Jkemp

Strange,

Heat energy is the clarification to what I referred to earlier as "life" energy. I didn't realize vitalism was a possibility, and made an assumption when skimming through an article on vitalism the energy in which it was referring, was conventional energy i.e. heat and not it's own unique type of energy.

Klaynos,

I was having a discussion with someone about how life does not create energy. My argument was life does create energy. Although by applying, properly, the conservation law they are correct. However that was not their argument

Delta 1212, that makes sense, thank you. I would also agree; I did not mean to imply "life energy." Acme; you are correct sir or madam it did/does belong in philosophy. The point you make is helpful, thank you.

Klaynos,

Straight from wiki:

In physics, energy is a property of objects, transferable among them via fundamental interactions, which can be converted inform but not created or destroyed.

 

I believe this is exactly what Acme stated...

Clearly I need to pay a little more attention in my Physics classes... I had never considered the conservation law of energy to apply to the entire universe... I have a lot to consider and learn about energy.

According to conservation of energy, energy can neither be created (produced) nor destroyed by itself. It can only be transformed. The total inflow of energy into a system must equal the total outflow of energy from the system, plus the change in the energy contained within the system. Energy is subject to a strict global conservation law; that is, whenever one measures (or calculates) the total energy of a system of particles whose interactions do not depend explicitly on time, it is found that the total energy of the system always remains constant.^[15]

Richard Feynman said during a 1961 lecture:^[16]

There is a fact, or if you wish, a law, governing all natural phenomena that are known to date. There is no known exception to this law—it is exact so far as we know. The law is called the conservation of energy. It states that there is a certain quantity, which we call energy, that does not change in manifold changes which nature undergoes. That is a most abstract idea, because it is a mathematical principle; it says that there is a numerical quantity which does not change when something happens. It is not a description of a mechanism, or anything concrete; it is just a strange fact that we can calculate some number and when we finish watching nature go through her tricks and calculate the number again, it is the same.

Do you really mean the creation of energy (from nothing)?

 

No, although that is an idea the Big Bang Theory puts forward.

In which case you are proposing the impossible.

 

Yes, I agree and I'm not proposing that at all.

do you just mean the conversion of matter or energy into another form of energy?

 

Yes, sort of, again going back to the original question (which I very poorly phrased); would it be wrong/improper to consider life a form of energy?

what energy are you talking about?

 

That would be very tough to completely answer, but let's start with heat.

Are you suggesting that life itself, is some sort of energy?

 

Yes, that is exactly what I'm suggesting. Life can/could/should be classified as a type of energy.

A form of vitalism?

 

I did not know anything about vitalism; but having read a little (I will read a lot more). My initial answer is yes. Thank you for the information!

Phi,

Given the context of the question and using this definition, "of or in agreement with the character or makeup of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something." My answer is no.

Strange,

I agree with you to a point, and you are correct. If we follow what we do know, and what we have learned, there is a pattern. The more we learn about gravity, matter, energy and life; we begin to see a bigger picture. My thought is life is simply an extension, a natural part of the universe. (This is technically noise)

Life can be created, humans have done it. http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/05/21/venter.qa/ The relevance of the question would be in how we frame/classify the product "life." My thinking was/is gravity, matter and energy are used to create life and the creation of life can/should be considered the creation of energy.(philosophical perspective) (This is technically noise also)

I sincerely don't believe earth is the only rock in the universe capable of producing life, I'm confident there are so many more unique things in the universe than us. (This is pure noise)

I agree, it's not science.

Human free will is an illusion.

p31 Ridicules free will under the presumption that it had to arise by evolution alone.

"Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets."

"It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is detrmined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is an illusion."

This is the 5th item down: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/faithpathh/hawkingpres2.html

To the second question the universe being an Isolated System as defined below

What is an Isolated System?

A system is a collection of two or more objects. An isolated system is a system thatF is free from the influence of a net external force that alters the momentum of the system. There are two criteria for the presence of a net external force; it must be...

• a force that originates from a source other than the two objects of the system

A system in which the only forces that contribute to the momentum change of an individual object are the forces acting between the objects themselves can be considered an isolated system.

Consider the collision of two balls on the billiards table. The collision occurs in an isolated system as long as friction is small enough that its influence upon the momentum of the billiard balls can be neglected. If so, then the only unbalanced forces acting upon the two balls are the contact forces that they apply to one another. These two forces are considered internal forces since they result from a source within the system - that source being the contact of the two balls. For such a collision, total system momentum is conserved.

Thank you very much for the feedback. If I had it to do over I would.

I would be happy to answer some questions but in the end it's just noise. I'm confident inside a black hole there is no chocolate... but you never know. I'm just learning and had a very juvenile idea.

I will take my ball and go home. Thank you very much for the time and effort.

Strange,

Point taken on non sequitur, I will focus on this.

What evidence do you have that any matter has a "purpose"? But perhaps you need to define what you mean by purpose.

And then explain how your idea of purpose is relevant to the violation of physical laws.

 

Newtons 3rd law is where I'm coming from -- Life is an equal and opposite reaction.

Swan,

The conservation law applies to isolated systems. I don't think the universe is an isolated system.

The fact is life is created from particles in the universe, and like any other matter it serves a purpose.

I do understand the question is similar to the question "where does time begin" or "where does space begin/end" to a certain extent. Although it seems life can/should be framed or observed in the same manner as other particles. We like to think we are more special than we are.

John,

I'm not ignoring anything, and I could very well be wrong. I think perhaps you could concede that we have observed very little (source below)

f you were to be very generous with labeling what we've explored so far, and take the volume of a sphere with the centre at the Sun and the radius equal to how far Voyager 1 has reached(about 125 AU), it would encompass the volume equal to 0.032 cubic light-years.
The observable universe's radius is estimated at about 45 billion light years, so its total volume would be 3.7*10^32 cubic light years, or 37 with 31 zeroes.
This makes our solar system as 'explored' by Voyager be a whooping 0.00000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the observable universe.

But, as mentioned earlier, it's a very generous number. We don't have probes around every planet. We had probes fly by every planet, if that counts. We've landed probes on just a few, and they rarely remained operational for long.

Bottom line: Earth is a tiny speck in the mind-boggling vastness of space.

Read more: http://www.physicsforums.com

So perhaps there are different forms of "life" out there in the small portion we haven't observed. But clearly you know a lot.

Swan,

The quote does come from the link, you'll need to scroll down.

John,

I would argue you can't prove energy came before life, and I'm not on some jesus or god trip here. Simply put and objectively looking at the universe; life is a product of the universe and it creates energy. It had never occurred to me that life is, governed by a specific set of laws or rules, no different than a comet, or a star or any particle in the universe. Thus this is the origin of the question.

So to clarify, or amend, my original question; and at the risk of creating "noise"; Given the laws of physics is it acceptable to say that the creation of life is the creation of energy?

The assertion is based on the following:

p31 Ridicules free will under the presumption that it had to arise by evolution alone.

"Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets."

"It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is an illusion."

source: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/faithpathh/hawkingpres2.html

By creating life, the universe creates energy and life plays the same role as any other energy source.

Sorry for the unclear post, it's my first one... shocker.

The universe creates energy by creating life.

Regards,

Jason Kemp