fredreload Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) Precisely; consciousness is a collective expression of brain function, arising from separate and distinct neuronal groups, through a concert of electrochemical exchanges, Looks like you solved the last piece of this puzzle, hmm, but why is electromagnetic field important? Can you elaborate on electrochemical exchanges? The ions as a current does not explain enough about how it gives rise to consciousness This is taken from Wikipedia: "McFadden has proposed that the brain's electromagnetic field creates a representation of the information in the neurons." How does electromagnetic field do that? Edited July 1, 2016 by fredreload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Looks like you solved the last piece of this puzzle, hmm, but why is electromagnetic field important? Other than its role in the chemistry of nerve cells, there is no reason to think it is. Can you elaborate on electrochemical exchanges? The ions as a current does not explain enough about how it gives rise to consciousness I don't think it makes much difference whether you describe the function of neutrons in terms of electrical signals or ion exchange or just chemical reactions. What is important is the function of the neutrons: what outs they generate in response to inputs and, more importantly, how they are connected to one another. This is taken from Wikipedia: "McFadden has proposed that the brain's electromagnetic field creates a representation of the information in the neurons." How does electromagnetic field do that? There is no reason to think it does. It is hard to imagine a mechanism for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) Well then strange, explain this to me, if I swap the ions in the brain with water molecules, are we still conscious? I am not being sarcastic here, but clearly there is an electrical property at work in the brain. I have to agree that computer also gives a functional perspective, as well as the current generates a magnetic field, but computer is not conscious. You are arguing that the functional perspective of the circuit gives rise to consciousness, well the circuit only generates current and voltage. And neither of that gives rise to consciousness, you'll have to elaborate on the functional perspective to convince me. Or give an example of how analogue circuit could give rise to consciousness Edited July 1, 2016 by fredreload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Well then strange, explain this to me, if I swap the ions in the brain with water molecules, are we still conscious? No, because the neurons will no longer function. If you swap the gas for water in a car engine, then the engine will no longer work. That doesn't mean that the spark plugs, valves, pistons, etc are not what makes the engine work. I have to agree that computer also gives a functional perspective, as well as the current generates a magnetic field, but computer is not conscious. Not yet. There doesn't seem to be any reason, in principle, that it couldn't be. You are arguing that the functional perspective of the circuit gives rise to consciousness, well the circuit only generates current and voltage. A logic gate only generates (well, controls) current and voltage. And yet put enough them together and it can play music, draw pictures, write poetry, simulate the operation of a brain, ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) A logic gate only generates (well, controls) current and voltage. And yet put enough them together and it can play music, draw pictures, write poetry, simulate the operation of a brain, ... "... and, thus, Man did make Computer in His own image". Book of Cybergenesis ch.1 7.5 Edited July 1, 2016 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) Looks like you solved the last piece of this puzzle, hmm, but why is electromagnetic field important? Can you elaborate on electrochemical exchanges? The ions as a current does not explain enough about how it gives rise to consciousness This is taken from Wikipedia: "McFadden has proposed that the brain's electromagnetic field creates a representation of the information in the neurons." How does electromagnetic field do that? If you are sincerely interested in how brain function produces consciousness, you will have to abandon your thoughts regarding magnetic fields and focus on the functional anatomy of our brain's central nervous system (CNS) and its likely path of evolution. Beginning with the afferent sensory circuitry of the myelencephalon (spinal brain) and rising contiguously to the thalamus our CNS reveals, in my view, its likely evolutional path to consciousness. That path explains our brain's neuronal acquisitions and how their collective functions contributes to consciousness. For example, there is a reason why all afferent sensory pathways (excluding olfactory) lead to the thalamus and why the cortex shares thalamic configuration (right/left hemisphere with hemispheric adhesion), Thalamic function adds a critical component to functions that produce behaviors independent of instinct. Edited July 1, 2016 by DrmDoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 I believe that consciencness is like a realm of its own similar to a multiverse with many sentient beings thinking acting and speaking. I define consciencness as just that every word action and thought of every sentient being and the result of all those things but that is just my view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 2, 2016 Author Share Posted July 2, 2016 There's an EM field produced by opposite charges. Care to elaborate on that? I sent you a mail too D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 (edited) Care to elaborate on that? I sent you a mail too D: Google is your friend: Electric charge is the physical property of matter that causes it to experience a force when placed in an electromagnetic field. There are two types of electric charges: positive and negative. Like charges repel and unlike attract. ... Electrically charged matter is influenced by, and produces, electromagnetic fields.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge Edited July 2, 2016 by StringJunky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrmDoc Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 I believe that consciencness is like a realm of its own similar to a multiverse with many sentient beings thinking acting and speaking. I define consciencness as just that every word action and thought of every sentient being and the result of all those things but that is just my view According to Jungian psychology, there is something called a collective unconscious, which isn't an idea to which I subscribe. There also something called the Supreme Consciousness, which is where some religious faithful believe consciousness flow to and from. If we are to believe these ideals or similar ideas and structure our thoughts based on their implications, shouldn't we require some tangible, verifiable evidence of their validity? For my own views, an idea without some verifiable basis is like a splinter in my eye that painfully obscures my view of reality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) Although I'm really stuck on the idea about voltage though, can voltage give rise to life? This animation really helps me understand nerve impulse a lot and here is an explanation on voltage gated ion channel. P.S The reason I believe consciousness is not function is because consciousness cannot change state. If you assume a logic gate for consciousness, both current and voltage will have to change. If you assume your consciousness to be in state 1, once it pass through the logic gate it would be in state 2 and your voltage and current changes and you no longer have consciousness. That leaves analogue circuit as the available option. Here is analogue circuit. "The signals take any value from a given range, and each unique signal value represents different information. Any change in the signal is meaningful, and each level of the signal represents a different level of the phenomenon that it represents. For example, suppose the signal is being used to represent temperature, with one volt representing one degree Celsius. In such a system 10 volts would represent 10 degrees, and 10.1 volts would represent 10.1 degrees." Now this is where it gets tricky, some people suggest that the structure of the brain causes the analogue circuits to create life in a form of voltage. I can't really argue against that simply because voltage is a hard term to describe. And you will need an available analogue device to convince me of that. Aside from this available option we also have the electromagnetic field induced water molecule for the quantum theory here. "The concepts underlying this theory derive from the physicists, Hiroomi Umezawa[14] and Herbert Fröhlich[15] in the 1960s. More recently, their ideas have been elaborated by Mari Jibu and Kunio Yasue. Water comprises 70% of the brain, and quantum brain dynamics (QBD) proposes that the electric dipoles of the water molecules constitute a quantum field, referred to as the cortical field, with corticons as the quanta of the field. This cortical field is postulated to interact with quantum coherent waves generated by the biomolecules in neurons, which are suggested to propagate along the neuronal network." So it's up to you guys to tell me which one is more likely to be the one Edited July 3, 2016 by fredreload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Consciousness is awareness of awareness. Being aware means knowing what you are doing. Computers know how to do things but don't yet know what they are doing. Logic programming will eventually change that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 Something like a conch shell resonance effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 The reason I believe consciousness is not function is because consciousness cannot change state. You keep saying this. It is patently false. Can you explain what you mean by this statement. Perhaps you mean something different by "consciousness" than I would expect. In what way do you consider consciousness to be "uniform" and not change state? If you assume a logic gate for consciousness, both current and voltage will have to change. If you assume your consciousness to be in state 1, once it pass through the logic gate it would be in state 2 and your voltage and current changes and you no longer have consciousness. Consciousness doesn't pass through a logic gate, any more than music or 3D graphics does. It is a consequence of the operation of billions of "logic gates" (in the same way that the function of a computer program is the result of the operation of millions of transistors). I can't really argue against that simply because voltage is a hard term to describe. It is not a hard term to describe. It is precisely specified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 You keep saying this. It is patently false. Can you explain what you mean by this statement. Perhaps you mean something different by "consciousness" than I would expect. In what way do you consider consciousness to be "uniform" and not change state? Consciousness doesn't pass through a logic gate, any more than music or 3D graphics does. It is a consequence of the operation of billions of "logic gates" (in the same way that the function of a computer program is the result of the operation of millions of transistors). It is not a hard term to describe. It is precisely specified. You might be able to program consciousness, but logic gates are not conscious. I don't see how consciousness could be functional. Like after a billion logic gates the computer suddenly become conscious. I still respect your views Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 I don't see how consciousness could be functional. The only alternative seems to be some sort of supernatural explanation where consciousness exists external to the brain. There is no evidence to support such an idea. The reason I believe consciousness is not function is because consciousness cannot change state. You keep saying this. Can you explain what you mean by this statement. In what way do you consider consciousness to be "uniform" and not change state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) The computer will become aware when the computer knows WHAT it is doing instead of just HOW to do things. Logic programming is the key Edited July 3, 2016 by granpa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) Consciousness is awareness of awareness. Being aware means knowing what you are doing. Computers know how to do things but don't yet know what they are doing. Logic programming will eventually change that Self-consciousness is a subset of the broader term 'consciousness', so, one can be aware of ones surroundings but not oneself. Edited July 3, 2016 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) Alright Strange, the consciousness cannot be digital circuit because digital circuit only has two states, 0 or 1. If you do believe consciousness to be digital circuit then you will have to agree that the state will change, For instance I got a current(1) and no current(0) passing through an AND gate and you get no current(0) out, then a clock cycle later I got current(1) current(1) and get a current(1) out. You have to agree that for a digital circuit, after running for every clock cycle you perform an operation with the CPU either reading in bits or writing bits. If you want to check how cpu works here is a good video showing that. Now you could argue, what if the computer never change state, well if it never change state it does nothing, you get a loop circuit and a voltage out for light like a simple analogue circuit here. Now why can't consciousness exist in binary states when you got all that ions (nerve signals) flowing in the brain. Well, let's say I have consciousness only, no thoughts, no sound, no hearing, no any senses. My consciousness remain the same at all time, let's say falling asleep without dreaming, you get a black screen, only your consciousness. Do you feel that this consciousness jumps from 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 and changes state from current(1) current(1) to no current(0) current(1)? No it doesn't, it stays constant in my mind without changing states even though all those ions are flowing around assuming data is being changed. Could it be running something that doesn't change state? It could be, that would be an analogue circuit. So it's either some constant supply of voltage or electromagnetic field. I'm taking a wild guess here because I read the electromagnetic field and voltage theory before, prove me wrong if I am So right, the state or data can't change, get your Chinese tech together Edited July 3, 2016 by fredreload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Alright Strange, the consciousness cannot be digital circuit because digital circuit only has two states, 0 or 1. Nonsense. Is your computer either on or off? No, it can do all sorts of incredibly complicated things. If you want to check how cpu works is a good video showing that. Having spent most of my career designing and using microprocessors, I don't think that will be necessary, thanks. Well, let's say I have consciousness only, no thoughts, no sound, no hearing, no any senses. If you have no thoughts, then I can't really imagine what you mean by "consciousness". If you do have thoughts, then the state is changing all the time. Could it be running something that doesn't change state? It could be, that would be an analogue circuit. Nonsense. Any analogue circuit (apart from a constant voltage or current supply) changes state all the time. The voltage in your headphones change, the states in an analogue computer change constantly, and so on. And as a digital computer can simulate an analog circuit (including an analog computer) the distinction is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) Nonsense. Is your computer either on or off? No, it can do all sorts of incredibly complicated things. Having spent most of my career designing and using microprocessors, I don't think that will be necessary, thanks. If you have no thoughts, then I can't really imagine what you mean by "consciousness". If you do have thoughts, then the state is changing all the time. Nonsense. Any analogue circuit (apart from a constant voltage or current supply) changes state all the time. The voltage in your headphones change, the states in an analogue computer change constantly, and so on. And as a digital computer can simulate an analog circuit (including an analog computer) the distinction is pointless. Yes, a computer can do complicated things including generating consciousness using a software, hardware by itself, no matter how many transistors you throw at it, cannot make a computer conscious. You can have consciousness by just not thinking about anything. Yes the state changes, but that doesn't mean it's binary, it's analogue Yes, analogue circuit have infinite states, mistake on my part Yes you can probably simulate consciousness using a software or simulate analogue circuits, but how do you simulate current and voltage, as electrons running through transistors to generate voltage? These are mechanisms that is still not yet proven in physics. So we're going about how to simulate consciousness here in a software sense. If you can simulate voltage or electromagnetic field, sure let me know, I'll take your ideas Edited July 3, 2016 by fredreload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Yes you can probably simulate consciousness using a software or simulate analogue circuits, but how do you simulate current and voltage, as electrons running through transistors to generate voltage? These are mechanisms that is still not yet proven in physics. What!? We simulate these things all the time. If we couldn't then you wouldn't have the computer that you do. (p.s. Nothing is ever proven in physics.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) I'm saying you simulate a current on the screen and you can light up a physical light bulb P.S. Right well, if you do simulate real consciousness in a computer let me know, I'll be counting on you P.S. I think it's possible, can you light up a light bulb with the current simulated in a computer? Edited July 4, 2016 by fredreload -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredreload Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 What!? We simulate these things all the time. If we couldn't then you wouldn't have the computer that you do. (p.s. Nothing is ever proven in physics.) My bad dude, no hard feelings, I'm attempting to verify that consciousness is an analogue circuit, but whether it is voltage or water dipole I am still unsure of. If you are looking into this feel free to let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 My bad dude, no hard feelings, I'm attempting to verify that consciousness is an analogue circuit, but whether it is voltage or water dipole I am still unsure of. How can something as complex as consciousness be "a voltage" - is a battery conscious? Or a "water dipole" - is a glass of water conscious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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