mr_keybay

What do you mean by "actally dead"? Can you explain please?

"I never got so far as to figure out what you're wrong about, exactly." What's the point of your all comments then? Just curious. "and that's our second. What, by you, is a 'proper' answer?" Explaining how and why exhumed bodies did not decompose themselves despite the long time passed into the burial in some particular cases. Since you look pretty much confident on what you stated before and the way you actually phrased your "rational explanations" - I would then ask you to explain me this, kindly. Furthermore I am not annoyed at all by your questions, although the most questions I am reading here are not related to the core topic even; the only annoying part is everything you claim to say is the most "better" rational explaintion indirectly attacking my thesis without knowing what we are talking about, as you explicitly specified not being interested; it's not annoying so bad either, but that's the reason of my responses.

https://www.iol.co.za/the-star/news/resurrected-mans-family-say-he-died-under-mysterious-circumstances-in-zim-211554 http://www.jesusmariasite.org/the-testimony-of-gloria-polo https://mashable.com/article/woman-wakes-up-in-morgue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmgIyaagG94&t=445s Also as PeterKin said, there's nothing sure in the science about the death and therefore admitting that cases of resuscitation may be possible.

Indeed, I would really appreciate if someone can actually prove me my statements being wrong. Whether you are ignoring the mentioned phenomenons I don't know, but the evidence I am talking about (which you clearly aren't aware of) show otherwise and that naturally goes against your pragmatical claims.

I am not sure how "cell biology" knowledge is relevant to this topic and I also don't see anything explained there capable to explain what happens and why the questions I asked above. Although I am just curious, none of you seemed to give me the proper answer to everything I pointed out. You are constantly asking me to provide the evidence to you while I believe that even if I would you are going to deny the showed facts so I rather prefer you to consult the literature yourself and find the "evidence" you expect, if you are interested.

First of all, I don't really see where you actually notice my statements containing your current claim, which is "The degree or absence of obvious decomposition has no effect whatever on the presence or absence of life". The only pointed "issue" was simply a short explaination about the remarked lack of decomposition in that particular case. Obviously at certain temperatures you can keep the physiological state "integer" for a period of time, hibernation is what it's used. The fact oxygen may be a responsible factor of decomposition might not be entirely coherent with what described the case, even if anything is put inside a closed box the oxygen should always find a way to get inside. You can find all the "evident" proofs by consulting the literature and just doing an Internet research about resucitations / lack of decompositions after the exhumation. If you are researcher you would already know that.

Your reasoning looks entirely pragmatic without any rational thinking considered all the previous replies.

We agree that it's an indicator only, not a "proof" or anything as to be entirely sure the physical body has to decompose itself, as the user PeterKin explained before. In fact I noticed that many historical procedures in order to deal with such a issue were using particular practices to make sure the person would never come back as far as I'm aware. Nowadays it has been put much more confidence to the modern technologies that somehow the "indictor" provided by those is the actual "proof" of someone being really dead. Although decomposition obviously starts, nothing seems to be able to provide any kind of detail on "when" decomposition starts and at which speed it degenerates. For the record, there have several cases in which decomposition of human's body was actually absent after a long time and the issue was debated as well. By such cases it looks not especially clear to me whether decomposition starts at some particular point and / or predicting his curve. However, assuming your claiming is correct, as I want to keep an open mind, then I would ask you: how's that even possible that those bodies didn't decompose themselves while clearly they hadn't the nourishment present for their life? Just curious.

Brain activity monitored by proper machines or by "lack of brain activity" as because of the decomposition? Once again, different things. As far as I could read it seems you agreed to the fact that decomposition will not start right away.

May I ask you what do you mean by "brain death"? If you are talking about the physical decomposition by "death" it's something, if you are talking about a flat electroencephalogram curve it's something else. Both are definitely different things.

I am not sure what kind of "commnents" you are referring to but most everything I read isn't attacking my "idea" either, rather just three-four laughing smiles at something they explicitly revealed not even want to read because of the length. Regarding the lexical style, I am sorry you don't like it while I don't see anything wrong in using it. I would be indeed glad to answer whatever you deem hard to understand from the text but the community hasn't showed any interest so I don't see how I could be even helpful. Feel free to point out to me all the "term" that you find hard to understand, I will try to explain. What kind of attacks are critcizing my idea? Can you please remark them to me? Is there any construction base to "attack" my idea except the "I don't agree with what you are saying" without any scientific reason or interest in the thread? Additionally I am not trying to make my "logic" as the best one available and I was simply responding to the satirical comments in the same way how they have been phrased, if the conversation had different tons I would have done differently, naturally. "It's also the spontaneous return of cardiac activity after pronounced dead." I am not sure if you are actually kidding or attempting to be ironical, but it's well written in the page I linked to you at the very first lines of the text. Instead, if your question was rather meant to ask about possible mistakes about the possible announcement of deaths - that's indeed a good question, in fact it might be possible so at this point we would call it "no exactly dead", as you specified, because of the not-heppened decomposition yet if by "death" you implicitly mean decomposition as well.

If you think my thesis is worthless reading I wonder why you would post such your unnecessary comments, even offensive for that matter. At the beginning of topic without knowing the subject of the thread even. I think I tried to give all the best answers I could, and since you made only satirical remarks I don't think the conversation can follow without degenerating in something toxic, which isn't my purpose anyway. Have a good luck.

If you had a read to my thesis you would clearly realize that everything you are claiming has been specified thousands of times, at least in the experiment part. And as for the "(about 24 hours is customary before post-mortem examination commences)" is what I was previously calling "tempoal range", which is obvious and from there all my doubts started from.

If you are interested in the thesis you might start the reading from the introduction part skipping the topic introduction, since it became pretty obvious after the last discussion.

So then, if you are actually stating what you are stating, is that indirectly proving what I logically deduced in the text above, am I correct? We are not speaking about literature, nor political, nor ethics. We are speaking about science; and as far as I know, science must not go through opinions, through politics, through bias - but through facts or, eventually, logical assumptions. It is the most impartial discipline I ever known. Am I correct? Regarding a scientific answer, nothing seems to prove that a life-state return is impossible, am I correct?

Everything you are stating in this reply is obvious in a long time, it's nothing new to me. "That doesn't rule out the possibility of incorrect pronouncements of death, which is why people are not buried immediately - indeed, even the autopsy is not begun immediately - they arrive at the morgue. Medical personnel tend to keep trying to preserve life as long as there is sign of life to preserve. " Exactly, which is interesting. In fact, after the burial there's no way to check whether the cardiac / brain activity will restore its usual activity, not as it was checked before the burial with a specific monitoring. Am I correct? Would you be able to check someone's brain activity once hermetically locked? Certainly not. That's why the science indeed has a temporal "border" in which any kind of surveillance will be ended later.

I am not sure if you have any kind of bias towards wikipedia, the public encyclopedia, but here's documented the "evidence" you are asking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_syndrome If this is recognized by science as a "syndrome" without further care it's possibly true, would you contact the author of the article saying that you do not have any kind of occur to what's written there and therefore asking for censure. Is that enough evidence to show you that there have been indeed cases, in which the science apparently has also a proper definition for them? Also since you are looking for evidence, do you have any against-evidence regarding your claim? I mean, since you are looking for evidence you likely know what scientifically heppens to the death I would assume, am I correct? Therefore not coherent with what science (medicine) says in the matter, especially when it comes to consciousness - but that's another topic. Please answer me this logical question: if science is sure about how/when death actually begins after someone stops emitting the life signs, why would be there still a time range before someone can be actually exhumed as for the final deal? Thank you.

I would tell you that nowadays there is still no specific evidence to prove that the body of a deceased person can never return to its previous life-state considering the phenomenologies observed, in addition to the strange health directives currently in force as it's clearly specified in the first post. The existing statements seem contradictory: if there have been reports of people coming back to life inexplicably after the declaration of death but within a short time range and, as mentioned, "inexplicably" - my question is: what could prevent the same phenomenon from happening present outside the pre-established time interval (eg. after the burial)? While this is the core question, the idea is simply to place died individuals under continuous surveillance even after the declaration of death, therefore after the burial, taking note of the above considerations. However, if you already have an answer to all my doubts, especially the "core" one, as I deduce, I assure you that you would make me feel better. You can find all such described cases in the literature, which are pretty-well documented. You should probably investigate more about human's literature regarding the death if you have no idea of what I am referring to. No one is enforcing you to stay at this thread. If you feel like the treated discussion doesn't really fit your competences, your knowledge, your interests - feel free to leave. I stay open for any further question related to the topic, I will try my best to answer. Furthermore I don't see anything wrong in using a particular lexical style, as you are pointing, and additionally I can - like I explained above - summarize the idea in one sentence and therefore one logical implication. Please read the previous quote. Could you kindly provide me any actual proof that the statement you quoted is actually incorrect, please? If it's something I am not aware of, I would gladly appreciate to learn it and eventually rephrasing all the mentioned concepts, just curiosity in me. Thank you.

Definitely up to you.

ADC experiment - advanced-death-checker In order to understand what death is, we must ask ourselves two fundamental questions: what is death? Is it really the moment when life would cease to exist, the end of everything? What happens to consciousness when our organism stops its vital functions? Weeks, days, minutes would remain to listen us while we face the questions with extreme rationality, doing so we could even guess many aspects characterizing the life itself. For the science, according to the current knowledge on the merits, the definition of death indicates the permanent cessation - moreover scientifically irreversible - of all vital functions that allow to identify the individual "state" in our ordinary dimension. Noted for centuries, an indelible dogma is maintained throughout science without further interest to personally verify what can happen beyond the so-called "border" if not by experiments trying to prove what are our hypothetical visions involving the phenomenon. That’s what the science explains in the matter. Numerous cases show that individuals who died within 48 hours inexplicably resume their life activities in a relatively short period of time, typically before the final exhumation process. Many such cases also arose in antiquity, raising concerns about the planned burials possibly on an "apparent" dead body. Keeping to this consideration, a question would arise: are we undoubtedly certain of the complete death of a subject while existing similar testimonies, as described? To answer, we must look at a few elements. The only methodologies available for the declaration of "death" are temporal-based distances from the beginning of cessation on all the activities indispensable to life habitually observable provided from legislative norms which can be extremely variable depending on the belonging Nation; that means that nowadays there is still no absolute scientific certainty capable to establish the appropriate timings in order to carry out the classification, nevertheless the final concept is exactly described as "legal death". Each Nation has timelines set by laws based on its scientific knowledge on the matter and, possibly, influenced by its own cultures and in some cases connected with strictly social ethics. Since there is no absolute knowledge about the phenomenon there may be a risk of falling into the ravine without even realizing it. The called human event "apparent deaths" could be the example of notable anomalies and frankly terrible. If life could fall - as it seemed to be – in ordinary functioning states, although rare, in the most typical cases, contained within a time interval defined as "acceptable" before the final classification, what could deny that the phenomenon could actually occur outside the same boundary on which our reference looks to be made? Because of the current paradigm we remain with the idea that it cannot occur beyond the default temporal boundary, which takes place before a complete abandonment; it is also stated that it is not scientifically possible for a body to return to its ordinary activity due to the phenomenon of near biological decomposition, and everything that would happen in this circumstance is solely caused by this. Both assertions are mildly contradictory: if the first statement says that there may be the non-absolute-certainty about the death, the second - whether real - persists in believing that every phenomenon beyond the time range - which, as stated, prefixed precisely by law, therefore presumably non-absolute - is associated with biological decomposition where all studies seem to focus on. In fact, a sort of action in absolutely wanting to demonstrate a hypothetical vision on something illogical born from a mere conviction. In other words, if we simply considered that there may be reversible states regardless of the fixed previews, the deduction that "premature exhumations" are likely to be made would be very obvious as some testimonies seem to have reported, among which even during antiquity the topic was still debated. The time field in which we can know about this is particularly short before losing all contacts with the deceased patient during the burial, where he will be hermetically locked up as "convinced" that there can be no returns as they are no longer considerable. We can represent the current reflection using a small analogy: let’s imagine to leave our pet - obviously only to report a reflective method and not to agree on the specific action - on an island completely lost and very far from us; how could we know what it is doing when we ask ourselves the question? In fact, we could not know. Once this is reached, it would no longer make sense to take for granted all our assumptions about what our "beloved animal" can carry out in that place – as mentioned – largely distant from our position. Therefore, returning to the clear implication, it seems impossible to validate with certainty the beginning of a death process, at least the exact starting moment, on legal definitions based on scientific knowledge precisely not absolute, not yet proven and still up for various researches. Some testimonies of exhumations show evidence about lack of biological decomposition, scientifically expected, in the bodies of the deceased after many years of the same burial and from the same death, moreover making the phenomenon questionable if only in terms of duration. Sticking to the facts if the gases, oxygen, could not penetrate the inside of a completely closed "cube" then a similar scenario could be reproduced in similar conditions, especially if "trying" to correlate the lack or (delayed) decomposition to a very low presence of gas o2 inside the burial environment, still proving questionable when trying to apply the same explanation to a biologically living body. Assuming a sudden reactivation, for some unknown reason, of life related functions – the individual would not be able to communicate with us. In other words, if someone ever "decided" to wake up inside the sarcophagus he would be unable to further communicate, moreover without the necessary gas to keep him alive in the ordinary state thus returning to the previous one becoming a cycle automatically without anyone knowing ever. On the other hand, if the o2 gas were on the contrary in large (sufficient) quantities, the subject could regain life’s functions while remaining in a state of "life" but still unable to communicate as well as probably entering to additional unknown states. That such events can happen outside our horizon that we refuse to understand and accept is perhaps possible, yet we simply struggle to integrate these reasonings into our common lives. In the ordinary state, that is, what we call life, we are used to consider the state of deep coma, as well as the vegetative state that follows it, but not in the death. Generally, the most typical action is to carefully observe particular movements by a deceased body trying to ascertain its being alive by thanatological analysis, however, a body in a state of coma does not possess at least evident mobility, so if hypothetically it came to such a condition it would not be sufficient to look for – in strict terms – movements only. We could remotely imagine what would happen if a deceased resumed life related functions while remaining in an identical state; it would be, at the present time, impossible to know without in-depth researches. Therefore we "agree" to include the state of vegetative coma in the ordinary system, but we completely exclude it as we are convinced that nothing can happen beyond the marked limit by conquering the scientific terminology of "irreversibility". Examining the existing dynamics of the various procedures applied on lifeless bodies, in our trainings we operate in the following way: the patient stops emitting his life signs during the treatments, the medical team will be waiting for the next upcoming minutes and, once passed, he will be moved to a place for legal observation (eg. morgue) for the next hours and as a last step will be prepared to be buried. This is what happens in the last treatment procedures. In the final stage we lose all form of contact with the deceased individual, this seems evident and preventing us from knowing its particular course. Furthermore, misdiagnoses of death in particular hospital centers cannot be excluded despite the fact that they might correctly follow the authoritarian indications provided by the institutions knowing the complexity of the topic. To this loss of information, having therefore deduced that there are, at least “been”, encounters of reversibility in apparently sporadic cases, the idea of the ADC experiment is to exactly eliminate this time range imposed by laws by placing continuous surveillance even after a burial on the body of the deceased is done. - Introduction The purpose of the ADC experiment is to implement a constant monitoring on the body of the deceased despite the official confirmation of "legal death" in order to further investigate the possibility of sudden reactivations, as unforeseen or, to be clearer, completely "random", even later the extreme of the established time limit. The experiment will probably require the approval of legislative entities although it was intended to be carried out in amplitude and not in small samples, thus increasing the chances of unexpected occurs. - NOTES Such experiment may result as unethically and/or non-legislatively compliant according to current knowledge about the treated phenomenon by emphasizing that research should not be carried out for profit purposes as such, but for purposes of pure discovery. Certain conclusions can constitute a drastic source of danger in various scientific, political, religious, ethical and institutional social sectors, generating possible imbalances and subsequently deliriums. The research is absolutely not aimed at an open public, being closed to disclosure in case it is performed. The author of this manuscript does not assume responsibilities for any consequence to the practices indicated below, therefore remaining anonymous. - Tools A vital monitoring kit is needed as the available functionality of transmission and remote control. The transmitting devices must operate thanks to rechargeable energy systems, managed and replaced periodically by the agencies in charge of the "maintenance" of the deceased or anyone who may be present in the place. A reception system containing a database where all the identifying information will be stored and with them a tracking graph on the positive activities collected must be arranged, which can be placed wherever you prefer within the transmission field for the sole purpose of reporting and displaying the information sent by the remote monitoring devices. Radio transmission technologies can be exploited for the reception of information, basically an entire apparatus capable of receiving information obtained remotely. - Procedure To carry out the experiment the following parameters can be obtained: heart rhythm rate, blood pressure and blood saturation. It can be also included other parameters such as brain activity through the typical electroencephalogram but requiring additional equipment. The monitoring devices will be installed into the defunct environment while all parameters quoted will be exclusively checked by doctors with high competence in Anesthesiology and Resuscitation. With the use of a monitoring system equipped with remote transmission inversely set connected to the subject, it will record all the positive activities emitted by the cardiovascular system or any system connected to it by capturing any clinical state belonging, of course, to our ordinary dimension (eg. coma or not) by providing information relating to their life condition. Suspicious positive activities will be stored in a database associated with the personal identity in the reception system additionally using an alarm specifically programmed to urgently report "relevant" graphic movements (continuously positives). A software capable of performing such an operation must be developed keeping constant monitoring active so allowing the tracking of any event of "return" in our ordinary state and the evolution of the entire process in progress by reporting anomalies. Followed and validated findings, such as an unexpected activation of the electroencephalic system and/or the cardiovascular system resulting in a "return" in the current level of reality, the competent participants will be able to revive the individual if necessary. Despite the preliminary objectives of the ADC experiment intend to collect information relating to events that may occur outside the perspective horizons present with only classical-medicine purposes, not metaphysics, once the individual ever "returned" in the active biological conditions the same participants will be able to submit the examinee to specific questionnaires in order to identify possible similarities regarding perceptions of reality experienced during the previous conditions potentially linked to altered states of consciousness, as represented by NDEs (Near-Death-Experiences). The known term is enclosed for "Experiences close to death" due to biological activations remanifested within the time lapse, then recognized and considered as such, subsequently used to be combined with a medically reversible condition. Any subject experienced levels of reality not to order even in actual death or identical to that reported by the NDE, it would open a new knowledge of the phenomenon of death and what happens to it additionally making the terminology of "NDE" meaningless as it is used not only to consider the particular experiences lived, but also to be categorized to a - as stated - clinical condition considered reversible losing meaning if analytical evidence appeared in the exam following the functional cancellation of the term to describe and twenty recurrent "close" to death, but exactly being part of it. - Conclusions By carrying out the experiment, the enrichment of current knowledge would become concretely predictable, impossible to deny how unexpected conclusions can change the conceptions of life and its destination. One's own philosophies can simply be the fruit of such a reflection that can be articulated in experiment. Considering psychoanalysis, it would not be surprising that such a phenomenon as the departure from the unknown simply belongs to the mere human-biological disposition if allowed to say so, because unknown is what hurts. As we remove what is bad, so we abandon what is of bad appearance, because the higher our "lifeblood" is, the greater we will be magnetized to the same as everything that dissociates it is not included to the "plans" it reserves. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The unknown does not follow our hypotheses, our hypotheses should follow the unknown" "Although I leave, I will not close the book"

There have been various cases indeed. Many are just reported that people within a short range of time returned back to life after the declaration of decease, which is interesting. Regarding your question, I think you are misunderstanding what I mentioned earlier: in fact I said that there have been evidence of cases that people returned to the life-state, not that any actual scientific evidence that this is a possible event.

Thanks for your answer. You can move the post to the "Other sciences" section eventually, given the fact I had no certainty it could be actually "welcome" I decided to post it here. You can also delete the attachment since I am currently unable to edit my previous post. The original article can be found here: url deleted - Mr_KeyBay

Hello everyone, for the first time I am posting a little content to this community that I have been following in a while. What you see below is an article attempting to make a "reflection" about the phenomenon of death, seen from a human's perspective, on how the actual phenomenon looks to be completely departed from our common lives. All of this, naturally, brings me one question: does "death" actually works as we always expected, as we always believed it to work? If that's possible, can we deny that someone who is died can't never return back to the life-state despite the various historical evidences showing that it has heppened for at least a very small amount of population, as such? Similar questions do not have any proper answer, yet many, many hypotheses followed by static-actions implemented on the world in order to find the correct "deal" with it. In the attachment below you can find the article in which I investigate this problem deeper of our current visions regarding the phenomenon, eventually analyzing what are the issues that apparently were never been resolved. Have a good read. - P.S. Directed to the staff members, please feel free to move / remove this post whether you think it may be inappropriate for the actual topic. Thank you. - Mr_KeyBay ADC experiment.pdf