I don't know how to decribe the experience in words, but the best way I can think of is that the Spirit gave me a powerful sense of wholeness/love/peace for that time.
So, to answer your question Realitycheck, those are my best 4 reasons to justify my belief in God.
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Do I lose entropy when I learn something and gain entropy when I forget it?
Assuming the brain uses some kind of chemical structure to store memory (I'm not sure how memory works) then learning would involve a decrease in entropy as the chemicals become more ordered/structured. Forgetting something would not mean a gain in entropy, as it only means your brain can no longer access that memory. The memory itself is never "gone," only lost.
Does something exist if it can't be measured, counted, weighed, timed . . . ?
Yes. For example emotion, instinct, habits etc can't be "measured" as such, but they still exist.
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Hi,
I'm doing an expiriment to determine the average rate at which the hypochlorite concentration of bleach decreases with exposure to air.
I am adding weak sulfuric acid and pottasium iodide to a known volume of diluted bleach, and then titrating with sodium thiosulfate (which I have previously standardised) untill a colour change occurs (having added starch indicator close to the end-point.) I now have the data of the number of moles of sodium thiosulfate required, but I am unsure how to calculate the number of moles of sodium hypochlorite in the sample. Could someone please give me the ratio of thiosulfates to hypochlorites, and the equation(s) to show the ratio?
Any help would be appreciated.
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I have studied the prophecies in question (about Tyre and Egypt) and conclude that they were indeed not fulfilled as they were stated. Therefore they are not evidence of God's existence and the bible's authenticity. However, it does not mean that Ezekiel and Isaiah were false prophets because:
Jeremiah 18:7-10:
If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
This announcement by the prophet Jeremiah contradicts my sources assumption that "If the prophet was not completely correct 100% of the time he is a false prophet." (sorry, I can't remove the Bold and Italics)
Perhaps a part of the people of Tyre (and Egypt also) repented under the threat of Nebuchadnezzar's forces, and it's destruction was delayed while those people were there. For God has said, in Genesis chapter 18, that He would not destroy Sodom for the sake of ten good people. Surely Tyre and Egypt would be the same. This may seem a weak argument, however it means that the prophets could still be genuine, and even one detailed prophecy which has undoubtedly been fulfilled would outweigh the unlikelihood of people in both Tyre and Egypt repenting. So, I'll go into detail with some of the other prophecies when I have some time, in search of one or more that can prove the truth of the Bible.
Did you notice how they slipped in the "modern science" with one hand while the other was waving to distract you from the fact that they just got you to accept their numbers without actually reading any of the scriptures for accuracy? This is a logical fallacy called Begging the Question. Their argument's premise already assumes their conclusions are true.
No, I didn't even read over it properly at the time
, but I can see it now. It seems that in the future I'll need to choose better sources for my info.0 -
Thank you for your reply, that is rather interesting. I'll have to do some further research.
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It's just in my eyes, the laws of physics cannot support any "god". But it is said "god" is something that exists outside of the laws of physics. God made man in his image? So atoms? Molecules? The thing is with this is that for every answer (for or against) has a counter answer. A discussion on this will be a loop.
**quote (not sure how to get them on separate lines)
I'm not quite sure what you mean by asking if I took in the digging a hole part.
**quote
Well do you understand what it represents?
I agree that any scientific discussion on the topic would result in a "loop."
And yes I do understand the concept of your "digging a hole" metaphor.
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There are none that were not translated to be such after the fact. In short there are no prophecies in any religious text that has predicted anything to happen that did indeed happen before it happened.. none...
This is simply not true. The Book of Ezekiel, for example, was written between 593 and 571 BC, and some of the prophecies within it are still being fulfilled today. Not all of them are vague either, some are very specific.
These are only a few examples of biblical prophecy, there are many more (about 1000 from memory) although some are slightly vague and may be open to interpretation (however these examples are very plain) . They should give people something to discuss, though, as was the intention of this thread. So if you have any specific objections to the accuracy of these prophecies, please state them.
Please note that this is not my work. Because I'm short on time, I've just copied material from this website:
http://home.surewest...ce/prophecy.htm
The views of it's author are not necessarily my views.
BIBLE
PROPHECIES
One of the strongest objective evidences of Biblical inspiration if the phenomenon of fulfilled prophecy. The bible is essentially unique among the religious books of mankind in this respect. Some of them contain a few vague forecasts, but nothing comparable to the vast number of specific prophecies found in the Bible. The same is true of modern "prophets", so-called. Such seers as Nostradamus, Jean Dixon, and others have made many predictions, but often they are nebulous and capable of various meanings. A few of their prophecies seem to have been fulfilled in a general way, but most of the have completely failed.(1/181)
Prophets, to be legitimate, must stand the test of time. If the prophet was not completely correct 100% of the time he is a false prophet. Prophecy, to be valid, must predate the event; must be precise enough so as to not be vague; must have enough events described to be beyond human ability to calculate or manipulate; in other words not be something that man could do, without God's guidance.
Only God knows the future. He is able to "call the things that are not, as though they were" (Romans 4:17). He declares "the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done." (Isaiah 46:10; Acts 15:18). If one can demonstrate the ability to the future things that find exact fulfillment, it would follow logically that such a person, in possession of this gift, would be speaking on the behalf of God. His message therefore, would be valid. (3/81-82)
Scholars suggest that there are about 1,000 prophecies altogether in the Bible --- some 800 in the Old Testament and about 200 in the New Testament. (3/82) It must be noted carefully that the gift of prophecy --- clearly operative during those by-gone ages where the Biblical documents were being prepared and validated as God's Word --- was terminated near the end of the first century AD, when the New Testament was completed (1 Corinthians 13:8-10) There are many religions today that claim to have "prophets", but remember for a prophet to be from God there can be no errors, ever! That lets all of the "prophets" since the first century out.
PROPHECIES FULFILLED BY JESUS CHRIST
The Old Testament, written over a 1,000 year period, contains over 300 references to the coming Messiah. All of these were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and they established a solid confirmation of His credentials as the Messiah; the Anointed One (King; Priest; Saint); Intercessor (to release or deliver; help; meet; seek; accompany).
Many of the prophecies concerning the messiah were totally beyond human control:
Birth: Place, time, manner of.
Death: Peoples reactions, piercing of side, burial
Resurrection: Where did His body go?
By using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight of these prophecies --- the chance that any man might have lived to fulfill all eight prophecies is one in one hundred trillion!
To illustrate this: If we take 100 trillion silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas, they would be two feet deep. Now we mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly --- all over the state. Now blindfold a man and let him travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick only one silver dollar. What chance would he have of picking the right one? The same chance that the prophets would have of writing just eight of these prophecies and having them all come true for any one man --- if they had written them without God's inspiration!
The chance of any one man fulfilling all of 48 prophecies is one in 10 to the 157 power. The electron is about as small an object as we can imagine. if we had a cubic inch of these electrons and tried to count them, it would take us (at 250 per minute) 19,000 time 19,000 time 19,000 years to count them. Now mark one of them, and thoroughly stir it into the whole mass. What chance does our blindfolded man have of finding the right electron? --- The same chance as one man of fulfilling 48 of the prophecies about Christ, without being the Son of God!
Jesus Christ fulfilled every prophecy written about the coming Messiah --- over three hundred of them! Would that have been possible had He not been the Son of God?
Here is a short listing of some of the hundreds of prophecies concerning Christ:
Linage Genesis 3:15; 9:26: 22:18; 26:4; 28:14; 49:10; 2 & Samual 7:12-16
Son of God Psalm 2:6-7
Virgin birth Isaiah 7:14
Birthplace Micah 5:2
Piercing of side Zechariah 12:10
Darkness Psalm 22:2
Vinegar Psalm 69:21
Mocking Psalm 22:6-8
Nakedness Psalm 22:17
Gambling for clothes Psalm 22:18
Unbroken bones Psalm 34:20
Burial Isaiah 53:9
Resurrection Psalm 16:10; Hosea 6:2; Psalm 30:3,9; Isaiah 53:10
Assention to right hand of God Psalm 110:1; 68:18; Proverbs 30:4; 24:3-10
HHHhhhh
OTHER HISTORICAL PROPHESIES
In addition to the hundreds of Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled in the past, there are a special class of predictions that focus on the events of what the Scriptures call "the last days", "the latter times", or other similar expressions. These prophecies also provide further evidence of Biblical inspiration, since many of them are being fulfilled right before our eyes! As more and more of these ancient predictions are seen coming to pass, the evidence for the Divine origin of the Bible is made stronger all the time.
THE RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL
The most important of these end-time prophecies, the re-establishment of Israel as a nation in it's ancient homeland. That a nation could be completely destroyed as an organized entity by an invading army (by the Romans in 70 AD), it's people either slaughtered or scattered from one end of the world to the other, it's lands occupied and ruled by aliens for over 1900 years. Yet Israel survived as a distinct nationality, and then finally regained its homeland and became recognized as a viable nation once more by the other nations of the world. (1/191)
Seems impossible? Even so, it was predicted to happen many centuries before it happened. Jesus Himself predicted the fall of Jerusalem in Luke 19:43-44, "The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." Deuteronomy 28:64 prophesies "Then the Lord will scatter you among the nations from one end of the earth to the other." Jesus again predicts in Luke 21:24, "They will fall by the sword and will be taken prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.".
The Jews began to return to Palestine in small numbers in the early part of the twentieth century, and then in much larger numbers after World War I. After World War II the Israeli nation was re-established in part in 1948, and in 1967 in the "six-day war" Israel recaptured the "old city" of Jerusalem. Amazingly, Jerusalem is now completely under Jewish control, except for one spot. This is on Mount Moriah where the Arabs have built their famous Dome-of-the-Rock, the second most holy place in the Muslim world. The Jews for political or other reasons have not yet dared to expel the Arabs from this site, raze it, and proceed to rebuild their temple, as they must want to do. (1/192-193) "Last Days Prophecy" is being fulfilled right before our eyes!
TYRE
In the 26th chapter of Ezekiel (592-570 BC) seven things are predicted to happen to the city of Tyre:
1) Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the mainland of Tyre (Ezekiel 26:8).
2) Many nations against Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3).
3) Make her a bare rock; flat like the top of a rock (Ezekiel 26:4).
4) Fishermen will spread their nets over the site (Ezekiel 26:5).
5) Throw the debris into the water (Ezekiel 26:12).
6) Never be rebuilt (Ezekiel 26:14).
7) Never be found again (Ezekiel 26:21) (2/285)
Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to mainland Tyre three years after the prophecy and after a 13 year siege (585-573 BC) Tyre made terms and acknowledged Babylonian authority over them (4 xxii.452) When Nebuchadnezzar broke the gates down, he found the city almost empty. The majority of the people had moved by ship to an island about 1/2 miles off the coast and fortified a city there. The mainland city was destroyed in 573 BC, as predicted. The city of Tyre on the island remained a powerful city for several hundred years. (2/286)
Alexander the Great, in his war on Persia, marching southward called on each city to open their gates to him, as part of his plan to deny the use to the Persian fleet. Tyre refused to do so, and Alexander laid siege to the city. Possessing no fleet, he demolished old Tyre, on the mainland, and with the debris built a causeway 200 feet wide across the straits separating the old and new towns, erecting towers and war engines at the farther end. (4/xxii. 452) Tyre continually raided the causeway with fire-ships greatly retarding progress, until Alexander pressured conquered subjects to make ships for his operation. After attaining a superior naval force, Alexander finished the causeway, battered the walls of Tyre down killed eight thousand of the inhabitants and sold thirty thousand into slavery. (5/153)
A history book by a secular historian reads, "Alexander the Great ... reduced Tyre to ruins... The larger part of the site of the once great city is now bare as the top of a rock --- a place where fishermen now spread their nets to dry." (5/55)
Another historian, John C. Beck, says, "The history of Tyre does not stop with after the conquest of Alexander. Men continue to rebuild her and armies continue to besiege her walls, until finally after sixteen hundred years, she falls never to be rebuilt again." (6/41)
All the prophecies of Ezekiel about Tyre have come true: Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre; Many nations were against Tyre; Alexander made her a bare rock and threw debris into the water to make the causeway; fishermen now spread nets over the site; (there is a city of Tyre today, but it is located down the coast from the original Tyre) the old city of Tyre has never been rebuilt, even though a great freshwater spring are located at the site, providing 10,000,000 gallons daily. It is still an excellent site today but has never been rebuilt, although many have tried. All seven of the predictions came true in the minutest detail.
Some others examples of fulfilled Bible prophecy about history:
Sidon (Ezekiel 28:22-23);
Samaria (Hosea 13:16 & Micah 1:6);
Gaza-Ashkelon (Amos 1:8; Jeremiah 47:5; Zephaniah 2:4);
Moab-Ammon (Ezekiel 25:3-4; Jeremiah 48:47 & 49:6);
Petra-Edom (Isaiah 34:6-15; Jeremaih 49:17-18; Ezekiel 25:13-14 & 35:57);
Thebes-Memphis (Ezekiel 30:13-15);
Nineveh (Nahum 1:8-10; 2:6; 3:10; 3:13; 3:19);
Babylon (Daniel 2,7; Isaiah 13:19-22; 14:23;
Jeremiah 51:26 & 43);
Chorazin-Bethsaida-Capernaum (Matthew 11:20-24 );
Jerusalem Enlargement (Jeremiah 31:38-40); and finally
Palestine (Leviticus 26:31-33 & Ezekiel 36:33-35), where the events are happening before our eyes!
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...just the OP quoted.
Okay. I was just unsure as it would have made sense if you were referring to either of us
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Consequences of No God...
in Religion
Posted · Edited by Jaden
The old testament law is very draconian - it shows that even the smallest of sins are still sins, and are worthy of punishment. It shows us that we can never be worthy of God. The new testament, however, teaches mercy and forgiveness. (for example in John 8 1-12.) Jesus does not condemn sinners before their time of judgement, and neither should we.
Yes, that's right. If one does not believe in a God, then morality would be decided by the individual. However, people can have very different perceptions of morality, and what one person might consider to be a heinous act may be considered perfectly ok by somebody else. We as individuals do sometimes need a moral guide. For most people, that guidance is provided by the general consensus of society. The general consensus of our society, currently, is strongly influenced by Christian traditions and principles. However, if religion were to be eliminated by science, then society as a whole would lose it's moral guide. With the removal of the order which was provided by Christianity, and a collection of differing individual opinions now shaping "morality", who could know the outcome?
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point
You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that it is correct, and this thread is not the place to debate the issue.
Anyway, I was referring more to the idea of an all knowing God, and the effect that that can have on people. If someone believes that God is watching over them, then this belief will surely be more powerful than any law set by a government.