# M S La Moreaux

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U.S.A.
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U of Michigan / B.S.E.(E.E.)
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Physics

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3. ## Motional Induction?

Someone elsewhere pointed out to me what appears to be the correct answer to my original question. There will be no voltage across the magnet because both types of induction are present and oppose each other exactly. The magnet as conductor is moving in a magnetic field (its own) and producing a motional emf. However, the magnetic field is increasing in the space in front of the moving magnet and decreasing behind it. These changes in the magnetic flux at stationary points of space are accompanied by an electric field which counteracts the motional emf.
4. ## Motional Induction?

I am not sure that the cutting of flux lines occurs in alternators, where the magnet is the moving part. Different frames seem to give different results. For example, imagine a magnet and a length of wire in the magnet's field. If the wire moves and the magnet does not, there will be a non-electrostatic emf along the wire. If the magnet moves and the wire does not, there evidently will be no emf along the wire because magnetic field lines do not move. I would be interested if a source could be found which treats this topic. I have seen a quote by Einstein which points out that the two cases are treated differently even though they would seem to be symmetrical. In the case of the rotating magnet, the idea of the magnet feeling a force from the current-carrying wire seems reasonable. A magnet is supposed to contain spinning electrons. I am having trouble visualizing exactly how they would be affected by the wire's magnetic field, though. The idea that there are no moving magnetic flux lines and the idea that a magnet's field is not attached to it are related to the Faraday paradox. The setup is an electrically conductive disk and a disk magnet mounted face to face on separate axles. There are brushes at the axle and the rim of the conductive disk. If the conductive disk is spun while the magnetic disk is stationary, there is a voltage between the brushes. If the conductive disk is stationary while the magnetic disk is spun, there is no voltage between the brushes. If both disks are spun together. There is a voltage between the brushes. If the voltage were the result of the cutting of a circuit wire by the field lines of the magnetic disk, then there should be a voltage when the magnetic disk alone is spun.
5. ## Motional Induction?

They are not exactly free to move. The drift speed of the conduction electrons is something on the order of a micrometer per second. That is insignificant compared to the typical rotation speed of the disk.
6. ## Motional Induction?

There is a version of the homopolar motor consisting of an electrically conducting disk magnet (whose faces are the poles), mounted on an axle like a wheel, with brushes on the axle and the rim. When an electric current is passed through the disk by means of the brushes it rotates from a standing start. This would seem to indicate that the magnetic field is not attached to the disk.
7. ## Motional Induction?

That is the thing. It seems that the magnetic field is not attached to the magnet. There is evidently no such thing as translating magnetic field lines. There is obviously a field around the magnet no matter where it moves. It is evidently an illusion that the field moves with the magnet. The magnetic flux density could change at any given point over time in such a way that it appears that the field is moving when, in actuality, it is not.
8. ## Motional Induction?

If an electrically conductive permanent magnet is moved at right angles to the direction of its internal magnetic field lines, is a non-electrostatic emf induced across the magnet?
9. ## Faraday's Law is False!

I have realized that my purported counter example involving the toroidal transformer is flawed. The circuit splits at the slip ring and then rejoins. This is not addressed by Faraday's Law. Mike
10. ## Faraday's Law is False!

Cap'n Refsmmat, I am not that up on relativity, but I do not see how it could apply to transformer EMF, since transformer EMF does not involve motion. Mike
11. ## Faraday's Law is False!

It seems to me that there are two forms of induction: motional EMF and transformer EMF. Faraday's disk dynamo is an example of motional EMF. Mike
12. ## Faraday's Law is False!

Transformer EMF is produced by an intrinsically changing magnetic flux, not by the changing exposure of a closed path to a constant flux, as is the case with my example. One of the examples Feynman gave was Faraday's disk dynamo. The other involved rocking plates with a moving point of contact. With an insignificant motion of the plates (thereby eliminating motional EMF) the flux linked by the circuit changed a lot without producing any transformer EMF for the reason given in the previous paragraph. I would rather not get into relativity. Faraday's Law was evidently around long before relativity and is simple enough. Mike
13. ## Faraday's Law is False!

The wire is moving lengthwise as it unwinds, not sideways as in motional EMF. If you read a little further you will find that Feynman said that the "flux rule," as he called it, does not always work and gave two examples. I cannot explain the apparent discrepancy. Again, I maintain that one phenomenon cannot be logically explained alternatively in terms of either of two independent principles. Mike
14. ## Faraday's Law is False!

Cap'n Refsmmat, There is no motional EMF, first because the wire is moving lengthwise, so that any EMF would be across the width of the wire, not its length, and second because the external magnetic field is insignificant. I am not misinterpreting Faraday's Law, you are. It is clear that there is no change in the magnetic flux through the circuit. It seems to me that Maxwell's equations are the expression of direct physical principles, regardless of how they were arrived at. Mr Skeptic, I see that you are one of those who takes authority over logic and reasoning. Is Richard Feynman not authoritative enough for you? swansont, I do not believe that this thread deserves to be moved to the speculations category. Again, this is not something new. Richard Feynman pointed out the fact that Faraday's Law does not always work and gave a couple of examples of this many years ago. Mike
15. ## Faraday's Law is False!

It may give the correct answer, but that does not prove that it is physics. Faraday's Law does give the correct answer in most cases, but not because it is a valid principle. If it were valid, it would give the correct answer in every case. Mike
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