Anarchaus

the base changes are random' date=' but - by a prosess of natural selection - the bad changes are filtered out, and the good changes propagated. thusly, evolution is not random.

 

evolution is the natural prosess whereby random changes result in a non-random improvement over time, and so i suppose could be seen as self-guiding, although i think im using "guided" in a slightly different way than you did.[/quote']

 

Yes,Yes thats not my problem,

 

i probably didn't display my views properly:

 

It is just the fact that every other physical system in the universe is "guided" by some law, or some force, EXCEPT LIFE!

I have no problem whatsoever about the whole natural selection, with nature screening out "unfit" organisims from the enviroment, but my problem resides in the actual beginnings of life. "unfit" molecules don't die off, they sit there just as the "fit" molecules do, there is no compitition, they only sit there. And how can the nucleotides express information when they have nothing to express it to?(proteins) and the nucleotides say NOTHING, untill something uses the nucleotides to invent a "alphabet" to express something, the nucleotides will sit there like any other molecules. Thats my beef with evolution.

 

And also the actual process of "mutation", i don't believe that all this diversity is the result of a UV ray hitting genome 143-u-45 causing a repeating error. Especially since (as you know) the odds of something going wrong, instead of right are astronomically huge, and then if a miracle happens and a mutation just happens to cause a benificial effect, that is only one in a billion required mutations to come up with higher organisms. so the odds of even one mutation working are already tiny, the odds of it doing this impposible task a billion times is damn impossible.

That is my problem.

not the whole" evolution acts as a screen against unwanted organisims that are unfit for survival in a particular setting"

This part has been shown to work(ie: man in shorts trys to survive in the antarctic) thanks for your input

Well, I don't think i have OCD, but i used to show mild symptoms of OCD, (like always tuching doorways while walking through) i got over it by obsessivly doing something else, like twiddling my thumbs.

I just cannot rationalize the "compitition of the molecules" thing, and i cannot think of how random mutaions can kickstart life, I mean

DNA says nothing unless you have a language to speak it in.

the probibility problem

every other process in nature does not rely on "chance"

The accretion of mass into protogalaxies for example, random chance I think not

accretion of dust and gas in the solarsystem random chance, again, no, also the ability of mechanical systems(like water in a bathtub) automatically find equalibrium random occurances? no Physics the universe is chock full of examples of things automatically getting more complex, and "finding" equilibrium all on their own.

life, in all this confusion (according to darwinian evolution) is the odd one out.

Controlled by random chance, and enviromental constrictions only? I cannot honestly belive that. Yes I am well aware of the lack of conclusive evidence to promote this theory, but just look at life, can you honestly say that it is just a one in a 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 chance occurance?

and the mysterius nucleolus, with its protein factory, what does it do in all of this?

What i "believe" is

Proteins came first, they float around etc. (im going to call them scribes)

so, these scribs, float about all lazy like, and then, all of a sudden BOOM the temperature changes, and so does the scribes shape, now the new shape allows nucleotides to fit in the "creavaces"(sorry for the spelling) and attach to each other in a certain order

lets say

temp goes up----->scrib changes shape accordingly---> nucleotides can fit in certain pattern---->the scrib has now "spelled" hot

so basically the "scribe" invents a language to "explain" the changes in the enviroment Creating a primitive RNA "language". the more changes in the enviroment the bigger the vocabulary. then the RNA can in turn serve as the proteins "memory" of past events. Then as the RNA becomes more complex, it can express more things, and create proteins for certain temperatures, pHs and such and it gets more and more complicated and we wind up here.

(its way better that "compitition of the molecules" molecules dont say anything unless there is a pre exsisting "language" and molecules don't "compete" they sit there until something bumps into them)

Ta DA!!

I know that this is just ramblings, but "guided"( religion haters run away screaming now) evolution fits with observations of other systems in the universe sooooo much better than random evolution.

Now in all this you are tempted to point out that evolution does not have a "goal", but: what if mutations allow energy to flow better? to be more "efficient" if you will. Remember, energy likes to follow the path of least resistance, what if mutaions "allow" that to happen, in effect, giving mutations a "purpose" and creating a "goal" for the organism.

note: im not saying that random point mutations cannot occur, they do, im just saying there is no way that they can be responsible for the world we see today.

This guy is whacked.

Dude, your not off by much when you say the universe can be a bubble, and your free to imagen how the solarsystem works, but experiments have shown that gravity is not surface tension, but the curvature of space time by any objects with mass, this idea of objects being held by surface tension is nonsense, considering that the surfaces(as told by others on this tread) of the earth and the moon are not touching,thus it cannot be "surface" as you described, and tension is the pulling of a object by internal and external forces, if you mean gravitational tension, you are correct, you can see this when the tides come in. That is gravitational "tension" if you will. You are not "far" off, but far enough. You obviously like to mix reality with imagination.

hmmm.... interesting indeed. Thanks.

how about electro static cling? maybe its the new "gravity"?

perhaps you can have electro static plates that act to mimic gravity, and they could be used to counteract accelerative forces. so your ship can accelerate 100gs and you would just stand there not feeling a thing.

ed I applaud your perception if that accurately reflects what he intended. I am afraid I found Cs's posts, in this thread, to be directionless mumbo-jumbo filled with comparisons that, if taken literally, were nonsense, or, if seen as analogy were unhelpful. I suspect that the intelligence and logic you have found in those posts originates in your own mind, provided by your own skill at condensing sense and structure from vapours.

.......uh.. yes... I second that!

I am currently looking thru massive amounts of material concerning the mutaion of creatures big, bigger, and small. Mutations in the DNA seem to remove genetic information not slap on more, so in order for evolution to work, it must be adding relevant information to new enviromental factors that allow for the mutaions to rise. But since the DNA does not accomidate for random mutations what about protein? Could protein molecules change with the enviroment? could it be the protein that mutates first, then with its new Shape and information, add information relavant to the survival of the cell into the DNA thus altering the information encoded in the DNA?

Also, mutatiuons would not "edit" the DNA, the old DNA adapted to a previously suited enviroment is still there, so retreating back to the previous is possilbe, (so called de-evolving) but it does not remove DNA info once again, and if a certain gene is highly important, the protein will copy it into theDNA for further emphisis on that gene.

so its the Prions or some other protein molecules that react to the enviroment, change shape, then add relevant information to the DNA?

could you guys add any suggestions please

P.S don't shoot this hypothisis down before you remind yourself that no one person can adequetly explain the very nature of the mutaions of DNA any better than this far out hypothisis.

NO' date=' it is impossible to program or make something which is more intelligent than us because it will be based on our knowledge........

[an obvious overlooked fact']

 

you cant create something more clever than you, if it is based on your brain!!!!!

 

but it is highly possible to have AI which thinks quicker, that is possible, already, computer calculators are quicker than humans! just not cleverer, because it was based on be-known knowledge!

Thats bull, its like saying there can't be humans that have more knowledge that they had 3000 years ago, thats not true, If in fact spomehow we make a A.I. it will be able to learn and devise new ways to learn previously unknown things, thus at first it cannot be smarter than us, but since it will learn, it can surpass our level of intelligence.

oh... wait, thats what everyones been saying for the last 3 pages...

im going to read all the pages before i post from now on.....

This would be most interesting, it also means that if we could ever get to a "black hole, we might be able to study dark matter in high concentrations! and i also never liked the idea of black holes being gateways to other universes and times, that makes a already complicated universe even more complicated, who wants that?

but for now im staying a skeptic.

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/dinoblood.html

 

Just an interesting link I found that discusses a discovery in 1997 that sounds remarkably similar to the story being reported.

In that case the scientists found heme not hemoglobin, i read the reports from the scientists themselves, the YEC's did turn that into propaganda, you can find this at many YEC webpages.

Heme lasts wayyyyy longer than hemoglobin and is more stable, the YEC took that discovery way out of hand(to suit their purposes no less).

i think that we could use thermonuclear mines to do large scale construction projects, like a big resevoir for water storage. But only after we find a clean way to do it, like if we find out how to create a pure fusion device.

No more flooding mountain valleys and killing wildlife!!

hey that reminds me of maybe starting a Michael Jackson case thread!

yeah, another oddity that one cannot understand.

Im sure that i speak for many people around the world:

earth has lost yet another kind soul.

rofl

 

Okay' date=' so why is something like "Grand Theft Auto" okay then?[/quote']

 

well everyone knows that violence is not good, but all videogames have many other things in there as well, because seriously, if they were selling pure violence, it would be like manhunt, that game is twisted Most games with violence incorperate othewr themes like:

 

Adventure

plot

interesting characters

cool vehicles

interesting places/times

drama

just think of any violent game, they keep you playing it with these things, violence is a huge part, but lets face it, if the game was just you in a room with a chainsaw and you had to kill as many people as possible for points, only the angry loner/ sicko crowd would play, not little tommy from down the road.

 

now, we turn to violence on TV, same attributes as the games except

real

real danger

real death

real gore

real pain

but you only see the violence, not the soilders just being themselves, the medias not there for that they want to show you war the pure violence.

 

so trying to make a profit on pure violence is twisted and wrong.

You don't get adventure and plot out of real war, only death and pain.

The media also do this with other human tragedies, like when those two girls were kidnapped in the states, their stories were made into made for tv movies, and then, they were pitted against each other in prime time!! for ratings no less, they turned two little girls tragedies into a money makers, i think thats sick.

War has been recorded throughout history, I don't really see this as any different.

yes but those were in the form of documentaries, and the movies made were all about the tradgety of the war and how it changed the people that went there. But games are a different story, thats entertainment, but we dont mind, because we never went to war, so we think its fun.

It's no less appropriate than those ghastly videos that appear on the net, showing people being mown down by attack helicopters with vulcan cannons mounted on them, accompanied by ragey rock music.

i don't think the actual footage of these things is nearly as disturbing as the fact that alot of people ENJOY watching people get cut in half/slaughtered/mutilated/eviscerated and having their insides pulled out, those people make me want to puke. Bunch of angry rage filled bastards they are.

we can detect Black holes, surely there would be an equal number of white holes just as easy to detect if such a thing existed?

maybe black holes explode like miniature big bangs after all the other bodies of the universe die off, then there would be a huge flow of space time, so the universe gets even huger, and the white hole creates matter, so the universe is filled with primordial hydrogen all over again. Then all that we know happens again?

what the hell is that thing?

And yet you never see a rich pseudoscientist.

 

What a confusing world we live in.

Absolutly correct, these guys are the science version of the dudes who streak during superbowl games, they want their 15 minutes.

...Also known as ORME' date=' ormus, or m-state elements.

 

http://www.asc-alchemy.com/hudson.html

 

Basically this guy has found a way to extract 2400 ounces to the ton of rare metals(mainly from the platinum group) out of regular soil found on his farm in Arizona. He also claims this metal extract exhibits extremely odd properties such as acting as a superconductor at room temperate. Its very good read even though most of it is likely pseudoscience.[/quote']

 

why does it seem that every "new" metal or element that is found, it always corrisponds to our knowledge of atomic phisics and mettalurgical properties.

 

50 years ago its a new metal that will bend, then return to normal, then its a super light element that is super strong, but then now its toned down to a room temperature superconducter.

 

The point is, all these "discoveries are always metals and stuff that is JUST beyond out capacities, so its always new and interesting. 50 years ago heat treated aluminum and titanium alloys did not exsist, and a super light high tensile strenght alloy shows up. Now its a room temperature superconducter, which is out of our reach, these people are feeding off of the publics ignorance, or "dangling the carrot in front of the horse"

 

It is my quasi professional opinion that this is total bunk.

oh yes, also,

when i was reading about solar system formation, it seems that most of the heaviler elements ier, iron sink to the "bottom" and lighter elements "float" to the surface, why would their be enough iron in the soil to turn it red, when it should have "sunk" 4.5 billion years ago, when all the inner planets were still molten?

LOL, i would laugh if it turned out these pictures are from northern Canada.

Im sure you all seen the old and mabye the new pictures of the face on mars, the old shows, well a face, and you cant see all the details, but you can see how the shadow covers the landscape. But in the new pic, the "face" is shown at the same angle, at the (more or less) the same t.o.d.

now i know it could be the angle to the sun, but the two shadows did not look in any way the same, the first had a smooth boundary, but the second was much smaller and rougher, and not just alittle bit, it looks like the shadows of a mountain range(up down up) not smooth.

i can't find two comparisons for you guys, buit if anyone else can, that would be great.