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Looking at infinity with human eyes


Guest hebrewboy

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Guest hebrewboy

I want to discuss infinity.

 

What is the nature of infinity?

 

What is its shape, size and form?

 

Is is eternal, everlasting, and for ever or is it subject to the Life Cycle Concept?

 

Any feelings or ideas about infinity?

 

 

 

hebrewboy

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Try and picture infinity... Image a mountain of sand, one million miles high, and a single bird at the top, which removes one grain of sand every million years. The amount of time it takes for the bird to complete this task is huge...but it still comes no where near to infinity.

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I think your trying to preach. I would suggest you go to the religious forum. There have been many people like you that have come and gone after just a few posts. :)

 

Good luck to you...

 

Bettina

 

 

Thanks

 

I intend to stay a bit longer than you might think. Theologians and Philosophers are unable to explain infinity. So it is up to scientists to do the job. I hope you will be patient and bear the infinity debate.

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Try and picture infinity... Image a mountain of sand, one million miles high, and a single bird at the top, which removes one grain of sand every million years. The amount of time it takes for the bird to complete this task is huge...but it still comes no where near to infinity.

 

 

Good picture of infinity!

 

But the point is the mountain is infinitely high, the birds are in trillions and trillions and grains of sand or endless and countless.

 

The job is to use the imagination and describe infinity as best as one can.

 

The infinity with time as you have tried and

 

infinity without time as I have tried to describe.

 

TIME is the by product of infinity.

 

 

hebrewboy

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Thanks

 

I intend to stay a bit longer than you might think. Theologians and Philosophers are unable to explain infinity. So it is up to scientists to do the job. I hope you will be patient and bear the infinity debate.

 

Ok...If your serious, then I will join in.

 

What you are asking is difficult since we humans cannot comprehend things that are in a massive scale. For example, a science teacher once said something in class that I will never forget. He said "One thing humans cannot comprehend is the vastness of space" and he's right. The word "vastness" stuck with me. How can you imagine how large space is. You can't, and infinity is well beyond that. An unreachable end.

 

Just my thought. :)

 

Bettina

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"If infinity had a size, it wouldn't be infinity. There's always a bigger size, so infinity cannot have size."

 

i think that probably applys to shape and form as well. something cant be square if it doesnt have size because there has to be some point at which it turns 90 degrees.

 

if its round it has to have a particular curvature, which requires a definate radius.

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Guest hebrewboy
Ok...If your serious' date=' then I will join in.

 

What you are asking is difficult since we humans cannot comprehend things that are in a massive scale. For example, a science teacher once said something in class that I will never forget. He said "One thing humans cannot comprehend is the vastness of space" and he's right. The word "vastness" stuck with me. How can you imagine how large space is. You can't, and infinity is well beyond that. An unreachable end.

 

Just my thought. :)

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

I am serious............................ welcome to the debate.

 

The vastness of space is the truth I want people to understand. But the point I am raising is that up to now from the past 10 thousand years all the mathematics and science that we got they deal with closed systems or limited things and systems. We have not got yet language, philosophy, theology, mathematics and sciece that can deal with boundary less, borderless, and limitless infinitely open things or open systems. We need to develop science that can deal with things at infinity level. It will help us conquer infinity and populate infinity and exploit infinity!

 

hebrewboy

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How is that?

 

 

I believe human imagination is capable of visualizing anything. We can understand universe with boundaries or without boundaries but we have to put effort into it. Conceptual effort, Thinking effort, and Comprehension effort. Then we can make head and tail of the universe!

 

I said time is a by product of infinity, because infinity is bigger than time, it encapsulates everyting: Nothingness, space, time, and life and death.

Time itself is a separate debate, and is a major part of infinity debate.

 

hebrewboy

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"If infinity had a size' date=' it wouldn't be infinity. There's always a bigger size, so infinity cannot have size."

 

i think that probably applys to shape and form as well. something cant be square if it doesnt have size because there has to be some point at which it turns 90 degrees.

 

if its round it has to have a particular curvature, which requires a definate radius.[/quote']

 

 

Everything including infinity has a size. It is another matter whether this size is calculable or measureable or not!

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Alright, try and visualize the human imagination.

 

I will say human imagination is like a conceptual box, it is like a spiritual computer, a living thing with ability to conceive things and ideas.

 

======================================================

 

conceive

 

con·ceive [kən sv]

(past con·ceived, past participle con·ceived, present participle con·ceiv·ing, 3rd person present singular con·ceives)

verb

1. vti think of or imagine something: to form an idea or concept of something in your mind

2. vt invent, devise, or originate something: to think up something that could be put into action such as a plan or an invention

Conceived and written by John Sander

 

3. start to experience: to produce something from the mind such as an emotion

4. vti become pregnant: to become pregnant with a child or with young

5. vt understand: to understand something

 

 

[13th century. Via Old French conceiv- , the stem of concevoir , from Latin concipere , literally “to take in,” from capere (see capture).]

 

 

-con·ceiv·er, noun

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

====================================================

 

What is imagination

 

 

==================================================

 

 

imagination

 

i·mag·i·na·tion [i màjjə náysh’n]

(plural i·mag·i·na·tions)

noun

1. ability to visualize: the ability to form images and ideas in the mind, especially of things never seen or never experienced directly

2. creative part of the mind: the part of the mind where ideas, thoughts, and images are formed

3. resourcefulness: the ability to think of ways of dealing with difficulties or problems

4. creative act: an act of creating a semblance of reality, especially in literature

 

 

 

-i·mag·i·na·tion·al, adjective

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

 

 

==================================================

 

You see imagination is the clothes of the soul, with which soul sees and understands, interpolates or extrapolates ideas, things and events. It is part of intuition

 

 

===========================================

 

 

 

intuition

 

in·tu·i·tion [ìn too ísh’n]

(plural in·tu·i·tions)

noun

1. knowing something instinctively: the state of being aware of or knowing something without having to discover or perceive it, or the ability to do this

2. instinctive belief: something known or believed instinctively, without actual evidence for it

3. philosophy immediate knowledge: immediate knowledge of something

 

 

[15th century. Directly or via French from the late Latin stem intuition- “consideration,” ultimately from Latin intueri “to look upon,” from tueri “to look.”]

 

 

-in·tu·i·tion·al, adjective

-in·tu·i·tion·al·ly, adverb

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

================================================

 

intuition is that faculty of human imagination where you can conceive and perceive things without previous sensory experience.

 

 

I hope I have helped in making a rough picture of human imagination.

 

hebrewboy

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Everything including infinity has a size. It is another matter whether this size is calculable or measureable or not!

 

infinity, by definition, does not have size. thats what infinite means. (which, by the way, is why our brains ARE incapable of fully comprehending it)

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because infinity is bigger than time,

Not if you think time is infinite, and in that case cannot be a by-product of anything.

 

Everything including infinity has a size.

No, everything excluding infinity has a size. If infinity had a size, then it would be an object. Infinity is not an object. It is a concept.

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Perhaps the Tao would be more conducive to your philosophical ponderings than "infinity." However, remember that the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao

 

yeah, Tao is pretty much what hes talking about, but then he really would have to move this to the religious section. :P

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I think the way one tries to grasp inifinity in the mind is highly subjective. This is how I imagine it:

 

Infinity has no beginning and has no end--like a Mobius strip. Or it is a process that can be repeated without ever stopping or reaching the end--like zooming into a fractal. If one can understand the concept of zero, one can grasp infinity, as one can imagine that infinity is a process with zero point of cessation, it is an existence with zero change.

 

Let me try putting it another way. When people usually imagine infinity, they usually try to think of a vaster than vast number or amount. Instead of doing that, try going the other way and think of the smallest number possible, like 0.0000.....(and so on and so forth).....0001. No matter how many zeros you put in between the decimal and the 1, the result will always be much larger than zero. Zero is the absolute limit of nothingness (let's not get into negative numbers right now), so infinity is the absolute limit of "somethingness." I suppose I'm trying to relate zero and infinity, as the two concepts are related in my mind.

 

I'm sort of using the right side of my brain as I'm writing this and finding it difficult translating my thoughts into a concrete explanation.

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I am serious............................ welcome to the debate.

 

The vastness of space is the truth I want people to understand. But the point I am raising is that up to now from the past 10 thousand years all the mathematics and science that we got they deal with closed systems or limited things and systems. We have not got yet language' date=' philosophy, theology, mathematics and sciece that can deal with boundary less, borderless, and limitless infinitely open things or open systems. We need to develop science that can deal with things at infinity level. It will help us conquer infinity and populate infinity and exploit infinity!

 

hebrewboy[/quote']

 

I think I know what you are trying to say, but to say We need to develop science that can deal with things at infinity level. It will help us conquer infinity and populate infinity and exploit infinity! has got me stopped cold.

 

I have a very open mind....too open as a matter of fact....and I think science should reach out for everything, but for what purpose is it to pursue something that is beyond the scope of human comprehension and can never be reached. I understand what infinity means, but I can't imagine it.

 

And, I don't think science is dealing with "closed" systems or "limited" things. We deal with what we can comprehend to the max.

 

Bettina

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As humans cannot comprehend infinity, that might be an endless task.

 

Quite true, in the words of Douglas Adams...

 

It wasn't infinity in fact. Infinity itself looks flat and uninteresting. Looking up into the night sky is looking into infinity — distance is incomprehensible and therefore meaningless. The chamber into which the aircar emerged was anything but infinite, it was just very very big, so that it gave the impression of infinity far better than infinity itself.
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