Looking at infinity with human eyes

[Guest hebrewboy]

I think the way one tries to grasp inifinity in the mind is highly subjective. This is how I imagine it:

 

Infinity has no beginning and has no end--like a Mobius strip. Or it is a process that can be repeated without ever stopping or reaching the end--like zooming into a fractal. If one can understand the concept of zero' date=' one can grasp infinity, as one can imagine that infinity is a process with zero point of cessation, it is an existence with zero change.

 

Let me try putting it another way. When people usually imagine infinity, they usually try to think of a vaster than vast number or amount. Instead of doing that, try going the other way and think of the smallest number possible, like 0.0000.....(and so on and so forth).....0001. No matter how many zeros you put in between the decimal and the 1, the result will always be much larger than zero. Zero is the absolute limit of nothingness (let's not get into negative numbers right now), so infinity is the absolute limit of "somethingness." I suppose I'm trying to relate zero and infinity, as the two concepts are related in my mind.

 

I'm sort of using the right side of my brain as I'm writing this and finding it difficult translating my thoughts into a concrete explanation.[/quote']

 

 

I have similar picture of infinity in my mind. Zero or nothingness, or void. But I see this zero as a fractal zero ( infinitely continuous continuity ) or a Mobius Zero ( A zero without any beginning or end, a continuous zero ). But what I have in my mind is that this void is empty yet it is filled with stars, planets and galaxies.

[Guest hebrewboy]

Not if you think time is infinite' date=' and in that case cannot be a by-product of anything.

 

 

No, everything excluding infinity has a size. If infinity had a size, then it would be an object. Infinity is not an object. It is a concept.[/quote']

 

I fully disagree.

 

Everything has a size, shape or form, whatever it is. That includes infinity.

 

Of course you can disagree. Let me make a point : ------- . -------

 

As you can see from this period, pixel or point that it is very small. It could be as small as a photon ( a unit of light ) the size of which according to Max Planck is

1*6262 *10 to the power minus 34. Really a very small size or number that is how small a photon is.

 

But the point is I believe that you can measure the smallest and you can measure the largest, what you need is to review and renew mathematics that can handle amorphous shapes, forms and sizes and is able to deal with borderless and boundaryless things.

 

I believe to do that we need to renew our trillion and minus trillion or trillionth.

 

 

The argument is this: if it is there it can be measured. infinity is there, out there let us have a go at measuring it. So that we could see how much me have got to conquer yet!

 

 

hebrewboy

[Callipygous]

I fully disagree.

 

Everything has a size' date=' shape or form, whatever it is. That includes infinity.

 

Of course you can disagree. Let me make a point : ------- . -------

 

As you can see from this period, pixel or point that it is very small. It could be as small as a photon ( a unit of light ) the size of which according to Max Planck is

1*6262 *10 to the power minus 34. Really a very small size or number that is how small a photon is.

 

But the point is I believe that you can measure the smallest and you can measure the largest, what you need is to review and renew mathematics that can handle amorphous shapes, forms and sizes and is able to deal with borderless and boundaryless things.

 

I believe to do that we need to renew our trillion and minus trillion or trillionth.

 

 

The argument is this: if it is there it can be measured. infinity is there, out there let us have a go at measuring it. So that we could see how much me have got to conquer yet!

 

 

hebrewboy[/quote']

 

the real point is that thats not the way it is.

 

"Everything has a size, shape or form, whatever it is. That includes infinity."

 

thats close, with just one problem. everything EXCEPT infinity has size.

 

infinity is a concept. the very definition of infinity is LIMITLESS. if you could attach a size to it it would be limited.

 

no matter how small that period is its not INFINITELY small. it has size. it is measurable, and therefore has nothing infinite about it.

 

you cant measure infinity.

[Bettina]

Whenever we think of infinity or try to define in our minds how large infinity is, our answer becomes finite. Which is what you are doing. Thats the way the human mind works. Almost like saying "infinity is this big". If you size infinity, then it is no longer infinite.

 

However, suppose you are correct and that "infinity", as we apply it to space and time, does have a finite size. It only means that whatever this infinite universe is inside of must be bigger. Will we call that "infinity+1".

 

I would like to know where you are going with this. I'm still interested.

 

Bettina

[Dapthar]

Everything has a size, shape or form, whatever it is. That includes infinity.

Have you taken a Geometry class as of yet? If you haven't, you might want to consider the following definitions before you continue down the whole 'everything has a size and shape' path, for I believe the definitions below show that, at the very least, your assertion does not apply to Mathematical constructs. (The definitions shown below are from Wikipedia.)

 

Point: "An entity with a location in space but no extent (volume, area or length). In geometry, a point therefore captures the notion of location; no further information is captured."

 

Line: "An (infinitely) thin, (infinitely) long, straight geometrical object, i.e. a curve that is long and straight."

 

But the point I am raising is that up to now from the past 10 thousand years all the mathematics and science that we got they deal with closed systems or limited things and systems.

That's not exactly correct. In colloquial terms, Calculus deals with 'the infinite and the infinitesimal', and was invented over 300 years ago.

 

We have not got yet language, philosophy, theology, mathematics and sciece that can deal with boundary less, borderless, and limitless infinitely open things or open systems. We need to develop science that can deal with things at infinity level.

See my above response. Of course those who are familiar with Calculus may find fault with my above description of it, however, there are other fields in Mathematics ([math joke]No pun intended. Well, maybe just a little one. [/math joke]) that deal with infinity and infinitesimals in a more concrete manner, such as Non-Standard Analysis.

[Macroscopic]

But the point is I believe that you can measure the smallest and you can measure the largest, what you need is to review and renew mathematics that can handle amorphous shapes, forms and sizes and is able to deal with borderless and boundaryless[/u'] things.

You can't measure something without borders because what you measure is the distance between the borders. Infinity cannot have a size because size deals with finite objects. If infinity had a size there could be a bigger size, and then it wouldn't be infinity because something would be bigger than it.

Let's assume that infinity can be measured, and has been. Let's call it x. What about x+1, x*2, and x^99999999? Infinity cannot have a size. A size exists within something larger. If infinity had a size, that would mean it exists within something larger.

Everything has a size, shape or form, whatever it is. That includes infinity.

Infinity is not a thing.

[Flareon]

The argument is this: if it is there it can be measured. infinity is there' date=' out there let us have a go at measuring it. So that we could see how much me have got to conquer yet!

 

 

hebrewboy[/quote']

 

Okay, how's this: 10^∞

 

I think Macroscopic's signature is quite poignant btw.

[Macroscopic]

Okay, how's this: 10^∞

 

Yeah, try working that one out! Have fun.

[Callipygous]

really really big.

[Guest hebrewboy]

the real point is that thats not the way it is.

 

"Everything has a size' date=' shape or form, whatever it is. That includes infinity."

 

thats close, with just one problem. everything EXCEPT infinity has size.

 

infinity is a concept. the very definition of infinity is LIMITLESS. if you could attach a size to it it would be limited.

 

no matter how small that period is its not INFINITELY small. it has size. it is measurable, and therefore has nothing infinite about it.

 

you cant measure infinity.[/quote']

 

 

When you say infinity is a concept, you also say everything except infinity has size.

 

The first thing I want to say is that infinity is as real as your breath, it not just a concept. it is more than that. It is real and is it there and everywhere around here and anywhere elswhere as well.

 

It is the infinite bubble created by God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses and then filled with stars, galaxies and constellations. Yes that is what it is!

 

To you it might not have any size, for me anything in creation has its size shape, and form. It is a different matter whether we can understand and comprehend that shape, size and form.

 

The problem which people find hard to understand is to relate TIME and INFINITY. They cannot seperate or combine them together in shape or size or form so that it will make sense to them.

 

 

You see, Time is subjective feeling or subjective estimate of something. While Infinity is objective, it is not subjective. It is out there. It is right here in and around you. You see, time is just a feeling or perception of some movement, motion, event, action, or job. It cannot me seperated from that particular movement, action, or event. While infinity is in which that occurs or happens can be separed from time. Infinity is like the Room or Palace or Place where time is felt, perceived, conceived, imagined or touched upon.

 

Infinity is like the spread sheet of time and space. It is space. It is time. It is Space-Time or spacetime, but it is more than just time or space on its own.

 

I will say space at minute level or tiny level could be as small as a photon:

 

1*6262*10 to power minus 34 ( like infinitely small )

 

or it could be

 

1.6262*10 to power thousand trillion ( like infinitely large )

 

 

Whichever way it is it is space. I do not want to bring in the particle or wave theoy of physics here, I am just trying to describe what space is whether tiny space or as small as a photon or large space as large as the Millky Way Galaxy or the Andromeda Galaxy.

 

I hope you are clear now that infinity is not just a concept. It is real space in and around you and time in and around you.

 

hebrewboy

[Flareon]

When you say infinity is a concept' date=' you also say everything except infinity has size.

 

The first thing I want to say is that infinity is as real as your breath, it not just a concept. it is more than that. It is real and is it there and everywhere around here and anywhere elswhere as well.

 

It is the infinite bubble created by God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses and then filled with stars, galaxies and constellations. Yes that is what it is!

 

To you it might not have any size, for me anything in creation has its size shape, and form. It is a different matter whether we can understand and comprehend that shape, size and form.

 

The problem which people find hard to understand is to relate TIME and INFINITY. They cannot seperate or combine them together in shape or size or form so that it will make sense to them.

 

 

You see, Time is subjective feeling or subjective estimate of something. While Infinity is objective, it is not subjective. It is out there. It is right here in and around you. You see, time is just a feeling or perception of some movement, motion, event, action, or job. It cannot me seperated from that particular movement, action, or event. While infinity is in which that occurs or happens can be separed from time. Infinity is like the Room or Palace or Place where time is felt, perceived, conceived, imagined or touched upon.

 

Infinity is like the spread sheet of time and space. It is space. It is time. It is Space-Time or spacetime, but it is more than just time or space on its own.

 

I will say space at minute level or tiny level could be as small as a photon:

 

1*6262*10 to power minus 34 ( like infinitely small )

 

or it could be

 

1.6262*10 to power thousand trillion ( like infinitely large )

 

 

Whichever way it is it is space. I do not want to bring in the particle or wave theoy of physics here, I am just trying to describe what space is whether tiny space or as small as a photon or large space as large as the Millky Way Galaxy or the Andromeda Galaxy.

 

I hope you are clear now that infinity is not just a concept. It is real space in and around you and time in and around you.

 

hebrewboy[/quote']

 

Your "God" is a shortcut to thinking.

[Callipygous]

To you it might not have any size, for me anything in creation has its size shape, and form. It is a different matter whether we can understand and comprehend that shape, size and form.

 

im sorry, but there is no opinion about any of this. infinity is the word we use to describe things that cant be measured. thats the definition of the word. its not like infinity is a thing that just happens to be really really big. the entire purpose of the word is for things beyond measure.

 

1*6262*10 to power minus 34 ( like infinitely small )

 

or it could be

 

1.6262*10 to power thousand trillion ( like infinitely large )

 

NO. NOT infinitely small or large. very very small and very very large. NOT INFINITELY. infinity doesnt mean "gods universe". go look up the word. the ONLY thing it means, and the only reason its a word at all, is things with no limit. if it has no limit you cant measure it.

 

 

i think the main problem here is your obsession with religion. your trying to use infinity to mean all the lovely beautiful stuff your god made. thats not it. your looking for a discussion on spacetime, or "the universe", not infinity.

[Flareon]

It is the infinite bubble created by God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses and then filled with stars, galaxies and constellations. Yes that is what it is!

 

Bubbles?!?

 

By any chance, are you and ChristSlave the one and the same person?

[Guest hebrewboy]

Whenever we think of infinity or try to define in our minds how large infinity is' date=' our answer becomes finite. Which is what you are doing. Thats the way the human mind works. Almost like saying "infinity is this big". If you size infinity, then it is no longer infinite.

 

However, suppose you are correct and that "infinity", as we apply it to space and time, does have a finite size. It only means that whatever this infinite universe is inside of must be bigger. Will we call that "infinity+1".

 

I would like to know where you are going with this. I'm still interested.

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

 

Bettina I must say to you that you have a different picture of infinity in your mind. What I have in my mind is infinity but no time is involved. Time is not relevant in my picture of infinity.

 

You see as we measure the earth with longitude and Latitude and equator in a similar way we can imagine infinity and devise similar measurements to measure infinity. As for as "infinity+1" idea is concerned I have no objection to it if it will be helpful in quantifying in infinity.

 

 

 

hebrewboy

[Guest hebrewboy]

Have you taken a Geometry class as of yet? If you haven't' date=' you might want to consider the following definitions before you continue down the whole 'everything has a size and shape' path, for I believe the definitions below show that, at the very least, your assertion does not apply to Mathematical constructs. ([i']The definitions shown below are from Wikipedia.[/i])

 

Point: "An entity with a location in space but no extent (volume, area or length). In geometry, a point therefore captures the notion of location; no further information is captured."

 

Line: "An (infinitely) thin, (infinitely) long, straight geometrical object, i.e. a curve that is long and straight."

 

That's not exactly correct. In colloquial terms, Calculus deals with 'the infinite and the infinitesimal', and was invented over 300 years ago.

 

See my above response. Of course those who are familiar with Calculus may find fault with my above description of it, however, there are other fields in Mathematics ([math joke]No pun intended. Well, maybe just a little one. [/math joke]) that deal with infinity and infinitesimals in a more concrete manner, such as Non-Standard Analysis.

 

==========================================

 

 

23. geometry dimensionless geometric element: a dimensionless geometric element whose location in space is defined solely by its coordinates.

Geometric figures such as circles, planes, or spheres can be treated as if they are sets of points.

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

 

 

I understand Geometry. I also understand the geometric definition of point. As the above definition states it has no dimensions. It is solely defined for location purposes by its co-ordinates.

 

That is exactly what I want to point out or raise the issue with. The Cartesian Coordinates are useful when we know these four bearings:

 

Noth, South, East and West. But when we have no bearings to go by then cartesian coordinates would not help much will they?

 

Your definition of the point says that point has no area, length or volume. But you see infinity although boundless it should have area, length, width, depth, volume and boundary or circumference or periphery. Because it is not a geometrical thing like a point, but it is real space: Like photons, electrons, leptons, gluons and Quarks and things like that.

 

 

I think what we need is similar words or ideas that can describe chunks of space bigger than the planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies or constellations.

 

 

I have studied geometry three times:

 

once in primary school from 1960-1962 in Pakistan.

 

Then in High School from 1962-1967 in Pakistan.

 

Then in college from 1981-982 in Great Britain.

 

I am fimaliar with GCSE and Advanced Level Mathematics although I have not studied Mathemartics at Degree Level.

 

 

 

hebrewboy

[Guest hebrewboy]

Okay' date=' how's this: 10^∞

 

I think Macroscopic's signature is quite poignant btw.[/quote']

 

 

Amen! to That. I think that is how big infinity is!

 

But please make it like this:

 

1,000,000,000,000,000,000 * 10 to the power 10,000,000 thousand trillion.

 

Amen to that!

 

hebrewboy

[Callipygous]

Amen! to That. I think that is how big infinity is!

 

But please make it like this:

 

1' date='000,000,000,000,000,000 * 10 to the power 10,000,000 thousand trillion.

 

Amen to that!

 

hebrewboy[/quote']

 

 

"1,000,000,000,000,000,000 * 10 to the power 10,000,000 thousand trillion."

 

ISNT INFINITE.

 

10 to the infinity is infinite, THAT is not.

[Flareon]

"1' date='000,000,000,000,000,000 * 10 to the power 10,000,000 thousand trillion."

 

ISNT INFINITE.

 

10 to the infinity is infinite, THAT is not.[/quote']

 

It may not be infinite, but it is infinuff. Infinuff being the exact amount required to convince a layman (that's a euphemism if you ever heard one) that his/her inifinuff is actually infinITE, which in this particular case amounts to exactly 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 * 10 to the power 10,000,000 thousand trillion.

[Guest hebrewboy]

Bubbles?!?

 

By any chance' date=' are you and ChristSlave the one and the same person?[/quote']

 

 

No I am not the same.

 

hebrewboy

[Guest hebrewboy]

"1' date='000,000,000,000,000,000 * 10 to the power 10,000,000 thousand trillion."

 

ISNT INFINITE.

 

10 to the infinity is infinite, THAT is not.[/quote']

 

 

I agree.

 

But the point is that it is just to comprehend the size of infinity. How big it is.

 

10 * to the power infinity is really infinite and it represents infinity.

 

hebrewboy

[Guest hebrewboy]

It may not be infinite, but it is infinuff. Infinuff being the exact amount required to convince a layman (that's a euphemism if you ever heard one) that his/her inifinuff is actually infinITE, which in this particular case amounts to exactly 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 * 10 to the power 10,000,000 thousand trillion.

 

 

The point is that the calculus of Newton, and other people like that have not seen infinitely small or infinitely large numbers.

 

Numbers like Planck's 1.6262*10 to the power minus 34

 

 

or as I suggested one trillion to the power * 10 to the power 10 million thousand trillion.

 

You see you can go 0.000,000,000,000,000,000 ................. until you reach minus 34 to reach the size of a unit of light or a photon according to German son Max Planck.

 

In the same way you can go 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times 10 to power infinite trillions to reach the size of infinity or roughly thereabout.

 

As for as I am concerened

 

you can go as for as minus as you want to go

 

1 minus 10 to the power 50, 75, 99, 100, 200, 500, 1000, or million or more.

 

or you can go 10 to power infinity.

 

 

 

The point is that there is dark matter or black matter in the universe, which does not respond to electromagnetic spectrum waves, radio waves or radio astronomy. We need to enlarge the elecrtomagnetic spectrum so that it could include minus to the power 1,000,000 or more minute level waves or particles.

 

 

You see for centuries it has been accepted that light travels at

 

186,000 miles per second.

 

 

I believe it travels at speeds at least 700 times more than that like

 

786,000 miles per second or even faster than that. I have no scientific proof but I feel that it does.

 

 

So as you can see, if we enlarge 0.001 or 1,000,000 on either side we can create new measures that help us the size of things infinitely small and infinitely large. And help us understand the Kingdom of God beter than before!

 

 

hebrewboy

[RedAlert]

In my opinion, people who want to do a worthless thing like picturing infinity, are really stupid people.

 

Why are you asking how big it is? You obviously don't know what infinity is if you are asking how big it is.

 

Definition of infinity:

1 Unbounded space, time, or quantity.

2 An indefinitely large number or amount.

 

Why then, would someone ask how big infinity is?

[[Tycho?]]

The point is that the calculus of Newton' date=' and other people like that have not seen infinitely small or infinitely large numbers.

 

Numbers like Planck's 1.6262*10 to the power minus 34

 

 

or as I suggested one trillion to the power * 10 to the power 10 million thousand trillion.

 

You see you can go 0.000,000,000,000,000,000 ................. until you reach minus 34 to reach the size of a unit of light or a photon according to German son Max Planck.

 

In the same way you can go 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times 10 to power infinite trillions to reach the size of infinity or roughly thereabout.

 

As for as I am concerened

 

you can go as for as minus as you want to go

 

1 minus 10 to the power 50, 75, 99, 100, 200, 500, 1000, or million or more.

 

or you can go 10 to power infinity.

 

 

 

The point is that there is dark matter or black matter in the universe, which does not respond to electromagnetic spectrum waves, radio waves or radio astronomy. We need to enlarge the elecrtomagnetic spectrum so that it could include minus to the power 1,000,000 or more minute level waves or particles.

 

 

You see for centuries it has been accepted that light travels at

 

186,000 miles per second.

 

 

I believe it travels at speeds at least 700 times more than that like

 

786,000 miles per second or even faster than that. I have no scientific proof but I feel that it does.

 

 

So as you can see, if we enlarge 0.001 or 1,000,000 on either side we can create new measures that help us the size of things infinitely small and infinitely large. And help us understand the Kingdom of God beter than before!

 

 

hebrewboy[/quote']

 

Troll or joke or genuinely incompetant?

 

Shut up, either way.

[Guest hebrewboy]

In my opinion' date=' people who want to do a worthless thing like [i']picturing[/i] infinity, are really stupid people.

 

Why are you asking how big it is? You obviously don't know what infinity is if you are asking how big it is.

 

Definition of infinity:

1 Unbounded space, time, or quantity.

2 An indefinitely large number or amount.

 

Why then, would someone ask how big infinity is?

 

==============================================

 

better definition of infinity from Microsoft Encarta World English Dictionary

 

infinity

 

in·fin·i·ty [in fínnitee]

(plural in·fin·i·ties)

noun

1. something without limits: limitless time, space, or distance

beyond the Earth lay infinity

 

2. something too great to count: an amount or number so great that it cannot be counted

an infinity of stars

 

3. state of being infinite: the state or quality of being infinite

4. mathematics concept of being always unlimited: the concept of being unlimited by always being larger than any imposed value or boundary. For some purposes this may be considered as being the same as one divided by zero.

5. geometry geometric point at infinite distance: a part of a geometric figure situated an infinite distance from the observer, for example, the hypothetical point at which parallel lines meet in Euclidean geometry

6. optics infinitely distant point: a point sufficiently far from a lens or mirror that the light emitted from it falls in parallel rays on the surface

 

 

[14th century. From French infinité , from, ultimately, Latin infinitus (see infinite).]

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

 

===================================================

 

quantum

 

quan·tum [kwóntəm]

noun (plural quan·ta [kwóntə])

1. physics smallest quantity of energy: the smallest discrete quantity of a physical property, for example, electromagnetic radiation or angular momentum

2. physics smallest unit: the smallest unit used to measure a physical property. For example, the quantum of electromagnetic radiation is the photon.

3. quantity: a quantity or amount of anything

4. particular amount: a particular quantity or portion

 

 

adjective

major: sudden, dramatic, and significant

 

 

[Early 17th century. From Latin , formed from quantus “how much” (see quantity).]

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

 

================================================

 

 

The point is that quantum theory looks at things that are very small. Like electrons and atoms. and it is not stupid is it?

 

In the same way infinity theory looks at bigger things. Things at galaxy level, or constellation level. why should it be stupid?

 

We need both quantum theory and infinity theory to make sense of this universe.

 

 

hebrewboy

[Guest hebrewboy]

Okay' date=' how's this: 10^∞

 

I think Macroscopic's signature is quite poignant btw.[/quote']

 

 

10^∞ that is your infinity.

 

 

 

my infinity 10,000,000,000,000,000,000^∞ or more like it.

 

hebrewboy