Chlorine Gas?

[Anjruu]

I was wondering just how deadly Cl2 is. Is it on the order of Insta-Death? Or more like being trapped in a room full of it for a couple of minutes will make you woozy?

[insane_alien]

What sort of concentrations are you talking about? the concenration your likely to find in the average swimming pool or the levels where it was used in gas attacks on the trenches in WWI. It's a pretty toxic substance since its so reactive. if inhaled it literally rips the cells of your lungs apart. there are even recorded cases of victims coughing up parts of their own lungs in some sick nazi experiment.

[woelen]

As with all toxic substances. It is the dose which makes a poison. Chlorine is dangerous at a few tens of ppm's. Below that it can be quite irritating already. At a concentration of a few percents it will make you choke at the first whif and it will kill you within a few minutes.

[YT2095]

actualy, I`m not even sure Chlorine would be classed as Toxic in the sense of being a poison per se.

would Toxic be the right word to use?

Fluorine is Toxic/Poison.

Chlorine just as writen above causes Physical damge and literaly rips your cells apart, perhaps Corrosive my be a better word?

 

thoughts?...

[insane_alien]

actualy' date=' I`m not even sure Chlorine would be classed as Toxic in the sense of being a poison per se.

would Toxic be the right word to use?

Fluorine is Toxic/Poison.

Chlorine just as writen above causes Physical damge and literaly rips your cells apart, perhaps Corrosive my be a better word?

 

thoughts?...[/quote']

 

It kills you either way, and fast at that... i don't see much of a difference, although corrosive is probably more accurate since it doesn't really have the time to poison you with the lungs being ripped apart and all that.

[woelen]

Poisons are classified in two classes.

 

Poisons can be corrosive. Examples of corrosive poisons are HNO3, Cl2, Br2, H2SO4, NaOH.

Poisons can be systemic. A systemic poison need not be corrosive at all. Examples of systemic poisons are PbCl2, NiSO4, SeO2.

 

Some poisons are both corrosive and systemic, an example being HF.

 

Many people easily recognize the corrosive poisons. Their effect is immediate and visible. Systemic poisons are more insidious. Many systemic poisons are not corrosive and many people think they can be handled without special precautions. A salt like NiSO4.6H2O looks very innocent, but it can cause cancer, so it is not innocent at all.

 

Many poisons, which only are corrosive poisons are not as bad for the environment as many people think. E.g. conc. H2SO4 or HNO3, when rinsed down the drain and diluted with a lot of water, quickly is destroyed in nature. The acid is neutralized and only the non-toxic nitrate or sulfate remains behind. Systemic poisons usually have a much longer lasting presence in the environment and for those reasons one has to be more careful with their waste.

[YT2095]

Interesting

 

I wasn`t aware of the 2 classes, I figured Chlorine to be "Poison" in much the same way as a Shotgun or 1000c air when you breathe it is. very lethal, but not in itself "Toxic" per se.

[rthmjohn]

If anyone here has every smelled chlorine, it's a pretty nasty gas. I accidentally got a whif when making some. I was coughing for a few days after that. My suggestion: don't play with chlorine gas because it can kill you.

[RyanJ]

If anyone here has every smelled chlorine, it's a pretty nasty gas. I accidentally got a whif when making some. I was coughing for a few days after that. My suggestion: don't play with chlorine gas because it can kill you.

 

It is indeed, its used as a warfare agent for just that reason. How would you like HCl forming in your lungs... I don't fancy the idea much

 

I have also smelled the stuff, anyone who has been to a pool has... I agree with rthmjohn - don't inhail it! Could be worse, it could be fluorine...

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[YT2095]

actualy, in a large of concentrated "smell" of it, you can`t actualy smell it at all, it knocks you back like being hit in the head with a sledge hammer, you just don`t know WHAT hit you, as bad as any electric shock can be.

 

perfectly Horrible stuff!

[insane_alien]

Could be worse, it could be fluorine...

 

Could be worse still, it could be HOT fluorine!

[RyanJ]

Could be worse still, it could be HOT fluorine!

 

Yes indeed... cold is bad enough - I'm not even shure you'd be able to tell the difference

 

actualy' date=' in a large of concentrated "smell" of it, you can`t actualy smell it at all, it knocks you back like being hit in the head with a sledge hammer, you just don`t know WHAT hit you, as bad as any electric shock can be.

 

perfectly Horrible stuff! [/quote']

 

I think we will take your word for it, a small smell was more then enough to make my eyes water thanks.

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[woelen]

Well, chlorine is nasty stuff, when handled incorrectly, but it also is really fun to play with it... real science comes with a certain risk .

 

It is as with many other things. A motor bike can be a beautiful device, but in the hands of the wrong person it is a killer machine (either for yourself or for someone else). You also need the skills to use it in a proper and safe way. So, don't tell me that noone should drive a motor bike, people, skilled to do so, are perfectly suitable to drive a motor bike.

 

In this way I also look at dangerous chemicals in my home experiments. The really beautiful experiments can be done with energetic, reactive and hence toxic (corrosive!) compounds. Chlorine is just one of them...

So, don't tell me to not make chlorine and not play with it. But indeed, you have to know what you are doing, just as with a motor bike.

[insane_alien]

Woelen: i have nothing wrong with people who have the skills doing experiments wit dangerous stuff. its just the k3wls and inexperienced i have a problem with. I don't like to see or hear of people getting hurt or dead while trying to do a chemistry experiment. it kinda puts a bad light on home chemistry.

[Anjruu]

I was talking about the electrolysis of molten NaCl. Although you get Na metal, which I hear is cool if handled correctly, you also get Cl2. I was wondering, if done outside and far away from myself when the experiment was running, if it would still be too dangerous.

[insane_alien]

it wouldn't be wise to have exposed molten Na. it is very reactive with air and water. the Na will be liquid since its melting point is lower than NaCl. i wouldn't advise this method without the proper equipment and training/experience.

[Anjruu]

If the NaCl was to be aqueous, however, the water would oxidize before the Na ion. So the reaction is essentially impossible for me to run? Ah well, that's why I check here first.

[woelen]

The chlorine, formed in the electrolysis of molten NaCl is the smaller of the problems you'll have with that reaction. What do you think of having 800+ C molten NaCl around? What if some of this splashes around? What about the chance of getting a sodium fire at 800 C? Indeed, forget about the electrolysis of molten NaCl. The formation of chlorine gas would not stop me from doing that (doing things outside is a very good guard against chlorine poisoning), it is all the other technical problems which simply stop me from even attempting this reaction.

 

If you really want to make Na-metal, you could try molten NaOH. This melts a little over 300 C. Bit still, this is a VERY dangerous thing to do. It is MUCH more dangerous than making chlorine gas from e.g. bleach and hydrochloric acid. There is a big chance of getting a sodium fire and having molten NaOH sprayed around. I would say, forget about that. Also I, with quite some experience in home chemistry, also with dangerous compounds like hydrogen cyanide, bromine, hydrazoic acid, etc. have never attempted to do the experiment with the molten NaOH. Poison is one danger, molten corrosive material is another (larger) danger.

 

@insane_alien: indeed, k3wls are a bad thing for home chemistry and they do harm to the hobby of home chemistry. But, that does not stop me from doing the more controversial experiments and publishing them on my website. Of course, I provide a lot of safety info and I warn about the risks. The next experiment on my website will probably will be with Mn2O7 (a volatile green oil, with purple vapor, which sets every organic thing on fire, with which it comes into contact). If I have results, I'll post them here.

[insane_alien]

ooo Mn2O7, doesn't that have to be kept below -13*C otherwise it eh, decomposes violently.

[jdurg]

Yeah chlorine is pretty nasty stuff. I remember when I first tried to synthesize my own chlorine. I was under the impression that it was a visible green gas, so when I made my mixture of bleach and acids I was dissapointed that I didn't see a green cloud forming in my little reaction vessel. Being a complete and utter retards, I opened up the vessel and took a whiff of the apparently clear gas inside. BAD MOVE! Just as YT mentioned, it felt like someone hit me in the chest with a hammer. I was coughing horrifically for a few days and just felt like total crap for a good long while. I'll NEVER forget the choking, painful odor of chlorine gas. (It wasn't until later that I realized just how pale Cl2 really is. You need to look through a good deal of it, or look at it with a white background to really see it well).

[woelen]

ooo Mn2O7, doesn't that have to be kept below -13*C otherwise it eh, decomposes violently.

It can be kept at room temperature. I already made this stuff before. But indeed, it is very unstable. I do not store the stuff. I make it and use it immediately.

 

I opened up the vessel and took a whiff of the apparently clear gas inside. BAD MOVE!

Wow, Jdurg, that indeed is not a smart move. I've never breathed more than a whiff of the gas at concentrations well below 1% and even that gives quite some irritation. However, when you go to fresh air again, then the effect is gone immediately. Of course breathing a high percentage gas by sticking your nose in a pot, filled with chlorine gas is a whole other thing .

At least chlorine is a honest poison , it has no hidden effects, it bites at once and it bites hard! That makes you learn quickly . There are many more dangerous poisons, because they have no apparent direct effect, but they slowly make you sick, an example being Pb(2+)-salts. They provide no warning. When you notice effects, it is too late.