granpa Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) No metallic hydrogen in Saturn All planets from 1 Jupiter Mass to 60 Jupiter masses have the same radius. This suggests that metallic hydrogen only occupies 1/60 of the volume of Jupiter. Thats 1/4 of the radius. The surface of the gas giant is defined as the point where the pressure of the atmosphere is 1 bar, Scale height = the vertical distance over which the density and pressure fall by a factor of 1/e. saturn Scale height: 59.5 km jupiter Scale height: 27 km Below the Frenkel line the fluids are "rigid" and "solid-like", whereas above it fluids are "soft" and "gas-like". 76850km = polar radius of jupiter (76850km-300km) = 76550km = Frenkel line for jupiter 60 g/cm^3 = Metallic hydrogen density 0.25*76550 km = rmhc = radius of metallic hydrogen core in jupiter (4/3) * pi * (0.25*76550km)^3 * 60 g/cm^3 in earth masses = 295 earth masses of metallic hydrogen in jupiter Mass of Jupiter = 317.8 earth masses mass of Jupiters liquid hydrogen ocean = ((4/3) * pi * (76550km)^3 -(4/3) * pi * (0.25*76550km)^3) * 0.0794 g/cm^3 in earth masses = 24.6 earth masses (0.75*76550km)(0.0794g/cm^3) * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (1-1/0.25)/(1-0.25) in bar = 4,517,416 bar = pressure at which hydrogen becomes metallic inside Jupiter 1.326 = density of Jupiter (0.75*76,550km) = depth of liquid hydrogen 0.0794 g/cm^2 = estimated density of 0.75 liquid hydrogen (0.071) + 0.25 liquid helium (0.125) 2.528 * (9.8 m/s^2) = surface gravity of Jupiter (1-1/0.25)/(1-0.25) accounts for increase of gravity with depth = (integral of 1/x^2 from 1 to 0.25)/(integral of 1 from 1 to 0.25) Saturn reaches 1,341,458 bar at 0.25 from center (1-0.25) * (54300km-357km) * (0.0794g/cm^3) * (10.44m/s^2) * (1-1/0.25)/(1-0.25) in bar = 1,341,458 bar This suggests that there is absolutely no metallic hydrogen in Saturn Earth reaches 1.16 million bar at 2900 km depth which is enough to make metallic oxygen (2900km) * (4g/cm^3) * (10m/s^2) in bar Perhaps the inner core is metallic oxygen rather than iron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_oxygen#Metallic_oxygen Edited September 9, 2016 by granpa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 60 g/cm^3 = Metallic hydrogen density According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen "In March 1996, a group of scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory reported that they had serendipitously produced, for about a microsecond at temperatures of thousands of kelvins, pressures of over a million atmospheres (>100 GPa) and density of approximately 0.6 g/cm3,[16] the first identifiably metallic hydrogen.[17]" Where did you find 60 g/cm^3, if I may ask.. ? Edited September 9, 2016 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 That was the first thing I explained -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 ! Moderator Note Moved to Speculations. BTW - non-answers to simple questions will not be tolerated. Sensei asked a reasonable questions - answer it please. Do not respond to this moderation other than via the reporting system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) That was the first thing I explained Where? Because I don't see.. Or don't understand what do you mean.. Human made metallic Hydrogen has density 0.6 g/cm3, you mentioned 100 times higher density 60 g/cm3.. If somebody would mention water with 100 g/cm3, everybody would know that it's no more water, rather Hydrogen and Oxygen plasma.. Core of the Sun has density 150 g/cm3, and in such plasma there are fusion reactions.. Your's 60 g/cm3 is 40% from density of plasma in the Sun's core.. Near the core of the Sun there is 40 g/cm3 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_core Edited September 9, 2016 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 Core of the Sun has density 150 g/cm3, and in such plasma there are fusion reactions.. Your's 60 g/cm3 is 40% from density of plasma in the Sun's core.. Near the core of the Sun there is 40 g/cm3 according tohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_core The core of the Sun is probably metallic helium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 ! Moderator Note granpa last chance - answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) Considering how abundant oxygen and carbon are in the universe I would have to assume that the core of the Sun is made of fully degenerate metallic oxygen and metallic carbon All planets from 1 Jupiter Mass to 60 Jupiter masses have the same radius. The density of jupiter is 1.33 g/cm^3 A 60 jupiter mass brown dwarf is about 60 times as dense and made mostly of metallic hydrogen. 60 g/cm^3 = Metallic hydrogen density This suggests that metallic hydrogen only occupies 1/60th of the volume of Jupiter. Thats 1/4th of the radius. Edited September 10, 2016 by granpa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzwood Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 "Considering how abundant oxygen and carbon are in the universe I would have to assume that the core of the Sun is made of fully degenerate metallic oxygen and metallic carbon" Any evidence of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) If jupiter were entirely made of liquid hydrogen it would be 178,000km in radius (4/3) * pi * (178000km)^3 * 0.0794 g/cm^3 in earth masses = 314 earth masses its surface gravity would be 3.988 m/s^2 G*317 earth masses/(178000km)^2 = 3.988 m/s^2 the pressure at the center would be 280,000 bar 0.5*(178000km)(0.0794g/cm^3) * (3.988m/s^2) in bar = 280000 bar not enough pressure to make metallic hydrogen Hydrogen and helium account for 98% of the mass of the universe. (If jupiter formed from the collapse of a gas cloud instead of being spun off the sun then 2% of jupiter should be elements other than hydrogen and helium. Thats 6 earth masses 3 earth masses of that is oxygen alone 1.5 earth masses is carbon If a 6 Earth mass body about the size of earth existed in the center of Jupiter than it would increase the pressure by (178000km)(0.0794g/cm^3) * 0.0377^2*6*(9.8m/s^2) * (1-1/0.0377)/(1-0.0377) in bar = 280,000 bar Still not enough pressure to make metallic hydrogen Edited September 10, 2016 by granpa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 "All planets from 1 Jupiter Mass to 60 Jupiter masses have the same radius. "Got any evidence for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 You didn't know that? I thought it was well-known -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 Considering how abundant oxygen and carbon are in the universe I would have to assume that the core of the Sun is made of fully degenerate metallic oxygen and metallic carbon That whole hydrogen fusion thing is bogus, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 Huh? Fusion occurs at the surface of the core Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 Can you cite your sources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 You didn't know that? I thought it was well-known Nobody asked you if it was well known did they? So, why did you post that, rather than actually answering the question? Do you mean this sort of thing? http://phl.upr.edu/library/notes/standardmass-radiusrelationforexoplanets If so, perhaps you might like to get the numbers right; it's rather less than the mass of Jupiter to rather more than 60 times that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 NASA disagrees with you http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/interior.shtml also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_core How much Neon, Silicon, Magnesium and Iron do you think is present in the sun? You don't get fusion processes for helium until the star leaves the main sequence (it needs to be hotter than you have for H fusion), and the heavier elements require stars more massive than the sun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_nucleosynthesis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 Lol That question was already answered Saying you thought it was common knowledge is not an answer. Do you have a credible reference for this claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 Huh? Fusion occurs at the surface of the core img=http://www2.astro.psu.edu/users/cpalma/astro10/Images/FG12_17.JPG Can you explain what you think this diagram represents? I fail to see how it is relevant to the discussion. To support your pint, you might want to provide a link to where you got the image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 11, 2016 Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 he posted a link dude -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 he posted a link dude So they don't have the same radius. (And you didn't provide the information) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) Good grief It took me 20 seconds to Google it http://beyondearthlyskies.blogspot.com/2016/07/dwarf-planets-to-low-mass-stars.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf#Low-mass_brown_dwarfs_vs._high-mass_planets A remarkable property of brown dwarfs is that they are all roughly the same radius as Jupiter. At the high end of their mass range (60–90 MJ), the volume of a brown dwarf is governed primarily by electron-degeneracy pressure,[26] as it is in white dwarfs; at the low end of the range (10 MJ), their volume is governed primarily by Coulomb pressure, as it is in planets. The net result is that the radii of brown dwarfs vary by only 10–15% over the range of possible masses. This can make distinguishing them from planets difficult. Edited September 12, 2016 by granpa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 ! Moderator Note granpa You insufferable attitude will not be allowed to continue. You are making bold claims which to an extent run against the current ideas - when people ask questions you MUST answer them. Expressions of incredulity concerning members lack of knowledge, tantrums suggesting others should look it up themselves, claims to have already answered, and straight ignoring requests will not be tolerated. If you continue I will lock the thread. Last Chance. do not respond to this moderation except via the reporting system. NB. I have hidden your response to your previous warning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 If the sun began as a rapidly growing and rapidly rotating 60 JM (Jupiter mass) brown dwarf then it was at that time almost entirely metallic hydrogen/helium surrounded by a thin (1300km) ocean of 1 EM (Earth mass) of liquid hydrogen/helium. (Saturn has about 8 EM of liquid hydrogen/helium and 87 EM of something else) The pressure at the bottom of this liquid hydrogen/helium ocean would have been 1300km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar = 1.5 million bar Based on the abundace of the elements, 1.5% (0.9 JM) of the 60 JM protosun should have been carbon (95-13=82 EM, see below) and oxygen (190-25=165 EM) so it is possible that between the liquid hydrogen/helium ocean and the metallic hydrogen/helium there may have been a 3000km thick layer (if 8 g/cm^3) of metallic carbon and metallic oxygen It might have been less than that if, for one reason or another, part of it (the oxygen) sank If hydrogen only comes in two flavors, nondegenerate liquid hydrogen and degenerate metallic hydrogen, then it's very hard to see how a planet could keep the same radius as its mass increases from 1 to 60 JM. It is necessary therefore to suppose that metallic hydrogen comes in two forms, one much denser than the other. A partially degenerate metallic hydrogen and a fully degenerate metallic hydrogen. The layers would have looked like this: Nondegenerate liquid hydrogen and helium (0.0794 g/cm^3) Nondegenerate metallic carbon and oxygen Partially degenerate metallic hydrogen and helium (8 g/cm^3) Partially degenerate metallic carbon and oxygen Fully degenerate hydrogen (>80 g/cm^3) Fully degenerate carbon and oxygen When the pressure in the core of the 60 JM protosun became great enough and the fully degenerate metallic hydrogen core finally collapsed the protosun would have begun to spin faster due to conservation of angular momentum. If it spun fast enough then its outermost layers of liquid hydrogen and metallic oxygen and metallic carbon would have been thrown out into space where it would have coalesced into a moon which would have immediately begun receding from the rapidly rotating protosun due to tidal interactions. One orbit would be completed in only 25 minutes. 2*pi*sqrt((76000 km)^3/(G*60*317 earth masses)) = 25 min If it continued to spin faster and faster then eventually part of its metallic hydrogen (now the outermost layer) would have been thrown out into space and would have formed a second moon which would also have immediately begun receding due to tidal interactions. The metallic hydrogen must have been solid originally since it didnt end up in the 1st moon but the heat released by the core collapse evidently caused a vast flood of metallic hydrogen lava that covered the surface (cf flood basalt) Maybe, just maybe, Saturn=1st moon and Jupiter=2nd moon (I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility) This would explain why hot Jupiters are so common Jupiter's orbital momentum is far larger than the suns rotational angular momentum. The moons orbital momentum is 4 times the Earths rotational angular momentum. Jupiter would have been 1/60th of the mass of the protosun. The Moon is 1/80th of the mass of Earth. outer 4000 km of the protosuns partially degenerate metallic hydrogen = 1 JM 60*10^9 km^2 * 4000 km * 8 g/cm^3 in Earth masses = 321.5 Earth masses 4000 km might be the depth at which the metallic hydrogen transitioned to a denser phase. 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (saturn mass + Jupiter mass) / (Jupiter surface area) in bar = 600 million bar 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (5.7*10^26kg + 1.9*10^27kg) / (61 * 10^9 km^2) in bar = 600 million bar Uranus and Neptune (and planet X?) would have been created earlier by a similar process when the pressure in the core of the 8 JM protosun reached 600 million bar and the partially degenerate metallic hydrogen core collaped creating fully degenerate metallic hydrogen. Still no explanation for the odd rotation of Uranus but a collision is far more likely near the sun than further out. The pressure in the center of Jupiter is 150 million bar if its metallic hydrogen has a density of 8 g/cm^3 0.5*76000km * (8g/cm^3) * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) * 0.5 in bar 0.5*76000km = radius of core By the time the protosun grew to 8 JM the core would be twice as big and the pressure in the center would be 4 times higher, 600 million bar And its liquid hydrogen ocean would be 0.1*76550km deep (6.77 EM!) 0.1 * 76550km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 8 * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar = 1.2 million bar = pressure at bottom of liquid hydrogen ocean 1.5% of the 8 JM protosun would be of metallic carbon (13 EM) and oxygen (25 EM) A 6.77 EM planet of liquid hydrogen would be 50,000km in radius. Its escape velocity would be10.4 km/sec. (cf Kepler 51-d) As Jupiter receded, the Protosun's rotation would have temporarily slowed and gas and dust from the circumstance disc would once again have begun to accumulate on it. If the rotation increased again then a planet of rock and iron could have formed. 1 EM would form a layer 20km deep. At 150 g thats equivalent to 3000km at 1 g. Earth contains 0.25 EM of iron. 250 EM of gas would have to fall on to the protosun to bring that much iron. Since the rock wasnt metallic that gas must somehow have been ejected from the rapidly rotating protosun. Had Saturn and Jupiter continued to grow into Stars then one of them would have been ejected from the system (a 3-body system is unstable) and we would now be in a binary star system. The planet that was not ejected would have grown until it also had 2 large moons; of which, at least one would have been ejected too. In this way, each star system spawns 2 more star systems until the molecular cloud is destroyed by a supernova. I always assumed that the circumstellar disk was destroyed when the sun began fusing hydrogen. But I guess it just dissipated naturally once the molecular cloud that was feeding it was destroyed by a supernova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf http://www.science20.com/robert_inventor/so_you_thought_you_knew_what_spinning_planets_look_like_surprising_shapes_of_rapidly_spinning_planets-155538 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 http://www.science20.com/robert_inventor/so_you_thought_you_knew_what_spinning_planets_look_like_surprising_shapes_of_rapidly_spinning_planets-155538 Your link was not working - try this one. An artefact of cutting and pasting was screwing with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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