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Gobekli Tepe - why was it built and then buried?


Robittybob1
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Gobekli Tepe - why was it built and then buried?

 

12,000 years ago when humans were still hunter gatherers. Did they have tools that could make this?

 

"Did they have tools that could make this?" - Demonstrably they did. This is SF.N let's no go down the aliens did it route.

 

I think it was abandoned rather than actively buried - btw. Also it is worth bearing in mind that just a few years back - in both our lifetimes - the suggestion of the existence of such a site would have been mocked by archaeologists; so when they confidently expound on the peoples who created it take it with a pinch of salt. There is much in archaeology which is cutting edge empirical science with some delightful and inspired techniques but there is also much which is pure bullshit.

 

Without the "hard-science" techniques of radiocarbon dating and modern stratigraphy the archaeological community would not have countenanced a stone built sanctuary created by hunter-gatherers 9-10000 years BCE - it would have been and was declared impossible. We can now provide very good empirical evidence that this impossible part of prehistory actually happened - the society which created it might well remain a complete mystery; that will not stop people discoursing on the details of that society

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"Did they have tools that could make this?" - Demonstrably they did. This is SF.N let's no go down the aliens did it route.

 

I think it was abandoned rather than actively buried - btw. Also it is worth bearing in mind that just a few years back - in both our lifetimes - the suggestion of the existence of such a site would have been mocked by archaeologists; so when they confidently expound on the peoples who created it take it with a pinch of salt. There is much in archaeology which is cutting edge empirical science with some delightful and inspired techniques but there is also much which is pure bullshit.

 

Without the "hard-science" techniques of radiocarbon dating and modern stratigraphy the archaeological community would not have countenanced a stone built sanctuary created by hunter-gatherers 9-10000 years BCE - it would have been and was declared impossible. We can now provide very good empirical evidence that this impossible part of prehistory actually happened - the society which created it might well remain a complete mystery; that will not stop people discoursing on the details of that society

No aliens OK, we've just got to find the tools they used. In this case it was flint used on limestone. Not that hard to do. (In a later period they must have been using a very hard alloy of bronze, this was based on the fine particles of the tool left in the crevices of the stones, but there has not been the example of the tool with that composition discovered yet. Saws for cutting stones are mentioned in the OT, has an actual saw been found yet?)

 

As far as whether it was buried. To me the shape of the mound prior to the excavation seemed to suggest "burial" but that hasn't been discussed. The material between the walls looks too heavy just to have just blown there. If it was covered in a landslide I'd expect all the obelisques to be knocked over. The hollows could have filled with runoff but would they end up mounded?

 

It surprises me how many of these "temples" were found at that site.

wikipedia reads like it was covered through human activity.

 

Göbekli Tepe (pronounced [ɟøbekˈli teˈpe],[2] "Potbelly Hill"[3]) is an archaeological site at the top of a mountain ridge in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of modern-day Turkey, approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa. The Göbekli Tepe (pronounced [ɟøbekˈli teˈpe],[2] "Potbelly Hill"[3]) is an archaeological site at the top of a mountain ridge in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of modern-day Turkey, approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa. The tell has a height of 15 m (49 ft) and is about 300 m (984 ft) in diameter.[4] It is approximately 760 m (2,493 ft) above sea level. has a height of 15 m (49 ft) and is about 300 m (984 ft) in diameter.[4] It is approximately 760 m (2,493 ft) above sea level.

A "tell"

 

A tell, or tel (from Arabic: تَل‎‎, tall,[1] Hebrew: תֵּל,[2]) is a type of archaeological mound created by human occupation and abandonment of a geographical site over many centuries.

But there is no suggestion that Gobekli Tepe was ever a site of habitation, so I'm still wondering why it was covered?

I'm left thinking the purpose was to build it and cover it. Still don't know why though!

Was it a bit like the Terracotta Warriors? Where they go through this huge exercise just to bury it? https://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/

Edited by Robittybob1
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Robittybob1,

 

I thought the site looked like the walled areas could have be constructed as a pen to corral edible wild animals herded in, funneled in by teams of "hunters" the prey was running from.

 

Then others stood on the top of the Ts and threw large stones down, knocking out the animals, preserving the tasty and nutritious blood without fouling the meat with bile, while safe from the hoof and claw and tooth.

 

As to filling in the sites, perhaps one would smell so of death that the next herd would not enter, and they would have to build another, or build another in a better spot for herding in the next group. Or perhaps rivals would fill in the site to keep the others from decimating the herds, as the method was so effective.

 

Just a thought.

 

Regards, TAR

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Robittybob1,

 

I thought the site looked like the walled areas could have be constructed as a pen to corral edible wild animals herded in, funneled in by teams of "hunters" the prey was running from.

 

Then others stood on the top of the Ts and threw large stones down, knocking out the animals, preserving the tasty and nutritious blood without fouling the meat with bile, while safe from the hoof and claw and tooth.

 

As to filling in the sites, perhaps one would smell so of death that the next herd would not enter, and they would have to build another, or build another in a better spot for herding in the next group. Or perhaps rivals would fill in the site to keep the others from decimating the herds, as the method was so effective.

 

Just a thought.

 

Regards, TAR

Having dealt with animals all my life I'll just say that is IMO not a workable hypothesis.

http://skepdic.com/gobeklitepe.html

 

....one thing that makes the carved stones at Göbekli Tepe interesting is that the standing stones seem to have been deliberately buried around 8200 BCE.....

Used for 1000 years and then buried by carrying earth and rocks to cover the whole site. Weird

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robittybob1,

 

OK the 1000 years later part falsifies the smell of death idea, but leaves open that one tribe or group had reason to cover up the civilization of another, for spite, or because society had changed and sought to bury the ways of the past.

 

Regards, TAR

,


Maybe somehow Neanderthals were involved and there was a desire for the Neanderthal structures to be buried, by haters of the Neanderthals.

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robittybob1,

 

OK the 1000 years later part falsifies the smell of death idea, but leaves open that one tribe or group had reason to cover up the civilization of another, for spite, or because society had changed and sought to bury the ways of the past.

 

Regards, TAR

,

Maybe somehow Neanderthals were involved and there was a desire for the Neanderthal structures to be buried, by haters of the Neanderthals.

I think in terms of human behaviour if they hated this culture they would have smashed the stones and toppled them rather than leaving them standing. Somehow the burying of them has preserved them, for really the soft limestone would be totally weathered if they were exposed to the elements.

I've just finished listening to the documentary

and it covers some interesting aspects of climate change, evolution and development of astronomy and religious motives.

Too much to take-in in one sitting.

Gunung Padang Megalithic Site seems to be older than Gobekli Tepe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunung_Padang_Megalithic_Site

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It isn't a five minute job for a band of hunter gatherers to cover an area as large as this. 300 times 300 meters to a depth of 15 meters. I'm not sure of the exact figures, but they didn't have transport and no domesticated beasts of burden. No tools other than sticks, and woven baskets. Baskets and skin loin cloths seem to be the only technology depicted in the reliefs.

Still someone organised enough labour to complete that task.

 

All done at the top of the mountain.

Edited by Robittybob1
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Robittybob1,

 

Long pieces of that, some interviews, were in Turkish or some other language I don't know. However it does seem that there is some symbolism built into the arrangement of the stones, and into the carvings on them. Maybe enough that that my thought about them being a hunting or slaughter area, is not so obvious to me as it has been. Two things are making me change my mind a little, maybe three. One, I thought the pock marks on the top of the stones were places where a thrower could lodge ammunition before the animals were funneled in, but after seeing the quarry site, and noticing the pock marks on the limestone still in the ground, I am thinking that may just be the way limestone ages, with small depressions gathering a puddle which dissolves a little more limestone...

 

The second thing was that the floors were waterproof, and I did not know that. I envisioned a dirt floor, like in an arena where the killing could take place. A smooth waterproof floor seems more suited for habitation or ritual.

 

The third thing was the lack of claw and hoofmarks and broken relief near the bases of the Ts which probably would have occurred had centuries of panicking animals been repeatedly present.

 

Still, I am not completely releasing the hypothesis, because these things seemed preagriculture, and as such, with hunters and gatherers it seems odd to get enough people together to carve and move the stones, unless there was a payoff. If it allowed a communal hunt and slaughter, it could give large collections of people the reason to come, work together and leave with bone and fur and full bellies and perhaps salted meat and such. (or given the fact that an animal could be knocked out and not killed, perhaps enslaved animals, that could be butchered later, or used for milking or metered bleeding and such)

 

Then again, beyond cave paintings and finds such as Golbekli Tepe we don't have many news reports from 14,000 years ago, and it is hard to piece together what races and species where vying for dominance or what political stuff and class warfare type situations might have been going on.

 

The owners of the technology, the means of production would be king. As such I was thinking that the builders of the animal trap would be looked up to as providers.

 

Harder to figure where the obedience would come from if it were just a temple. The Mayan priests were king because their knowledge of the heavens allowed them to pretend to bring the life giving rains. What power of the universe did the builders of these "temples" usurp?

 

 

Regards, TAR

Edited by tar
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The city closest to Gobekli tepe is called the "City of Prophets" is there a clue there.


Imagine if a prophet foretold of a cataclysm. If he said the site has to buried so it can survive. The cataclysm comes and goes but the people who used the buried temple are all deceased hence it is forgotten for the next 11,600 years.

Edited by Robittybob1
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I will have to read up on the city. Seems though, since I was taught the importance of the area between the Tigris and the Eurphrates, as the cradle of civilization even before people talked about Gobekli Tepe, it should be really important to us, how and why the place was built. I think there is plenty of room for speculation along unfamiliar lines, because we didn't think organized civilizations went back that far. Calling the place a temple and talking about religion though, and higher spiritual beings and such I think is unrequired. They were aware of the Sun and the Moon and the animals, but that does not mean they needed a priest or a god.

 

 

Regards, TAR


or visitors from outer space

 

What ever they were and did came before whatever we did and do now, so in some sense or another, they laid the groundwork upon which our civilizations have been built. Mastery of the environment though does not require obedience to god. Just an understanding of the natural world. The animals, carving rock, turning sticks to tools and fibers and fur to clothes, building protection against the weather, and understanding the seasons and such.


there is also the possibility that the old ones were buried when the new ones were built as one could probably find the foundation of some settler's house under some street in New York or some burial site under an arena

 

In fact that is not a bad theory even with my trap hypothesis. One would be used for hundreds of years and someone would have an idea for improvement. Make the Ts higher the outside ring more symmetric or some artist really good at carving or a spiral design better at confusing and trapping the animals, or all of the above. The old one would be filled in so the herded animals would not enter an unmanned trap, and so on. Only why the last was covered would then be the mystery.


Under this theory, the last would be the best.

Edited by tar
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But looking at the site on Google Earth there looks to be a valley to the ESE.

 

The hills on either side would help to funnel a herd up to the trap.

 

Branches and such could easily be piled in a V to urge the animals toward the entrance. One way in. No way out. A trap. Once the heard is in the entrance is closed and the throwers are standing above the herd in perfect position. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

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But looking at the site on Google Earth there looks to be a valley to the ESE.

 

The hills on either side would help to funnel a herd up to the trap.

 

Branches and such could easily be piled in a V to urge the animals toward the entrance. One way in. No way out. A trap. Once the heard is in the entrance is closed and the throwers are standing above the herd in perfect position. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

What is the link to that view please?

 

If the circle equates to a corral only a handful of animals would fit in at anytime. A big bull would totally trash the place. If they were wild but fed regularly it might work.

Edited by Robittybob1
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The purpose of these sites may be of a more simple rather than complex use. Remember that just to the south of this site the people of the Nile valley later built pyramids and so too did the cultures of Mesoamerica. They may have differed in usage, but they also may not have, given both cultures made immense investment in time and labor. Two separate cultures building similar structures increases the likelihood the structure's purpose was more simple and shared a common desire that any industrious culture would fulfill, rather than each having their own widely separate and complex purposes.

 

Stonehenge is close enough structurally and aesthetically to these constructs in Turkey that the reasons for them may be similar. Stonehenge has celestial alignments, the heel stone, and the embanked avenue, are aligned to the sunset of the winter solstice and the sunrise of the summer solstice. There is much debate over other possible alignments.

 

I believe this site is distinct from Stonehenge in one respect. Was this site built to be kept secret for its lifetime and then buried to keep it safe afterwards, possibly from worries about an approaching hostile culture? Or were they buried in sequence as each one's celestial viewing "technology" became obsolete and replaced by the newer and presumed better construct next to it.

 

I remember the first time I experienced a night sky out in the wilderness with a ring of tall firs surrounding my vantage point, it was quite an astounding experience with those dark giants outlined by the brilliant night sky above and beyond them. I can imagine a ceremony or ritual down in that dark well with those pillared giants silhouetted against that brilliant canopy of stars. . . . . . . BREATHTAKING!

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..... Was this site built to be kept secret for its lifetime and then buried to keep it safe afterwards, possibly from worries about an approaching hostile culture? Or were they buried in sequence as each one's celestial viewing "technology" became obsolete and replaced by the newer and presumed better construct next to it.

 

....

If they built successively better versions I'd tend to believe they would reuse the stones rather than move new ones the entire distance from the quarry.

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Robbitybob1,

 

The site I was looking at was at 37degrees13 minutes 03.80minutes North 38degrees 51minutes 13.53seconds East. As you move the cursor around the site and watch the elevation there appears to be a hilltop to your South East and a road going off to the West and then South that if you follow it with your cursor it appears to go down in elevation with higher elevations to its North and South.

 

And I am just wondering, if the tells are lined up with the stars and planets if there was a precession of the stars and planets that caused them each in succession to be out of alignment, and require a new setup to exactly work, and the earlier one was covered but not destroyed because there was the thought that the previous alignment might come around again, given the periodic nature of the position of the stars, the Sun the Moon, and the planets. And long term thinking wise there is a slow progression of the position of a distant galaxy in relation to the local stars that are circling the center of our galaxy together. I suppose the alignment of the structures to the stars and planets have been studied. Perhaps exactly what they were looking for or lining up with is not currently apparent because the heavens are not exactly fixed and things change over a 10,000 period. (and our poles wobble)

 

Also I am wondering now if there might have been a different show from the top of each of the surrounding Ts, useful or workable at different times of the year.​So, ma​ybe its a calender or sky observation site which would be useful to tell when the seasons and food sources were to be available. So I suppose it need not be either religious or an animal trap, but it could be each or some combination. There is an aspect of art, an aspect of technology, an aspect of communal endeavor, an aspect of awareness of cohabitation with the objects in the sky...but I am still holding a little thought that there is a superiority achieved when you stand on the shoulders of giants and this superiority over prey might have been the way it was done 10,000 years ago.

 

​Regards, TAR

Edited by tar
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There is the carving of the headless man and the birds carrying an orb (which I take as the head of the headless man). To me that is the beginning of the concept of consciousness continuing after dead. Another statue was of a man with an erection, so one would think there was an element of the initiation ceremony going on as well.

 

Sun and Moon represented by the two large pillars and the twelve astrological constellations is a start. Maybe they hadn't clicked onto alignment with the stars as yet.

So it becomes a bit of a science project with them trying to understand the cosmos and life as well.

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Gobekli Tepe - why was it built and then buried?

 

12,000 years ago when humans were still hunter gatherers. Did they have tools that could make this?

1.If a civilization build something it means the civilization has the means to do it. So yes they had tools to make it.

2.There is no mystery. There is simply a lack of logical explanation

3. When you put on the balance on the left side "hunters & gatherers" and on the right side Gobekli Tepe, you know something is wrong and the mystery arises.

4. Since Gobekli Tepe is a strong evidence, replace the "hunters & gatherers" with "civilized people" and the mystery vanishes.

5. Why have we no (other) clue of this "civilization"? There are hundreds of possible explanations, between them there is war & extermination, and also maybe there are other clues that we haven't found yet, and also maybe this "civilization" has continued somewhere else and maybe ...(to be continued).

 

So maybe Gobekli Tepe is a fact that must make us review the concept of linear evolution of humanity. Maybe we were hunters here , then civilized there, then hunters there, then civilized again, then gatherers, etc. with each time maybe (maybe not) an inch of development. Like in Greek Antiquity civilization was much more developed than in the middle ages.

Why is it buried?

 

1. If it was not buried it would not have last that many years. So maybe they were in the past hundreds of Gobekli Tepe but all were destroyed except the one that was buried.

IOW it may be an incident (like a crazy monarch who ordered the temples to be buried for any peculiar reason)

2. It may be a result of a war, where the hate (and the fear) is so great that the conqueror destroys and buries everything in order to make humanity even forget the name of the civilization. Like the Romans tried to do destroying Carthage.

3. It may be a stratagem to hide the sacred place to the conqueror. In this case the temples should be intact under the soil.

4. I cannot find a fourth reason although I am sure there must be some. Like the rise of a new religion for example.

Edited by michel123456
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@michel123456 - a long post but what did you really say?

 

Gobekli Tepe is a fact that must make us review the concept of linear evolution of humanity.

I thought it was already known that civilization had a patchy start. What do you mean by "linear evolution" as it relates to Gobekli Tepe?

Edited by Robittybob1
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If they built successively better versions I'd tend to believe they would reuse the stones rather than move new ones the entire distance from the quarry.

 

I think we over apply our modern interpretation of what constitutes ancient religious practices in these circumstances. This isn't a simple alter for burnt offerings or a big rock that they gathered around. This shows intent on illustrating something of great importance and/or their best effort in understanding how it works. It also suggest the effort to unravel its possible influence on their lives and of course their hopes on influencing it to their advantage. It appears to be what I would assume the first attempts at constructing an observatory would look like. It would allow multiple people to observe the movement of the stars between the pillars, providing a means to measure time and distance.

 

This is the area of the world where astrology would soon begin to chart the heavens and it would be reasonable to imagine it began in circumstances such as these.

 

The sequence of building "versions" could be the result of the next generation of scholars making an improvement in the state of the art, convincing the ruling party that this will pay dividends in some manner. There may have been some (a lot) of P.T. Barnum salesmanship keeping this place flourishing with activity for many generations.

 

Somewhere in all this there were activities that we would ascribe religious connotations. But without alters or clear depictions of offerings like those in Egyptian and Mesoamerican examples this does not to me show any kind of heavy devotion to something akin to Baal.

 

And I would think it would be buried by those who cherish it to save its technology from falling into the wrong hands. If it had been captured I would expect some defacement and over carving by the conquering culture, some crudely done representation of their gods on and over the pillars before its burial. But then again, wouldn't they have occupied it instead? Turned it into one of theirs with their gods. And then it would have suffered the fate of all the other such sites, built on top of, layer after layer, as was the case with Troy and so many other more recent but still ancient sites.

Edited by arc
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I think we over apply our modern interpretation of what constitutes ancient religious practices in these circumstances. ...... It appears to be what I would assume the first attempts at constructing an observatory would look like. It would allow multiple people to observe the movement of the stars between the pillars, providing a means to measure time and distance.

 

This is the area of the world where astrology would soon begin to chart the heavens and it would be reasonable to imagine it began in circumstances such as these. ....

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking this was built and used in an era before written language, a time when most things/concepts would not have the words to express them orally either. So the carvings were in themselves a form of communication. Whether it was religious or just their own attempt to explain things as best they could within their limitations, no words and no writing.

 

What did they use to measure time? There would have been a day, and a year and the division of that year into the twelve periods.

How would they measure distance? Did they have a standard? What distances are you talking about?

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...

 

What did they use to measure time? There would have been a day, and a year and the division of that year into the twelve periods.

How would they measure distance? Did they have a standard? What distances are you talking about?

 

Why twelve periods? More likely 12 and a third - or no real pre-ordained subdivisions till astronomy and mathematics was sufficiently advanced. There is evidence of a lunar calendar from around 8000 BC in Scotland - but then not much use for a solar calendar when it rains all the time

 

They would measure distance same way we do - take a stick and make sure it is the same length as the previous stick you used to measure distances with

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Why twelve periods? More likely 12 and a third - or no real pre-ordained subdivisions till astronomy and mathematics was sufficiently advanced. There is evidence of a lunar calendar from around 8000 BC in Scotland - but then not much use for a solar calendar when it rains all the time

 

They would measure distance same way we do - take a stick and make sure it is the same length as the previous stick you used to measure distances with

In the documentaries they sort of link it to the 12 zodiacal constellations. Now that may be a Northern Hemisphere thing for I don't know about them at all as I have never tried to look for the constellations from a Southern Hemisphere perspective. I know they were found really early (Babylonians) but I personally have no other knowledge about it. (There were 12 smaller stones around their circles)

http://www.pixzul.com/

 

The zodiac is the ring of constellations that lie along the path of the Sun.

Edited by Robittybob1
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