Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) . I wondered if it were possible to conduct observations , and conduct experiments , on space-time, at or just above ground level . * And could the results be valid enough , considering the nearness of surrounding materials generally , including, the Earth itself. Mike * .. Edited September 8, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 You asking about benchtop gravitational experiments? I know that people do think about such things - but I can not recall who right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 . I wondered if it were possible to conduct observations , and conduct experiments , on space-time, at or just above ground level . And could the results be valid enough , considering the nearness of surrounding materials generally , including, the Earth itself. Mike SwansonT has written in his blogs about his atomic clocks begin so accurate that they easily discern the difference between gravitational potential at Denver lab and Washington DC lab (hopefully that is right) - and that the most accurate clocks would run at noticeably different tick rates even between being placed on the floor and the desktop. That is time dilation due to difference in gravitational potential and is basic GR and effects of spacetime / it also relies on QM with regards to the actual mechanism of the hyperfine whatever-it-is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I'm not sure if you are asking Can you introduce quantum effects into relativity equations? or Can you introduce relativity into quantum mechanics equations? For the former note that relativitistic effects are often observed and have to be accounted for in particle accelerator experiments, which are conducted at or sometimes below ground level. For the latter Paul Dirac was the first to introduce a relativistic version of the Schroedinger equation, which offers more accurate calcuated values when compared with observation. Again this applies equally at ground zero as in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) You asking about benchtop gravitational experiments? I know that people do think about such things - but I can not recall who right now!.Well yes bench top , idea , but anywhere in the region of " land surface height to just above head height . " along the lines of " Bench-top" experiments , conducted in the fashion of some of the early experimenters . 1700 to 1930's as well as experimenters to the present day , who still potter around with bench top experiments ! Mike Edited September 8, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 SwansonT has written in his blogs about his atomic clocks begin so accurate that they easily discern the difference between gravitational potential at Denver lab and Washington DC lab (hopefully that is right) - and that the most accurate clocks would run at noticeably different tick rates even between being placed on the floor and the desktop. That is time dilation due to difference in gravitational potential and is basic GR and effects of spacetime / it also relies on QM with regards to the actual mechanism of the hyperfine whatever-it-is Some frequency standards are sensitive enough that folks at NIST were able to discern the difference from a height difference of ~30 cm (around 3 x 10^-17 fractional frequency difference), in several hours of measurement. DC to Denver (or close by, actually) is a difference of more than a km in height, which is a part in 10^13. That's pretty easy to measure with the best clocks. . I wondered if it were possible to conduct observations , and conduct experiments , on space-time, at or just above ground level . What is an experiment ON spacetime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Cherenkov Radiation You should like looking at the pics for this one Mike. 1888 for Heaviside's original prediction https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=cherenkov+radiation&gbv=2&oq=cerenko&gs_l=heirloom-hp.1.0.0i10j0j0i10j0j0i10l6.125.2937.0.5890.7.7.0.0.0.0.312.1219.0j5j1j1.7.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..0.7.1219.sJ2EcwHrbCw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 Some frequency standards are sensitive enough that folks at NIST were able to discern the difference from a height difference of ~30 cm (around 3 x 10^-17 fractional frequency difference), in several hours of measurement.DC to Denver (or close by, actually) is a difference of more than a km in height, which is a part in 10^13. That's pretty easy to measure with the best clocks. What is an experiment ON spacetime? . Well! I am assuming ' space- time , is there , in front of me , as much as it is 1000's of miles up? As such , whatever is affecting 1000miles up , I can get my hands on , 2 meters in front of me? So , the space time is ( according to theory ) subject to ' CURVATURE ' . So the curvature , likely to be caused my the mass presence of the earth , is curving , space time before my eyes . If I put water 2 meters in front of my face , say by a tub of water , a fish pond of water , WILL BE SUBJECT TO CURVATURE , which I assume is measurable ? I predict the water on the fish pond , will be curved , according to existing formulae ? Testable ? How ? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 . Well! I am assuming ' space- time , is there , in front of me , as much as it is 1000's of miles up? As such , whatever is affecting 1000miles up , I can get my hands on , 2 meters in front of me? So , the space time is ( according to theory ) subject to ' CURVATURE ' . So the curvature , likely to be caused my the mass presence of the earth , is curving , space time before my eyes . If I put water 2 meters in front of my face , say by a tub of water , a fish pond of water , WILL BE SUBJECT TO CURVATURE , which I assume is measurable ? I predict the water on the fish pond , will be curved , according to existing formulae ? Testable ? How ? Mike You can test things that are affected by the curvature of spacetime, e.g. the aforementioned clock comparisons, but that's a test on the clocks, confirming a model. I don't see this as an experiment on spacetime. To me that phrasing is awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) You can test things that are affected by the curvature of spacetime, e.g. the aforementioned clock comparisons, but that's a test on the clocks, confirming a model. I don't see this as an experiment on spacetime. To me that phrasing is awkward.Well , if the presence of all the mass of the earth is supposed to warp space time , around it vicinity , then the water in the pool , should curve in sympathy , or in response to the nearby curvature . And thus should be curved. ( covering the space bit of space -time . I will have to think of an observation or experiment to do with ' time ' which I understand is your province ? If one was to do a sillier extension of this curvature experiment or observation , one would surely find the water , ( eg the oceans ) curved completely around the globe. which is roughly what we observe . Or have I ' missed a trick ? Mike Ps assuming I can in fact measure or identify the correct curvature across my ' fish pool ' ? And assume it follows around the globe ? Edited September 8, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Well , if the presence of all the mass of the earth is supposed to warp space time , around it vicinity , then the water in the pool , should curve in sympathy , or in response to the nearby curvature . And thus should be curved. ( covering the space bit of space -time . I will have to think of an observation or experiment to do with ' time ' which I understand is your province ? If one was to do a sillier extension of this curvature experiment or observation , one would surely find the water , ( eg the oceans ) curved completely around the globe. which is roughly what we observe . Or have I ' missed a trick ? Mike Ps assuming I can in fact measure or identify the correct curvature across my ' fish pool ' ? And assume it follows around the globe ? The curvature of spacetime is not the same as the curvature of the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) The curvature of spacetime is not the same as the curvature of the earth.. Why not ? Surely the settlement of the surface curvature and the settlement of the sea curvature , and the curving of space - time , settle down and shape the same curve , do they not ? If not , why not ? It is after all Gravity that is curving space-time , and gravity that pulls the earth into shape ? Or did I miss something ? MIKE Edited September 8, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Why not ? Because it isn't. It is after all Gravity that is curving space-time , and gravity that pulls the earth into shape ? Or did I miss something ? They are both curvature. That doesn't mean they are the same curvature. The curvature of space can be used to describe an orbit. Water in the oceans is not in orbit around the earth. In many instances the spacetime curvature is taken to mean the path of light around a massive object. We are not a black hole (or on the cusp of becoming one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) Because it isn't. They are both curvature. That doesn't mean they are the same curvature. The curvature of space can be used to describe an orbit. Water in the oceans is not in orbit around the earth. In many instances the spacetime curvature is taken to mean the path of light around a massive object. We are not a black hole (or on the cusp of becoming one) . Oh ! I need to get my head around what you have said . If the mass of the earth is causing the curvature of space, why quite it does not curve the material stuff it's interacting with into an earth shape . If it isn't , what is pulling it into a curved shape . I thought it was gravity, that did it ( and I thought gravity was the curvature of space ? Where have I gone wrong ? As far as I can see from what you say . If I can imagine a curve , running around the earth , caused by the mass of the whole earth , say 12" ( inches ) up off the earths , it would In fact only be that particular curve where it is in circular orbit . So whatever is in orbit ( if it has any mass ) it must be travelling at 17,700 mph . If it does not have mass , then I have no idea what quite is going on ? Are you saying it's like the rings of Saturn ? Also you spoke about ' light ' orbiting , a massive object . Presumably you mean a neutron star or black hole ? Again I do not quite know , what is going on ? What a chump , what am I thinking , the curvature is the " rubber sheet model. ". So the shaper of earths round curve ,presumably, is the sharpness of the edge within this gravitational cone? Mike Edited September 8, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 . I wondered if it were possible to conduct observations , and conduct experiments , on space-time, at or just above ground level . * Pound-Rebka? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound–Rebka_experiment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) Pound-Rebka? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PoundRebka_experiment I will need to read and sleep on that ref . Strange ! ThanksMike Edited September 8, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Gravity does cause water to conform to the earth. But it's not the same curvature as spacetime being curved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) . .......What is an experiment ON spacetime?. I am not sure ....yet .... But , if whatever ' SPACE-TIME '. is , and it IS just in front of you , as much as it is , . ' away out in space ...' .. One should be able to ' prod , poke, observe, and do whatever to ' IT ' right there ...just in front of you . It sounds like you have already done this ! I have noticed , just by accident , that there is some very precise ' goings on ' happening with these ' OSCILLATING CHINA PLATES' . In a stack of solid plates , heavy China plates on a granite work top , the top plate if accidentally ' off set ' , will OSCILLATE FOR QUITE SOME CONSIDERABLE TIME ' . This China Plate phenomenon appears to approach , the sort of observation / bench experiment that I refer to above ? But conducted under experimental conditions ! Say ! But I am not sure how Quantum Behaviour relates to this phenomenon. If it does at all ? I have not investigated ' Studios ' references yet , but there does appear to be the makings of some quantum effects there ? Mike Edited September 9, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 . I am not sure ....yet .... But , if whatever ' SPACE-TIME '. is , and it IS just in front of you , as much as it is , . ' away out in space ...' .. One should be able to ' prod , poke, observe, and do whatever to ' IT ' right there ...just in front of you . That's what I'm asking you. What are some such experiments that you are doing ON spacetime. YOU have to answer this. It's your conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) That's what I'm asking you. What are some such experiments that you are doing ON spacetime. YOU have to answer this. It's your conjecture.. Yes . Delighted to do ( as best as I am able to ) , the Observations , Bench top experiments , propose any suggestions , as well as any results gained ,or which ' may ' appear. The first observation , revolves around the fact that :- China saucers( offset ), oscillate with an extraordinary regularity and persistence , than one might expect. The sort of comparative measurements could be at different positions of the moon and tides. I think the results may have some interesting results. So I would make a hypothesis for those results. Mike Edited September 9, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 . Yes . Delighted to do ( as best as I am able to ) , the Observations , Bench top experiments , propose any suggestions , as well as any results gained ,or which ' may ' appear. The first observation , revolves around the fact that :- China saucers( offset ), oscillate with an extraordinary regularity and persistence , than one might expect. The sort of comparative measurements could be at different positions of the moon and tides. I think the results may have some interesting results. So I would make a hypothesis for those results. Mike How is that an experiment on spacetime. Sounds like that an experiment on some plates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 How is that an experiment on spacetime. Sounds like that an experiment on some plates. No , not just plates. Because the restorative force of gravity is permeated across space time , in order to cause the plate to oscillate. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 No , not just plates. Because the restorative force of gravity is permeated across space time , in order to cause the plate to oscillate. Mike But the experiment is being performed on the plates. That's the physical thing you are observing and measuring. The effect of gravity is inferred from those measurements, by the application of some model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) But the experiment is being performed on the plates. That's the physical thing you are observing and measuring. The effect of gravity is inferred from those measurements, by the application of some model..Quite.! It is a privelidge to see the effects of gravity , performing , in front of our eyes. It's like seeing an electric motor going around without any input energy. True the effect wears off after a time , but enough to ' almost see the gravity field ' in operation . You could say we see this in every swing of a pendulum , kiddies swing, or whatever. But because of the oscillations , being so near in frequency to otherwise automated machines, it is amazing to peer and listen to this " bench top experiment " and think and contemplate of the ( SPACE-TIME GRAVITY INTERPLAY ) And this is just the beginning . Mike Edited September 9, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Glad you agree that these are not experiments being performed on spacetime. Post when you think of such a test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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