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Johncr8992

How far are we to change the sexual orientation of a person using neuroscience, CRISPR, Neuromodulation, neuronal transplants and other technologies?

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Nowadays, it seems we are in an exponenntial rate of neuroscience and science development. Last year a researcher discovered a link between epigenetics and homossexuality. Plus, we are having CRISPR being used to make real and effective results in gene editing, even with UK starting to edit human embryos. Plus, neuroscience is gaining acess to multiple methods, and even optogenetics, with the advent of CRISPR, and the breaking of the hematoencephalic barrier in the brain (using ultrasound and microbubbles) make it possible to deliver gene therapies to the whole brain tissue. Next year the first trial on head transplant is going to happen, with the russian volunteer and the italian neurosurgeon. Some neurons transplanted to patients with Parkinson almost 30 years ago are still there and working. Plus, there is the near quantum computer development to help process all the data from the brain, and the growing nanotechnology. With all that happening, can we expect to change the sexual orientation on the next 10 years, or so, by the combination of all these resources?

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. With all that happening, can we expect to change the sexual orientation on the next 10 years, or so, by the combination of all these resources?

Why, on Earth, would we want to change a person whose sexual identity is perfectly normal? It will never happen because your premise that homosexuality is some kind neural misconfiguration, or even indeed immorally/societally destructive, is not supported by the evidence. Homophobia is a religious/cultural phenomenon i.e. not based on any kind of objective rationale.

Edited by StringJunky

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That would infer treatment for a disorder where it doesn't exist, doesn't it? Varied sexual orientations exist in nature as it does in us. Whether a possibility becomes a future option depends on why you may think such a thing is necessary. Do you think this sexual orientation therapy or treatment is necessary?

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I guess same way people suffer from gender identification issues, like men that are actually or feel like women, and do surgery and hormonal threatments, so there are people that, for many reasons, some of them very personal and even in an equal society with no problems, have the same desire of change. Regarding the technical aspect of that, is there a chance of science uncovering the mystery of sexual orientation, and using those tools? The last interesting paper I've read about was from Mr N'gun, and epigeneticis, although the sample was not really big to confirm his theory

Note that I know this is a touchy topic, and also the ethical issues. Is like the person having the option, due to technological advances. And because it will came from an adult person with free will, if any procedures are not risky, then I still wonder at which point are we on this type of research. Mainly knowing what are the neural mechanisms behind sexual orientation

And not every medical procedure is solely for disorders. There are people that do plastic surgery just for the sake of becoming more beautiful. I know this can be misused by many people, but I spoke for the people that want that in terms of personal reasons and free will. Consider, for example, the pool for a homossexual being very short, like only 10% of the population. If such procedure is available, then he could have more chances of finding a mate. But focusing only on the scientif aspect, at what extent are we in terms of changing the brain, like that?

Edited by Johncr8992

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I guess same way people suffer from gender identification issues, like men that are actually or feel like women, and do surgery and hormonal threatments, so there are people that, for many reasons, some of them very personal and even in an equal society with no problems, have the same desire of change. Regarding the technical aspect of that, is there a chance of science uncovering the mystery of sexual orientation, and using those tools? The last interesting paper I've read about was from Mr N'gun, and epigeneticis, although the sample was not really big to confirm his theory

Note that I know this is a touchy topic, and also the ethical issues. Is like the person having the option, due to technological advances. And because it will came from an adult person with free will, if any procedures are not risky, then I still wonder at which point are we on this type of research. Mainly knowing what are the neural mechanisms behind sexual orientation

Fair enough. :) You kind of get used to newcomers coming into this subject from a moral standpoint.. Sexual and gender identity is an emerging property of several areas of the brain, and, possibly, the endocrine system. I don't think there is a localised area specifically for single aspects of a behaviour. I'm sure a more knowledgeable member can give you the current state of the art.

 

 

 

An emergent property is a property which a collection or complex system has, but which the individual members do not have.

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That's true. But are we doing well on the brain mapping, in general? I mean, all the times I look for paper on the area, doesn't seem to have many researchers on that specific trying of identification. In a simplistic way, I try to make correlations between the visual circuitry and the hearing circuitry, giving stimulus for the brain and generating the erotic component and by that, stimulating the autonomic system. Also, knowng the memories and thoughts can activate that circuitry in the same way. But I really don't know....are we expected to uncover that soon?

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I guess same way people suffer from gender identification issues, like men that are actually or feel like women, and do surgery and hormonal threatments, so there are people that, for many reasons, some of them very personal and even in an equal society with no problems, have the same desire of change. Regarding the technical aspect of that, is there a chance of science uncovering the mystery of sexual orientation, and using those tools? The last interesting paper I've read about was from Mr N'gun, and epigeneticis, although the sample was not really big to confirm his theory

Note that I know this is a touchy topic, and also the ethical issues. Is like the person having the option, due to technological advances. And because it will came from an adult person with free will, if any procedures are not risky, then I still wonder at which point are we on this type of research. Mainly knowing what are the neural mechanisms behind sexual orientation

And not every medical procedure is solely for disorders. There are people that do plastic surgery just for the sake of becoming more beautiful. I know this can be misused by many people, but I spoke for the people that want that in terms of personal reasons and free will. Consider, for example, the pool for a homossexual being very short, like only 10% of the population. If such procedure is available, then he could have more chances of finding a mate. But focusing only on the scientif aspect, at what extent are we in terms of changing the brain, like that?

 

Your query, if I understand correctly, regards people who are dissatisfied with their sexual orientation for one reason or another. As an example, you gave homosexual's limited dating pool as impetus for procedures leading to less limited options. There are many therapies that currently exist for people who are, for many reasons, unhappy with themselves and their condition without a neuroscience option. I think our quest should be about finding ways to be happy with oneself without radical changes and for others to be more accepting and respectful of our differences and who we are. However, there continues to be ongoing research you can access relative the neural nature of sexual orientation.

Edited by DrmDoc

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I admit I don't know a lot about this concept, but what I want to know is, if there's always a key component in a system like that. I mean, something with a higher importance in the final results

DmrDoc, I agree with you. But why not uncover this mystery as well? Do you think one thing exclude another? I guess all we want as humans, is reduce the randomness and have control of our destiny the most we can. I guess this procedure would be more like an application. But I confess I don't know in a really concrete way at what point is our current neuroscience research

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So DrmDoc you "think our quest should be about finding ways to be happy with oneself without radical changes and for others to be more accepting and respectful of our differences" ?

So you don't agree with sex reassignment surgery, and the very need for transgendered people ?

 

Did you mean something else or are you being hypocritical ?

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So DrmDoc you "think our quest should be about finding ways to be happy with oneself without radical changes and for others to be more accepting and respectful of our differences" ?

So you don't agree with sex reassignment surgery, and the very need for transgendered people ?

 

Did you mean something else or are you being hypocritical ?

The OP is talking about reassigning the brain, not the body. If you notice, more carefully, DrmDoc is asserting the right of people to be the way they are without the need for drastic procedures. Society should embrace the idea that gender and sexual identity can be fluid between all states within one person. It is society's expectations, imo, that force transgendered people to try and fit the culturally instilled mould of a 'man' or a 'woman', hence, many seeking surgery.

Edited by StringJunky

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Exactly. This conversation would be moot (and mute, frankly) if society weren't so inundated and inculcated with long outdated outmoded under educated puritanical gender norms.

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Mods, please split this off if we're getting off topic.

But I don't see the distinction StringJunky.

In one case we are manipulating a person's physical make-up so that they better 'fit' into their perceived place in society.

And in the other genetically/neurologically manipulating them to better enable their perceived fit into society.

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Exactly. This conversation would be moot (and mute, frankly) if society weren't so inundated and inculcated with long outdated outmoded under educated puritanical gender norms.

If people can be bisexual, why can't they be bigendered?

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There's always the implication of allowing homosexuals to become heterosexual, but never of allowing heterosexuals to become homosexual. Why is that?

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I'm suggesting Deacon, that it should be morally acceptable to do both.

Or neither.

 

If society has finally accepted that some men may be women trapped in a man's body ( or the alternate for women ) necessitating sex reassignment surgery, why should we deny a man who isn't confortable with his homosexual feelings, the genetic/neurological treatment to resolve those issues ?

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Mods, please split this off if we're getting off topic.

But I don't see the distinction StringJunky.

In one case we are manipulating a person's physical make-up so that they better 'fit' into their perceived place in society.

And in the other genetically/neurologically manipulating them to better enable their perceived fit into society.

The salient point that iNow, DrmDoc, and I are putting across is that it is society that has the problem, not the individual with the crisis because society wants to pigeonhole them into discrete boxes; the idea of reassignment becomes moot.

 

In one scenario you are aligning the body with the brain

...., why should we deny a man who isn't confortable with his homosexual feelings, the genetic/neurological treatment to resolve those issues ?

If society was 90% homosexual and 10% heterosexual, what's the the odds on a homosexual person saying "I want to be a heterosexual?

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If people can be bisexual, why can't they be bigendered?

IMO, they can.

 

Also, this:

 

kinsey-scale.png

The idea that this is some binary state is part of why the ignorance continues to unnecessarily perpetuate.

[mp][/mp]

...why should we deny a man who isn't confortable with his homosexual feelings, the genetic/neurological treatment to resolve those issues ?

Is anyone talking about denying this? You've confused me.

The point I'm hearing is that we must let people be who they are and stop trying to force every square peg to fit through society's rigid rectangular hole.

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DrmDoc, thank you for the reference, I will read it! But do you know or have more articles more specifically related on the area, but involving people without gender dysphoria(just researching the orientation)? I haven't found a research from 2016, and it seems many stuff is inconclusive... Are we that far from understanding it, like, more than 20 years?
About the discussion, I confess I was afraid the topic could went into ethics, as it seems to be hard to focus on touchy topics always '_' But I guess a more clever way to reask the same question is ' How far are we to identify the circuitry involved in sexual orientation? And for those who, in an equal society, still wanting to change it, how long science seems to deliver that kind of approach? '
Btw MigL got the point. We want to kill the norms towards all these questions, but the question still remains.. I just want to know the science on that...and the only way is asking. Google or the general press aren't useful (if you try a search, theres only religious stuff, press trends or few good articles, most outdated) . I mean, these academic articles dont seem to be abundant in this particular subject, so I still want to know what you people think about it, and whats going on on that subject. I've tried Pubmed, but it's not an abundant field of research

Edited by Johncr8992

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Due to the many problems associated with this subject and the resulting paucity of such research evidence, perhaps it might be better to look at some other aspect of human behaviour that runs on the same basic mechanism but not so problematic ethically.

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But I guess that's the problem. The brain is so complex that it seems there are specific circuitry that can't be compared with nothing. We need to separate and identify all of them(so the sexual circuitry must be identified, like the short term memory mechanism, the spatial memory mechanism, the visual circuitry involving from the retin to the occipital lobes). I remember reading about optogenetics going to be tested in humans, soon, as a safe way to possibly threat Parkinson. Maybe this can be a good way to safely study the human brain as well, activating or inactivating temporaly brain areas and under strict control and management, to see their effects. I guess it's our best shot at uncovering the brain. Personally I don't believe animal research on that will provide answers. It can be useful to determine safety, but there are many important differences, more noticeable in the brain and mind study than in other areas

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For the ethical issues explained above, science as a general rule isn't wasting a lot of research dollars trying to figure out how to change someone's neural structure in ways that will change their sexual or gender preferences. The premise itself is flawed, IMO. You're looking for a type of "plastic surgery for the mind" that simply doesn't exist and worse still that is motivated and inspired mostly by religious and societal intolerance.

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Well, that's not so simple iNow. As previously stated, people may want that for different reasons, some very personal. Not always is because of religion or societal intolerance, as I said a few comments before. And this aspect is just an application. Once we uncover the brain mysteries, it's possible to develop such a thing, even without lots of funds, because the basic knowledge will be there. Applications can come in may shapes, good or bad (remember the atomic bomb, a terrible application, and the Eintein's main theory, with a complete different purpose),There are many polemic research going on, and personally I don't think they are going to be blocked forever. And I know there's nothing like that right now, that's why I made the question in terms of when we were going to develop the knowledge on the subject, even if it's only the knowledge of the sexual circuitry per se. Regarding the ethics problem, I found an interesting review about that.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21507740.2013.863242

' Taken together, the preceding arguments suggest that the possible development of “high-tech conversion therapy” need not (necessarily) be a cause for alarm. First, such therapy could (and should) be regulated, not only on grounds of safety,14 but also to ensure that that children and other vulnerable parties would be protected from its coercive application. Second, it might be used to relieve profound suffering for some individuals (even if this suffering g were, in fact, due to unjust social pressures). And finally, it could be used in a process of self-creation, for those who wanted to experience alternative sexual and/or relational orientations, whether from same-sex attraction to opposite-sex attraction, opposite-sex attraction to same-sex attraction, or other possibilities in between.

There's an interesting discussion about the dillemmas and here's where I based some of my ideas. Feel free to read the article, seems good and deal with some important points

Edited by Johncr8992

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' ... (even if this suffering g were, in fact, due to unjust social pressures)

It's nice to see your reference acknowledging the true cause that we've highlighted. It's a whole other discussion whether the medical establishment should support someone surgically to address those social pressures. To do so would be to relent to the whims of those that support such injustice.

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Well... I suppose there could be changes made using lobotomy or shock therapy or TMS if (for incredibly unlikely reasons that are entirely unrelated to the passing and generational whims and biases of the public) one wanted to forcibly change their thinking about sexual issues.

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Yes, this can be the goal for many. But other people can want that change as well for different reasons (that why it's ' even' , not ' like'. There's a mention for people that want to change even in cultures that accept that very well, and with families and friends supporting them). The scenarium I stated would be like, even in a complete equal society, some don't feel ok with that and want to change. I guess is the same moral dilemma if we consider physical modifications like plastic surgery, also due to societal pressures, and that are able to be perfomed and are now normalized. The byproduct of acceptance of LGBT is that you should accept your condition, no matter what(we see this subtle on the discussion. The problem is that we need to evolve to both plenty acceptance and the right to change as well). The ideal world is having the way to live normally like that, and to have the chance to change as well. That's what I'm saying in the end. In the article, the conclusions say that this should be allowed, although regulations for kids and people with no conditions to actually make this choice.

iNow, this was in the past, and it is very damaging (except maybe TMS). What I'm wondering is if the use of CRISPR, genetically changing the receptors sensitivity for some stymulus, and also the use of optogenetics, nanotechnology, and the future technologies that are coming, in general, can make a revolution in everything concepting not only sexual orientation, but mental ilnesses (such as schyzophrenia, autism, and many others), and the mind as well. Don't you believe we can really map the human brain and uncover it one day? We are still so limited on this field, but I always read hoping news about everything for the future

Edited by Johncr8992

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