Gregoriev

ever think of using sodium hydroxide for the electrolyte? Some people recomended it to me in this forum. also, i know copper will definatly dissolve away as it oxydizes, however, i hope it takes a long time to do that. I would normally be happy to draw a diagram for you as far as full scale production is concerned, but alas...i am a little lazy to do that. here are some hints though: Use smaller PVC pipes within a larger 4" pipe. cut the little ones and cap them. These will be used to collect your hydrogen only, you should be able to cram about 40 of these into the 1 foot section of pipe. each little tube will only be 3-4 inches long. Insert cathodes and annodes into them, and be sure to drill holes in the caps and run separate pipes from them for hydrogen and oxygen. I am sure as you make it you will get good ideas as far as actual construction. For something on this sale you would need about 4 PSUs, each preferably and older more rugged model of about 250-300 watts. connect the 12v and 5v lines in a roughly symetrical fasion to all the cathodes and annodes, being sure that having two electrodes of the same charge next to eachother is avoided as much as possible. Then power up this bad boy and watch the hydrgoe nform.

Electrolysizer? That's the word I have always been using....hate to find out I was saying something stupid all this time. try googleing electrolysis and water, should be some commercial products that come up. I bet that they would be called by the right thing.

didn't I have a forum about this sort of thing... Oh well, be that as it may, I would recomend using NaOH as the salt in the solution for electrolysis. It appears to be very stable, and good for this sort of thing with the right materials. at least that's what they tell me here on the forum.

What the!? why are there no more posts??? COME ON!!! Nobody has anyhing else to say!? It has been several days! No comments on the pic, design, nothing!?

Okay, the properties of NaOH seem to be pretty good. The electrolysizers will be totally CO2 free, since they will be sealed and filled 100% with only water. The effects of H2 and O2 electrolysis on copper remains to be seen... And what I am talking about is having multiple units running at 20-30 amps. I am stabbing in the dark here, but depending on the ouput vs the imput, the ammounts of water I actually need electrolysized remain unknown. But I know for a fact I will need alot. In reagards to not having answers to my questions...seriously?! There is NO known research out there thats published in regards to how to electrolysize water as quickly and efficiently as possible??? I have looked myself and found nothing...but surely someboy here knows something in regards to where I can find the detailed information I need.

okay dude....that's just not cool. I only want the high grade stuff for my electrolysis. quick question though: How far into the tube should the electrodes be for maximum electrosizing? too far and the circuit may not complete well enough, too exposed and hydrogen and oxygen may leak out into the housing creating a bubble of explosive gas to collect and probalbly detonate. I am thinking 1-2 cm into the individual h2 and o2 electrolysis tubes. and also, the NaOH will not break down over time right? I am counting on this, because once i seal the housing, the only way in would be through the water intake tube, and it would be a bitch to have to check and preportion the NaOH in there properly. one last thing, what is the right preportion of NaOH to water that would produce the kind of ultra fast high production electrolsizing i am looking for? I want this thing to convert a Gallon of water into H2 ande O2 every 25-30 minutes. I know that will take alot of units, but if each is as perfect as possible it might just work.

WTF!? I accedentaly hit an "N" instead of a stupid T and you all go hyjacking my thread as some stupid Pain VS photoshop debate? I am working with explosive stuff here!!!! Geeze... Now where can a guy buy some NaOH on the cheap? And don't say internet...

How about I don't mix them until the moment they have to ignite? I could just have four lines come up in a cross formation, two H2 and two O2, they will discharge next to eachother and at an upwards angle. This will make the H2 and O2 mix in the air, not in some tube. (too lazy to draw a MS Pain pic. use your imaginations)

dear lord....i didn't think you guys would take me seriously! also, i plan on trying to create "real time" electrolysis, whereby a noticable ammount of water must flow into the device/system of devices to keep it full of water. I need like a 3" flames worth of hydrogen to be produced in real time. I estimate that equates to about 25-30 identical electrolysis devices working together. That;s alot of electrolysizing!

I know I will, first of all, there will be NO WIND. Second, I will Pray that it doesn't go out. Third, The flame is just a measure of how much gas the unit is putting out, just for testing really. The real awesomeness comes from collecting all that h2 and o2 in a balloon, then firing a roman candle at it in my black yard. I am talking one of those three foot in diameter balloons that you hit people with...you know the kind?

Excelent! We have like 10-15 of those old "useless" power supplies laying around and wasting space. I might be able to score a few of them no problem.

Okay, the dated PSUs in computer class that the teacher wil let met have all supply 24A on the 5v lines, and about 12-14A on the 12V lines. Here in lies the problem, I see pleanty of 5+ and 12+ lines all over the place, and an equal number of misc. black wires entering/leaving the plugs, however according to the scematics from my A+ packets only the white wires are 5- volts...there is only ONE white wire and like 7 red ones. The same type of situatoin exists for the 12v lines. How am I supposed to safely wire this baby up? Attach black wires to the negative ends, or split the white wire seven ways and attach those to the negative ends? or something i have not even thought of... anyone? please?

what is the current measured in? or does it just say current and then supply a number... I really need to know details here, I will be grabbing four or five of these things over the next few days.

Now about the PC power supplies...what should i look for? what statistics should it display on the side that would be in my favor to get high current and 4-5v voltage? (i am not completely familiar with the statistics display on the sides of the power supplies) As for the electrodes, i plan on using copper for now, platinum when i become more comfortable with the device and decide it's time for an upgrade. NaOH or NaF??? I'll let you two chem experts duke it out on this one. I think NaOH (liquid right?) would dissolve better in water...though NaF does seem to be good too. Any explicit reasons why I should take one over the other?

what would a PC power supply do for me? I imagine it's somewhat low voltage (12v), and the current couldn't be that bad...right? I know that it will work, but I need high capacity high production units here. I eventually planning on having 15-20 such units producing hydrogen for another experiment of mine.

i cannot form graphite into a net/grid pattern, and hence i will have much less surface area and alot less production capabiliby.

Well you didnt say that! I can supply a solid 12 volts to every cathode/anode, more if it would help. I have a nearly unlimited supply of old PC power supplies i can get from my computer class. They are only about 250-300 watts each though, so one per device will hopefully be enough. Hopefully it's nice and conductive...but not toooo conductive. i don't want to blow a fuse or something. so, looks like the salt is definatly going to be NaF, and the cathodes/anodes will be made of copper(though i would have liked to get platinum). but what is the optimal voltage? 12v good? or should it be more... also, what is the expected rate of electrolysis? would one such container containing 10 oxygen and hydrogen producing tubes be able to produce a solid uninterupted flame on it;s own?

I think i might be putting alot more voltage into this than just 1.25 i am afraid. using a PC power supply, I have mainly 12 volt connectors, though some also have 3 volt lines as well. If i divide up a single line 10 ways however, would that in turn divide up the voltage evenly? that way 1.2 volts would be served to each line, and i would not exceed the decomposition voltage of NaF? also, where would i procure large quantities of NaF? I am talking gallons here...

Thank you all for the info. I take it that it's untrue the NaCl and Sodium Bicarbonate form one produce (oxygen/hydrogen) more efficiently than the other. EG: Baking soda forms more oxygen faster, and NaCl form more Hydrogen. Then it's settled, i shall dissolve baking soda into the water instead. though i have some questions about this substance: 1) does it break down in any way in water like NaCl does? 2) will it leave the sollution or become useless after some time? 3) how much should i add into the water per liter for optimal results? 4) will it settle to the bottom after a while if the water cools? do i have to heat the water to keep it in an ideal sollution or is room temerature okay? will stirring be necessary? Also, thanks for the advice in regards to the cathode/anode materials. Graphite seems rather inefficient though...i would prefer something i can form into a fine mesh for more surface area and greater effect. Unless I can find some really cheap fine platinum wire, i guess i will have to go with copper for the time being. I know it will oxidize slowly, but it's better than iron for sure. What about stainless steel? I know that is not supposed to rust, is it? Here is the design I have thusly come up with:

What is the most efficient way to create Hydrogen and Oxygen gas from the electrolysis of water? I have done much research on the internet in this area, though what scare information i found of any value came from basic science experiments done by elementary school children. This distressed me much, as I wish to try and find an effeicent way to electrolysize water into hydrogen and oxygen for an experiment I am conducting. My reasearch and limited knowlege on the subject has turned up several facts, the authenticity of which i cannot be 100% sure of. 1) Use of NaCl (table salt), Baking soda, or Sulfuric acid in an aqueous solution will increase production of either hydrogen or oxygen at the expense of one or the other. 2) Hydrogen forms at the negative electrode, and Oxygen at the positive electrode. 3) only 1.23 to 1.75 volts are needed for electrolysis, and increasing voltage/current with more wattage will increase production at the expense of efficiency. 4) platinum is a good material for a cathode or anode, though i do not understand why copper or stainless steel nails/wire would not... Points two and three are rather easy to understand and impliment in an electrolysis device. I plan to use rather "crude" parts as I cannot afford much more expensive parts that would give more finesse to the finished product. For point two i plan on using several PVC pipes within a much larger pipe, each smaller PVC with it's own cathode or anode. This will create oxygen producing and hydrogen producing pipes respectivly. The larger pipe would simply enclose the general structure so all pipes may be submerged in water at the same time and can share the same resivoir more easily. Point three is where i get a bit creative. By using a PC power supply, i can create a uniform 12v current throughout the aparatus, attaching negative and positive wires equally for the variosu hydrogen and oxygen producint tubes. I am thinking a 2:1 ratio of H2 to O2 tubes to be more uniform with the relative 2:1 ratios of the gases present in water. As for what material to use for the cathods/anodes...well, i beleive that a copper net would be most appropriate as it would increase surface area greaty, and copper is cheaper than platinum. The first point however is where the facts seem to break down... is it better to use baking soda or salt as a conductive ion/anion in the sollution? or perhaps a mixture of both? would placing just baking soda or salt separatly within hydrogen/oxygen tubes increase production of the gas they are supposed to help create? (I do not know which salt produces which gas more efficiently as i have varying and conflicting sources) Clarification in this area would expediate the design of the device greatly. Please clarify me where I am wrong, and if possible provide some useful websites or books i can read at my local library. The faster i get clarification, the faster i can design a prototype. The picture of which will be posted here of course, soon thereafter i will be creating the real thing and testing it. and yes, i will be igniting the mixture. My plan is to create a device large/efficient enough to be both light and create hydrogen/oxygen quickly enough to burn a solid flame without having to store up the gasses. I mean a large 4-5 inch flame, not just a ciggareete lighter flame. If all goes according to plan, i will have a completed device built and ready within...say...a week. dependant on the rate of clarification of course. In the distant future, such a device will work alongside identical devices to create large ammounts of hydrogen and oxygen to be stored in high capacity tanks. (though i will save that for another day.)