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Hello, Consciousness/ is considered puzzling. For example our subjective feeling and perception e.g. of pain and colors (Qualia). First I want to deal with other special features (where a new logic, layer logic, might help us): 1) There is hardly anything more present and conscious than our subjective perceptions  how does this work? 2) Nevertheless, we cannot perceive each other at all. How and why are they so subjective? 3) Intersubjectively we only perceive bodies (via our sensory organs). Why the path through the senses? 4) There seems to be a coupling between our mind and our body. 5) Similar to the body, the subjective mind appears to be spatially isolated. Physical bodies can mostly interact with physical bodies in principle, that means they are perceptible to one another. It seems to be different with minds: We just seem to perceive our own mind all others are not immediately perceptible to us, and bodies don't react directly to other minds, both make some doubt about the existence of minds. The layer logic offers an explanation: If the bodies belong to a finite layer k and the minds to the layer infinity, then the following layer rules apply: Layers are blind to themselves and upwards, i.e. Properties in a stage can only be properties at a lower layer. This would explain the blindness of the minds to each other. That bodies from the same layer k can interact with each other requires an additional rule from the layer logic perspective: If two objects from the same layer k meet, they can interact if afterwards all objects go to layer k + 1. Since layer k is practically resolved here, the flow of information can be seen in such a way that information from layer k changes to layer k + 1, so that the hierarchical principle of layer logic, which allows freedom from contradictions, is preserved. Also for the conscious perception of your own mind in the infinity layer a special rule is necessary: If the mind is locked "inward" and "outward" is not directly effective, he can perceive himself without giving contradictory information to the outside. The mindbody coupling (with us humans probably via the nervous system) connects layer infinity with layer k. The mind can probably directly take up information from layer k, without changing them. Conversely, to give information from the mind to the body a complex model is required without violating layer hierarchies: When there is a quantum effect in the nervous system and it e.g. there are three possible target quanta that could be chosen physically at random, then the mind can specifically change that choice, but only choose such options that would have been physically possible. So the mind from level Infinite can intervene in levels k and k + 1, without risking contradictions from his informational advantage from level infinity, because what the body does at its instigation he could have done "naturally" without a mind (accidentally). A "free" mind without a body would have two problems: 1. He could not "experience" anything, since the Infinite layer cannot perceive himself without selfisolation, so he would have no feelings / perceptions  he would be "deaf". 2. It could not do anything, would be "silent", because it could neither act at infinity layer nor at layer k. Elsewhere, I speculated that gravitation is the interaction of the mind. So he could influence other minds (and the bodies attached to them) gravitationally by spacetime curvature  so he would be "heavy". Dark matter could be such "free or pure minds". Since gravity can work for all physical objects, I assume that these are linked to mind objects. I don't know how a consciousness arises from such preconscious mind objects. In the case of reproduction, this could also be done via the parents' spirits, but the first consciousness must have come from somewhere. It is interesting that, according to my theory, consciousness has a similar distribution needed inside and outside like the living cell. I approached the whole thing from the (unpopular) dualistic perspective, but that's how I experience my mind and body. The layer logic is a bit farther there, but it helps with a surprising number of questions and has few advocates besides me ... Link to layer logic: https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_this_a_new_valid_logic_And_what_does_layer_logic_mean In German (with more details): https://www.philosophieraum.de/index.php/Thread/28199StufenlogikTrestonereloadedVortragAPC/ Does this help to understand "mind"  and what more is to be added? Yours Trestone

layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello studiot, I do not know all about layer logic and layer arithmetics, as I just made some definitions to have a layer atrithmetic  but I have no practice in using it. I looked if with layer logic a solution for your Chinese problem would be possible with natural numbers (and different layers)  but I do not know enough of layer arithmetics. Within one layer the solution is the same as in classical arithmetic and we get three integer fractions as solutions, but we learn nothing about layers this way, as there are the same rules for arithmetics within one layer as in classical arithmetic. Yours Trestone 
layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello, I found a link on English to Prof. Ulrich Blau´s work (numbers, paradoxes and relexion logic) (there are not many): (It is formally more correct then my work, but really "hard stuff", most about regions of infinity that my layer logic no longer needs) https://books.google.de/books?id=Xg6QpedPpcsC&pg=PA311&lpg=PA311&dq=Reflexion+logic+Ulrich+Blau&source=bl&ots=HZNNGnEARu&sig=ACfU3U2Hunv0FZTcdq9T5TDfVa7XArq9VA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjf9ZSVnczpAhVERxUIHXhHAp44ChDoATALegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=Reflexion%20logic%20Ulrich%20Blau&f=false Yours Trestone 
layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello studiot, it is ok to be puzzled by layer logic. I myself was puzzled for years and still am in some questions. When constructing propositions like the layer liar, the connection between layers is easy and clear. And the use of recursions helps to connect truth values of different layers. (And layer logic helps with induction/recursion, as there is always a "free" start with "all propositions have truth value undefined in layer 0") But I am not sure if we have such connections between layers for all propositions. If there are layers in the (logical) world, they could be also independent from each other. So a layer could be like a world of its own. There is a hierarchy with the layers, but this does not mean, that a truth value in a higher layer is “more true” or “more important” than a truth value of a lower level. All “exist” simultanously and equally. As we all perceive a similar world and do seldom discuss if there is an object or not (for example because of different properties in different layers) we all seem to live in the same layer, at least with our perception. As layers increase with cause and effect, this layer is dynamic. That was one of the reasons why I believed, that there is one layer for the whole universe, and that it increases with every interaction (except gravitation) of objects in it. I have learned to give a layer to every observer frame system. But here we have left the reign of pure logic and changed to human perceiption and physics. In your chinese problem I do not see the “12 layers”? If a solution in natural numbers is looked for, the last line could be connected to layer logic: 4y + 8 z = 39 . Classical the left side is even, the right side not. In the arithmetic of layer logic, a number can be even in one layer and not even in another, so there could be a layer were there exists a solution in natural numbers. (But I do not know numbers, that are even and not even in layers – and I have not solved the puzzle.) All in all layer logic is in some respects similar to the “ Many World Theory”, but I hope not too much, as I like this theory not at all. Yours Trestone Hello Dord, I think parts of classical logic were developed in ancient Greek for speaking at court and searching for truth. As there is not “one truth” in layer logic (but one for each layer), it could help to be more open minded and to tolerate even contradictory statements. But I do not think that layer logic will help us in real live with witnesses at court: I believe, that all humans are “in” the same layer when perceiving, so the differences do not come by different layers but different people. And humans are a greater mystery then logic... Yours Trestone 
layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello, in my definitions for layer logic a statement does not belong to a layer, but is independent of all layers. The statements have a truth value in each layer (sometimmes different in layers) and are mostly defined by recursion. An example is the (layer) liar L: For all t= 0,1,2, ...: The liar L is true in layer t+1 if it is not true in layer t – and false in layer t+1 else. The layer truth vector of a layer statement is an infinite vector for t=0,1,2,3,... . For the liar L it is (undefined, true, false, true, false, ...) The same is with layer algorithems or programms P, they are independent or comprehensive of layers  and can stop in one layer t and not stop in an other t+1. It is possible, that a Halting programm H exists, that gives a true in layer t+1 for every layer programm P, if P stops in layer t with input X. (Important: The same H will give a true ore false for P and X for layer t+2). So I think that there are not infinite Halting programms in layer logic. (But of course I do not have H explicitely) Yours Trestone Hello studiot, in the TAOTECHING (Lao Tzu) is the saying: “A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step”. May be layer logic and “layer model' in computing have this one step together. But then the journey in my eyes goes different ways: In layer logic I have infinite layers (0,1,2,3,...) and a strict hierarchy of layers: In a lower (or equal) layer no information of a higher layer is accesible, they are “blind” for all above. And the truth values in the layers are recursivly used to define the truth values of a layer statement for all layers, so layer statements are independent of layers (= defined for all layers). And mainly of course it is a logic. Layer logic has four fathers:  Classic proposional logic (at least 65 % are the same)  Threevalued logic (Łukasiewicz logic) (using three truth values, 5%)  The Logic of reflection by Prof. Ulrich Blau (using layers, only for reflecting proposals, 10%)  Layer Logic of Trestone (expanding layers to all proposals, layer set theory, 20%) It can be used very similar to classical logic: For logic itself, for doing set theory and math, for computer science, for philosophy, for physics and other science (or here for fiction). Yours, Trestone 
layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hallo strange, my proof is finished at the line: “So there could be a holding program H with layer logic.” Your quote " The next processing layer ... It would be labeled t + r (t)." is part of later speculations. I did not solve the Halting problem but proofed, that with layer logic the proof of the Halting problem is no longer valid. In logical and mathematical layer logic I only use finite layers. The infinite layer (with layer logic there is only one infinity) I use for philosophy and there as layer of the mind. How nature and math are connected (for example pickets and natural numbers) I do not know, but some kind of connection there seems to be. And a logic that would have no connection to our reality/nature would be a strange and not very useful thing. (Sorry for my unclear and clumsy notation, but my university time is past more than 30 years). Yours Trestone 
layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello Strange, my main point is, to imagine, that classical logic may be not the real logic for our world and to construct an alternative. I found layer logic as a good possiblity. Of course it is very similar to classic logic (that sufficed for 2000 years), and as the meta logic of layer logic I still use classical logic. But with one parameter more (the layers), I can avoid almost all classical logical paradoxes and most indirect proofs are valid no more, even as layer logic does allow indirect proofs (within one layer). Math and computing science are still possible, but they are different in some points. Here a short analysis of the holding problem from computer science and on "layer algorithms" from the view of my “layer logic”: In the layer logic, a new parameter is added to the programs, layer t. A hierarchy applies: If a program wants to evaluate / use a value from another program from layer t, it can only do so at level t + 1 or higher (= t + r). We are looking for a (layer) program H that decides on each program P with (string) input X in layer t + r, whether this ever stops in step t or runs endlessly (e.g. due to a continuous loop). Definition / basic property H (P, X, t + r): The following applies to all programs P and inputs X: IF P (X, t) stops THEN H (P, X, t + r): = true ELSE H (P, X, t + r): = false In this case, r> = 1 must be selected, since layer t (at P) is used when calculating H. More precisely, the next universal layer t + r (t) is to be set (see below). We can now try to understand the classic counterproof of the existence of H (P, X) and have to add the levels: Suppose H (P, X, t + r) exists with the property required above. (This is a hypothesis!) Then we use H to construct a "strange" program S: Definition S (P): The following applies to all P: S (P, t + r + k): = IF H (P, P, t + r) = true THEN loop ELSE S (P, t + r + k) = true; STOP (In contrast to the meta / colloquial formulation at H, S (P) can be written as a real program if the code of H is available. "loop" stands for a continuous loop) Here k> = 1 should be selected, since the layer t + r (at H) is used when calculating S. More precisely, the next universal layer t + r (t) + k (t + r (t)) has to be applied (see below). S therefore uses the result of the holding program when applying a program P to its own source code as input. Now we consider the selfapplication of S, i.e. we take the code for S as input for S S (S, t + r + k) = IF H (S, S, t + r) = true THEN loop ELSE S (S, t + r + k) = true; STOP Since H (S, S, t + r) = true exactly when S (S, t) stops, it is no longer paradoxical or contradictory: S (S, t + k + r) loops when S (S, t) stops and stops when S (S, t) does not stop! The following applies: t + k + r is not equal to t, i.e. two different layer calls from S. So S is a program with different values at different layers, but not necessarily paradoxical. S and H can therefore exist. So there could be a holding program H with layer logic. Why have I left r and k indefinite and not chosen 1 each? Now I suspect that the layer of step programs does not only depend on the subroutines called (they must be larger in each case), but also of the interactions in the universe (= the “layer of the universe " or at least of the “layer of the reference system”😞 My speculation: Every interaction (except through gravitation) increases the layer counter in the universe (also in computers) simultaneously, therefore the layers grow constantly and very quickly (and unfortunately hardly controllable). The next processing layer for layer t can only be narrowed down (at least 1 higher), but do not determine exactly. It would be labeled t + r (t). And we couldn't call computer programs twice with the same parameters ("don't go into the same river twice"), because the universal step counter “flows” constantly, and we cannot enter the step t, but we find it again and again (and higher). (Maybe it could be possible in the event horizon of a Black hole.) If the layer logic applies, then today's computer programs probably only work because they are limited to layerindependent programs, which is only a small part of the conceivable programs. Despite the problems outlined, this does not have to stay that way and maybe one or the other "layer" surprise is also possible in computer science ... E.g. one could refute the "CurchTuring thesis" with layer computers: (i.e. calculate something new): If you implement an algorithm P (X) on a (normal) computer, the current layer t of the universe is implicitly used for each calculation, i.e. the computer calculates P (X, t). When P (X) is recalculated later, it calculates P (X, t + r). If P (X, t) is a stepdependent function, P (x, t) and P (X, t + r) could be different, although classically it should only be one value. Such a function P (X) could be the prime number decomposition of X, which could be layerdependent for "large" X and t. However, the numbers would probably have to be so large that a practical review in this way is not yet possible. Maybe someone will try the experiment anyway or has an idea ... Yours Trestone 
layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello studiot, layer logic is an outsider (mine) theory to logic. About 15 years before me Ptrofessor Ulrich Blau in Munic had similar ideas, he called it “reflexion logic”. For him layers were the times we reflected about a sentence (like the liar L “this sentence is not true”. Layer 0: no reflection. L has the truth value “undefined”. Layer 1: We reflect, that L was undefined in layer 0, therefore it is true. Layer 2: We reflect on our reflection: L is false. Layer 3: L is true. And so on. I defined layers for all kind of logic sentences (proposals). But I do not know so exactly, what my layers are: Are they meta layers of logical speech, layers of causality or a new dimension or something else? Anyway as an idea they open a new look on logik and the world. And most famous proofs as by Cantor and Gödel or Turing are not valid with layer logic anymore. I see no connection to the “layer model” in computing except the name. But perhaps it is interesting for you, that a computer that would use layer logic would not be limitid by the Halting Problem. In the indirect proof we get different layers – and so there is no more a contradiction. Unfortunatelly I do not know how to built a layer computer, so layer logic is more a philosophical theory (and that was what i intended when I started it 15 years ago ...) Yours Trestone 
layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello, here my proof that Cantors diagonalisation ore different infinities are no more valid with layer logic. As All, the set of all sets, is a set in layer theory, it is no surprise, that the diagonalisation of cantor is a problem no more (I just give the main idea, more details in the link below) (t marks the layers, W(x,t) ist the truth value of x in layer t). Be M a set and P(M) its power set and F: M > P(M) a bijection between them (in layer d) Then the set A with W(x e A, t+1) = w := if ( W(x e M,t)=w and W(x e F(x),t)=w ) A is a subset of M and therefore in P(M). So it exists x0 e M with A=F(x0). First case: W(x0 e F(x0),t)=w , then W(x0 e A=F(x0), t+1) = w (no contradiction, as in another layer) Second case: W(x0 e F(x0),t)= w then W(x0 e A=F(x0), t+1) = w (no contradiction, as in another layer) If we have All as M and identity as Bijektion F we get for the set A: W(x e A, t+1) = w := if ( W(x e All,t)=w and W(x e x),t)=w ) = if ( W(x e x),t)=w ) This is the layer Russell set R (I omitted the ´u´value for simplification) and no problem. (R is a regular set in layer set theory). So in layer theory we have just one kind of infinity – and no more Cantor´s paradise … More details at this link: https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/59914layerlogicanewdimension/?tab=comments#comment627045 Yours Ttrestone 64 replies

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Hello joigus, the observerdependency was not my invention, but is a consequence of relativity. From a physical view it is not relevant if observers are “amoebe” or “humans”, as long as they are in the same frame of reference. Of course it would be nice, if we could compute the differences between frames of refernce also for my interaction count – and what consequences this has. As I do not know most consequences of different counts, I am far away from this. (And I do not know, how an amoeba experiences the world). Yours Trestone

Hello swansont, with layer logic math is different. The proofs of Cantor and Gödel are valid no more and also the proof, that the prime factoriztion is unique, as there could be different factorizations in different layers. More details at this link: https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/96134layerlogicalternativeforhumansandaliens/?tab=comments#replyForm (The parts about logic and math are more serious than this speculations about physics, but there nobody answered for a long time) Yours Trestone

Hello Strange. You are right, relativity is a problem to my theory. Perhaps we can assume a universe for every observer. If the observer notices an interaction, the count is increased in his universe. If an other observer does not notice an interaction, the count stays unchanged. So we have a (universal) count for every observer. Wether this approach is working, I do not know. Yours Trestone Hello swansont, I don´t believe that my theory helps to tell electrons apart. Near to the end of my text I described a possible test: „We assume that our computers (with the exception of errors) work independently of time. So if we determine the prime factorization of a large number, the same result should be delivered yesterday, today and tomorrow. Now I was able to show that logic and mathematics may apply (layer logic), where the prime factorization could be layerdependent, and where in reality the layer could correspond to the levels of the interaction counters. So it would be conceivable that if the computer tried again to determine the prime factors of a large number, would suddenly produce different results. Unfortunately, in this experiment we may have to wait until the end of the universe ...” Yours Trestone

Hello, in my research to a new logic I also encountered the following more physical problem: According to my theory it could be that the interaction of two particles was different (or not possible) if both have previously had different interactions (e.g. since the Big Bang or on a pool table). In practice, particles or billiard balls can always interact with each other, no matter how many and different interactions preceded. Ockham's razor therefore says that the interaction stories are not relevant. I counter this with the "pocket knife of my imagination": We can also assume that all interactions in the universe are always counted, and this counter is available universally and simultaneously (= not locally) in the universe. It can only increase, so it has a direction. And only particles with the same interaction counter reading can interact and increase the counter by 1. We see that this counter is very similar to classic Newtonian time. Therefore, I consider it a new dimension of time / impact /interaction. Of course the whole thing would be superfluous if it only explained interactions, for which you don't need it at all. But you can (along with a local time reversal) explain many of the curiosities of quantum theory. First of all, I have to clarify that when interacting gravity (or spacetime curvature) is excluded. One reason is that it is less easy to define. A second is that the physicists have not yet come to equal treatment of the four basic forces and my new extra time could make spacetime difficulties. Since I am not a physicist, we can also say that I separated it “intuitively”. My model for a quantum interaction looks like this: At a starting point (e.g. in front of a double slit) a particle has according to the uncertainty relation, several possibilities to reach target points where interactions could take place. These possibilities explore swarms of "virtual possibility particles". As long as the interaction at the target has not yet taken place, these are not real and can return to the start (with information from the target) inversely in time. At the start, the virtual target information cannot be read. Therefore, one of the options (including the virtual information) is selected blindly (quantum coincidence), this becomes real and triggers an interaction at the goal. This also increases the universal interaction counter by 1. The particle from the start can no longer interact due to the lower counter. (You can also interpret it as "it moved from start to target", however, the possibility paths are not particle paths and can e.g. go through two slits (interference)). Entanglement can also be explained with the interaction counter and inverse possibility particles. Here the virtual information about the polarization filter angle is brought back (time inverse) to the start, after selecting these angles go through and then become real with the interaction at the target (or the two targets) and the counter increases. The time reversal for virtual possibility particles was in these considerations maybe more important than the interaction counter, that makes an interaction real and fixes the result (quantum measurement). But there is also an application in which the influence of the impact counter could be shown more directly: We assume that our computers (with the exception of errors) work independently of time. So if we determine the prime factorization of a large number, the same result should be delivered yesterday, today and tomorrow. Now I was able to show that logic and mathematics may apply (layer logic), where the prime factorization could be layerdependent, and where in reality the layer could correspond to the levels of the interaction counters. So it would be conceivable that if the computer tried again to determine the prime factors of a large number, would suddenly produce different results. Unfortunately, in this experiment we may have to wait until the end of the universe ... I do not want to hide one disadvantage of the interaction counter: Although I allow time travel "on a small scale", "on a large scale" I make it impossible: If my grandfather lived in front of me at interaction counter k, that's how i was born at k + r. So I can only interact with objects with interaction counter k + r or larger, but not with my grandfather in the past at k. So the grandfather murder was murdered. The lottery numbers are similar: If the drawing of the lottery numbers at counter k + r, this cannot provide information about counter k be brought before the drawing because there is nothing to interact with. So maybe you can go back in time, but that's only useful for quantums, because in the second time dimension interaction counter everything is ordered (macroscopically) monotonously. Anyone interested in details of the layer logic from which all of this started here the link: https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/96134layerlogicalternativeforhumansandaliens/?tab=comments#replyForm Yours Trestone

layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello, in the meantime I developed layer logic further and tried to apply it to philosophical and physical questions. In German you cand find here most details: http://philowelt.de/forum/thread.php?postid=458920 For example I found a solution of the mind  body problem by doing a special interpretation of quantum theory: If particels or quants have several possible ways from start to target, invisible "virtuel possible" particles will go all the ways to the target, and then (still invisible and virtuel) come back to the start, reverse in time, bringing back informations about the (future) target. As they are in the same layer as when started, this virtual informations can not be read by the start. Therefore in physical quantum movements, one of the returning particles has to be selected blindly, and this will become the real particle. So we unterstand quantum contingency better. We already learned that the physical world has a universal layer, that increases with every interaction (except gravitation). Now I assume, that the mind belongs to the infinite layer. If body and mind are onnected in the nervous system, the mind can "read" all quantum informations, especially the informations of the target. He therefore can choose "conciously" and not "blind". In this way the mind can act, but he can only choose possibilities, that the body also could have chosen by chance. Another point is to connect gravity (distortion in spacetime) with the mind. As there is mostly a combination of body and mind, the gravity effects could be between minds (in the infinite layer). Dark matter could be "pure mind". But this all is rather speculative of course ... Yours Trestone 
layer logic  alternative for humans and aliens?
Trestone replied to Trestone's topic in Speculations
Hello, more than a year has gone, but I am still exploring layer logic, mostly in German. Here an older link for layer logic at a thread by Trestone at ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_this_a_new_valid_logic_And_what_does_layer_logic_mean Or you may search “the net” with “layer logic “Trestone”“ or for more actual sides with “Stufenlogik Trestone” (in German). For example: https://www.ask1.org/threads/stufenlogiktrestonereloadedvortragapc.17951/ Yours, Trestone