toolsoftrust

Just now, Strange said:

You appear to have done exactly that by preaching your religious beliefs on a science forum.

I have to go.  I just realized I was banned here at an earlier date.

22 minutes ago, beecee said:

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Firstly, personally I resent nothing you say, (afterall why would I: what you say has no effect on me)  but I do question what you say.

The Universe can be explained scientifically via empirical scientific means up to 10-43 seconds after the BB. (there is no evidence at all that there is any ID aspect behind the existence of the universe)    

Before that, anything that science claims is speculation, but in many cases speculation based on reasonable current scientific knowledge. eg: https://www.astrosociety.org/publications/a-universe-from-nothing/

 

Science cannot even prove that the speed of light (the measure of time) is constant from beginning to end.  Every scientific observation is based on 2 time-clocks: the span of a human-being's scientific experience, and the written accounts.  Yet you only accept the written accounts of scientific decisions.  That's what they are--decisions.  If this isn't so, then tell me how you know the speed of light from it's origin to the present time and place.

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In actual fact the universe and everything in it, appears

Nonsense.  To any reasonable person.  Fact, by definition, is proven, not apparent.

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to be one gigantic accident and that includes us. This rather cold, uncaring, lack of purpose, upsets many people and they see the need to invent that purpose, or to explain via magic that which they don't understand, but which has already been explained by science. But hey! whatever floats your boat.  

Just one question...It has occurred to me many times.Why do so many people of "faith" of whatever persuasion, see the need to come to a science forum, and search for conflict?        I mean I'm dropping my Mrs off to church in an hour or so, (yes my wife is religious but also tolerant and does not push her beliefs on a science forum) but I would never follow her into church, walk up to the pulpit and start explaining how science has near eliminated any need for any deity. 

 

This is a public forum for discussion, not for conflict.  I wouldn't follow someone into a lab or an environmental study and start preaching to my adversaries.  You choose adversity.  I come in friendship.

 

On 5/2/2017 at 0:12 AM, jfoldbar said:

i was bought up a christian. went my own way in my early 20's. now i am completely neutral simply cause 'the jurys still out'.

i tend to lean towards science because i like the thought of something that can be proven rather than just believed. for me, logic overrules feelings.

something i sometimes wonder. for me to turn from a strong believer to on the fence, all i had to do was simply read the other side of the story. hear both arguments. why doesnt that work for everyone?

 

sometimes i find things like this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211511/Why-born-believe-God-Its-wired-brain-says-psychologist.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-people-fly-from-facts/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/201107/you-end-believing-what-you-want-believe

 

there are so many studies showing that humans generally just believe something or not. and usually if you believe it then no amount of proof will change your belief.

 

so i guess a few things i wonder are. while i was raised a christian and know the bible, how do i know i was not pre wired to believe science and so was easily turned away from my belief. how do we keep ourselfs honest, given that we are all human, and so are all susceptible to believe either way.

 

if i could turn so easily, why cant another person with the same'facts' that turned me. surely a fact is a fact regardless of who the learner or those facts are.

 

 

are there people out there who have a strong science background, and have suddenly ditched that to believe in god

The problem with so-called "facts," in science, is that science is a community, that jointly accepts *evidence* (not proof), as fact; the only facts that are truly proven, are events having already occurred.  

For example, there's no guarantee that any certain community will not be attacked tomorrow.  Yet if a national informer were to report to a primary officer of such planned attack, it would be considered strongly.  Such tactics are wise, and based on knowing.  Yet the scientific community does not ever take human testimony as evidence, because evidence isn't proof.  If a trusted friend told you about covert plans against you by a known enemy, you would accept his testimony.  But you dismiss any testimony about Jesus.

It seems clearly that there is never a unit of nature, whether natural or "supernatural," that is perfectly symmetric, and that every unit of nature is perfectly asymmetric.  Earth is a semi-symmetrical unit.  Earth, moon and sun are a common unit.  Earth, moon, "planets," sun and stars are another natural unit.  Everything lacks perfect symmetry, and mandates perfect asymmetry.  Regions of the seas appear at times to be ungoverned, but are clearly of one surface with the rivers and water tables, modulated by the ebb and flow of those rivers, and by the water tables under the earth, and by the winds and by vaporization and condensation.  The passing of seasons on earth appear to be symmetric, but then they seem out of step with the moon's wax and wane.  The passing of the earth's evenings and mornings seems perfectly uniform, yet no perfect number of days fits precisely within the bounds of seasons and moons.  It would seem then, that necessarily, there is an eternal Creator, and that He fashioned the worlds by a perfect art, a discipline far weightier than science.

Moreover, those of a common faith with the Bible, would require that Genesis chapter 1 is perfectly uniform with nature.  Those of a contrary view from the Bible, would require that nature is irrational and that asymmetry is dominant in the universe since it's symmetry is purely coincidental.

Since this discussion will probably evoke resentment in some,  I thank any persons now, who participate, in case it is ever censored.  The question at hand then, is this: Who made the universe?  I say Jesus of Nazareth made the universe.