Peterkin

Sure. In the same year that grandmother made her mistake, a few other people made mistakes. No big deal compared to mad bombers, but still.... Do you actually know what those all possible information sources are? Neither do the police when they begin the investigation. In the imaginary two-dimensional scenario, B/W answers work. In reality, they do not. And that's what you don't know when you make the decision you can't ever take back. Yeah, but then, you're sure about everything. I'm not.

They already do. Multiple someones. All the time. I thought the purpose of saving a civilized society was not to become more and more like the enemies that want to bring down a civilized society. But we have failed: with this generally shared notion of "well, we have to do whatever works" and "if they're doing it, we have to do it, too" all societies are sinking toward the Dark Ages.

...except maybe your immortal soul (some people believe they have one) and maybe the civilization you just saved....

That's what Pinochet said, sir.

That may be because none of your interlocutors have actually been on either side of that scenario. As I have said - repeatedly: If. But. Maybe. It depends. I do not know. All of the above. And i still don't know whether I would, or could, carry it out. Not easily. Amnesty International has a lot of stats and case studies, but we can't know how many more they didn't discover. It's easier to get records from the US - this is just law-enforcement agencies, dealing with ordinary citizen criminals, not military or spy agencies.

Better be on the safe side and shoot a few relatives than risk being assaulted by burglar? No, the probability is quite high. In a culture of guns, accidental shooting of family members is common. You can't calculate the probability without collecting the information: that's just guess-work. Criminal investigation and prosecution can't rely on guess-work: you have to take the trouble of collecting all possible information, rather than just beat any old statement out of a prisoner. That depends entirely on who does the justifying and what their moral tenets are. Whether another person - more to the point, 12 other persons - accepts their justification will determine their fate. Whether they convince themselves will determine the quality of their sleep. It will never be unanimous. Some people have more absolute standards of morality - at least in theory - while others are pragmatic on a statistical basis - at least in theory. We have each explained our position. The main problem with any law, code, standard, principle or directive is the people who apply it. Again, it's only in the contrived imaginary example that torturing the prisoner is a guarantee of getting accurate information in time to stop the negative event. The kid might already be dead before your captive was brought in, or while you were exhausting all those other avenues. The member of the terrorist cell you captured may not know where his co-conspirator finally left the bomb, or when it's set to go off, or how to disarm it. He may deliberately been given false information and left as a decoy, or might lie of his own accord for the cause. You might get there just in time to be blown up with the other people, or waste time and resources hunting down false leads. In the very best case, extracting information from such a source in such a manner is chancy. Of course it would be tried in desperation by many, probably most, agencies. But as policy, it sucks. Probably.... That's not guaranteed, either. None of the sequelae or long-term effects are known or knowable when the decision is taken. In Syria, China, Cambodia, Argentina, Ireland.... the Vatican archives....

She heard a noise, thought an intruder was coming in, shot before she looked. I was saying that people make tragic mistakes when they take drastic action without thinking. Isn't exactly detailed information. These "thought-experiments" are made up to have only two facets, instead of the 68 or so a real crime has. I don't make life-and-death decisions on a hunch, or a layman's diagnosis of the mental illness of an anonymous stranger, or a cardboard mock-up. Nobody does. People in the field - any field - deal with the complex, various, messy situations they have to confront, one situation at a time, one decision at a time, based on all the hundreds of facts available to them in that moment, in that situations. The only part of this question anyone can answer truthfully is "What do you believe to be to right/wrong?" The only honest answer to "What would you do if...?" is "I don't know." (Unless, of course, you have actually been in such situations and had to do something - but then you probably wouldn't discuss it in public.)

Under what? Where did I say can never know about anyone? The scenario in the example is contrived and very unlikely to occur in real life, where we actually make ethical decisions. The situation you cited where the perpetrator of a crime was caught in the act obviously doesn't apply here. The turnaround for forensic DNA test in Canada is one two three days; in the US, two weeks to six months. Unless the perpetrator had been caught on video actually committing the crime, you'll have to wait for proof. Yes, might choose a lesser wrong. Not this greater one you advocate. You were. I've got competent cops out searching with dogs, questioning witnesses, checking street cam footage, canvassing the neighbourhood, flashing suspect photos at people. Not once. Not ever. Under no circumstances. If I'm running the investigation, the parents are kept in their home, under close scrutiny by sympathetic officers, gently prompted for possibly relevant background information, are given warm beverages and updates whenever some progress is made. They have nothing, nothing whatsoever, to do with the police work. The father is too volatile, unpredictable, has no training in interrogation; he would screw it up; we'd lose the kid, the case and the whole shebang. Oh, fer sure! Just as soon as he's out of hospital. It's her 7-year-old grandchild. Better throw away that key! I don't know the details of that one.(At least I don't have to deal with distraught parents with iron bars!) I would do whatever I believed in the circumstances that I needed to do, within my capabilities. But I wouldn't ask, or allow, someone else to carry out any illegal or immoral action that I might decide is necessary.

... without having caught him red-handed, which does not apply in any of these scenarios where the person in custody is required to provide information regarding their crime. Stepping outside the house and crossing the road have different consequences; stepping outside the front door and stepping outside the 15th storey window have different consequences. Exactly why it's the police officer who has to take responsibility: the father can't think straight. A few years ago an old lady in Florida awoke to heard an intruder entering her room. She grabbed her gun and shot her grandson. There are dozens of these. People under the influence of strong emotion are not entirely rational, their actions are unpredictable, the long term consequences of those actions are unforeseeable. There has to be a steady, sober, uninvolved adult in charge.

He's also assuming that the father is "a hulking brute", which most fathers are not; that he's only "slightly emotional, angry", which most fathers in this situation are not; that his temper and his actions are controlled and controllable, which most people in this situation are not; that the damage he inflicts on the prisoner will be relatively bloodless, which is unlikely; that the the prisoner will be rendered willing to divulge accurate information while still conscious and capable of coherent speech, which is not at all certain. OTH, this is no less contrived and unrealistic than the 100% certainty of the suspect's guilt, without having been caught red-handed. What Beecee appears indifferent to is the long-term effect of the interrogation on the father, and the family, particularly if he fails to elicit the information in time to save his child. Also, incidentally, the fact that he's a civilian and legally liable for whatever he breaks -- plus any evidence he acquires against the kidnappers is inadmissible in court, so they'll probably walk, and he'll have to hunt them down, once he's served his aggravated assault conviction, and go up again for double homicide. But maybe he'll be mad as a Hatter by then and serve that term in a medical facility. Still tough on the kiddies.... Decisions have consequences that we can't always predict.

There's your error!

There is always room for improvement in jurisprudence and corrections. Complaints should be investigated - many have merit. That may be considered under the "cruel and unusual" clause. Anyway, torture is generally defined in law, just as it's clear to each individual. As The Vat said early on: We know what it is!

No. According to the laws of several lands, as written, the definition of torture is general regarding physical or mental suffering, deliberately inflicted by an official on a prisoner - but they explicitly exclude standard criminal proceedings and punishments. Canada subscribes to the UN International Convention, which is broad and general - inevitably, given the wide variance of the nations' legal codes. It's not a matter of what you don't like; it's a matter of what the majority voting population of a country considers abhorrent. It's a constantly negotiated legal process.

But that order of priorities only works -and it's not a given that it works all the time - from a specific personal POV. As such, it's subject to change with age, needs and circumstance, and cannot be applied to the polity at large. From the legislative POV, "what's best" can't ever apply to everybody, so it must be restricted according some other order of priorities: the majority by number, the wealthiest X%, the most exalted individual, the bluest bloodline, the most privileged ethnic group, the dominant religious group, the most powerful gender, the most valued skill-set --- some kind of class system. Usually, the stated priority is greatest number, but that's never how laws really affect the population.

Does anyone really know the full answer to that? Nature, nurture, culture; parents, school, church, personal experiences and encounters, laws of the land, readings, arguments in smoky rooms late into the night, soul-searching well into the morning.... One builds one's moral system over a lifetime. as I mentioned early on, the ethical system of a society should come from not knowing on which side of the "situation" each legislator may someday find themself.

That, too has been amply answered. No, it is NEVER right, under any circumstances. Even if it's less wrong than some alternative, it's still wrong. This isn't complicated. What's complicated is the psychology of the people involved in legislating, authorizing and carrying out morally grey procedures for morally murky purposes.

Just to make octuply clear: Yes, I might do it; I don't know. Yes, I would ban it, unhesitatingly.

Unfortunately, no. You get one reconstructed and delayed tunnel or bridge for the price of two. Some errors may be doe to poor communication.... or miscalculation. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/18407/embarrassing-moments-engineering-and-what-they-taught-us

That all happened on Page 1. No, even in the very remote possibility of torture being the only available path to a positive outcome, it is never right. Even in the unlikely situation where it is the lesser of two wrongs, it is still wrong. The perpetrator of such a wrong may be able to justify it on a grey scale, but cannot make it ethically correct. The question has been answered, on its own terms. Repeatedly. The contrived scenario, however, is very far from any real situation in which real people have to make real decisions.

I have explained till I'm red, white and blue in the face! I take moral responsibility for the wrongs I may do, for my own reasons, with my own hands. I don't make other people, especially victims, do my dirty work.

NO

I've answered all of them at least twice. There are different wrongs; I would consider some wrongs, not all possible wrongs. I have explained why. At last twice. If you, as the detective in charge, send a victim (which is what the father of a kidnapped child is) into the cell with a prisoner you tell him is absolutely guilty, that father is taking on the responsibility of the interrogator (you). If he fails to extract the information, or it's too late, or it's incorrect, that becomes his failure (and it should be yours.) He puts his own morality on the line in order to save his child, and it later turns out he did it for no gain, or to a wrongfully accused suspect, it becomes his tragedy (though it was your mistake). I might threaten, bully, even beat a suspect if I were convinced he had the information - and answer for my methods afterward, and pay whatever penance was required. I would live with my decision to do wrong. But I would never pass that responsibility on to a victim. That's the issue of disagreement. Slightly emotional, angry? You expect him to be controlled enough to get reliable information from a captive you just told him with absolute certainty intended to hurt, violate a kill his child. That's a lot to ask of "hulking brute" : you must assume he's cool-headed.

Is that how you would feel in his place? I say there is nothing obvious about a passive guard being able to stop an accidental manslaughter, or a prisoner unconscious or otherwise rendered incapable of speech. None of your caveats changes the moral issue of shoving your responsibility onto a person whose emotional condition, capabilities and limits you don't know and put him in a situation whose outcome you don't know. You are in control: whatever happens is on you. In the stated circumstances, in a real life situation, it's very unlikely that you would know at this stage. The search would not have been delayed for laboratory findings or comparison of time-lines or witness statements, or any correct investigative procedures. And that also doesn't alter your evasion of moral responsibility for what happens. So, what table are you pounding with this just-so-happens-big-cool-headed father?

I did. You put a hulking brute, who is out of his mind with rage and fear for his child, in with a smaller, weaker prisoner you told him is 100% guilty of kidnapping his child. What did you expect to happen? I do not deny having said that I might do something I consider to be wrong. Can you really not see the difference between doing myself that I can take responsibility for, and causing another person - someone whose capabilities and limits I don't know - to do something for which he has to take the responsibility? That, BTW, is not a relevant case. The information there is already known. If you had caught the kidnapper in the act, you would already have the child and wouldn't need to extract information.

Sure. The father kills the perp; the child is also killed because he doesn't get the information; later the father kills himself for having failed to protect his child; the mother falls into a profound depression; their other two traumatized children grow up in the shadow of this single tragic event.... I'm glad it wasn't my decision precipitated this sequence. I never did. I admitted that, in an extreme situation, I might be capable of doing what I consider wrong to prevent a greater wrong. I did not ever consider encouraging another person - especially one who is incapable of rational thought atm - to do so.