Dylann Roof

[Bill Angel]

Of course they should seek the death penalty, but will the jury give it? After more comes out about the kind of guy he was, testimony from his family and friends, people may consider him less an adult. Imagine the science about domestic terrorism we can get from psychoanalyzing Dylann. They should analyze him long term, and make sure he lives a long life in prison so he is always handy for another interview or brain scan, or whatever test using better and better technology.

 

Or they may give him the death penalty, but postpone it for a few decades, same as above to learn as much about him as possible.

Your suggestions are good ones, but there is this provision in eighth amendment to the US Constitution prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment", which your suggested treatment of Dylann Roof could be construed as being.

[dimreepr]

 

Of course they should seek the death penalty, but will the jury give it? After more comes out about the kind of guy he was, testimony from his family and friends, people may consider him less an adult. Imagine the science about domestic terrorism we can get from psychoanalyzing Dylann. They should analyze him long term, and make sure he lives a long life in prison so he is always handy for another interview or brain scan, or whatever test using better and better technology.

 

Or they may give him the death penalty, but postpone it for a few decades, same as above to learn as much about him as possible.

 

 

 

If the victims family can forgive him, shouldn’t you?

[Airbrush]

...... there is this provision in eighth amendment to the US Constitution prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment", which your suggested treatment of Dylann Roof could be construed as being.

 

Defense attorney's try for life in prison, rather than the death penalty, for their clients. What's cruel and unusual about life in prison with continual, occasional interviews, brain scans, and other tests to find out what makes racist, domestic terrorists? What's so cruel about that? Is it more humane to leave him in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day? Maybe in 10 years they will have better methods for examining criminal minds.

If the victims family can forgive him, shouldn’t you?

 

Since they forgave him why not set him free?

 

Because they are devout Christians, they are required by their religion to forgive or they will look bad to their fellow Christians. We don't know their TRUE feelings.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

Since they forgave him why not set him free?

 

 

May I suggest you actually read my posts, specifically #40, before you attempt this ridiculous strawman.

 

 

They are devout Christians so they are required by their religion to forgive or they will look unChristlike to their fellow Christians. We don't know their TRUE feelings

 

 

 

It doesn’t matter if they forgive or not they are also victims of Dylan and deserve the choice; you have no connection so why do you deserve the choice?

.

[waitforufo]

 

 

 

"Bah. It's just niggers."

 

 

And I'm sure his defence will be crocodile tears all over that. "He is a young man with all sorts of hormones bubbling through his system. He was confused and not responsible for his actions and shouldn't die because of it. Look at him, everyone can see that." Translated: "Come on, people. It's just niggers. It's not like he killed somebody important."

 

Be interesting to see if there's any bloody difference between 1955 and 2015 Carolinas.

 

While not comfortable using the N-word, I think the above use was appropriate. I lived in the south for 4 years and that is just what the racists down their are thinking. We shouldn't shy away from the truth.

 

While no fan of the death penalty, given that this is happening in a state with a pretty strong history of executions, what does it say if they don't seek it?

Some people need to be isolated forever from the general populous. We can either execute them or lock them up for life without parole. So because of their own actions society has two rotten choices. I am firmly against the death penalty, but I cant say that locking a human being in a cage for life isn't cruel and unusual punishment. With a life without parole sentence, which one of us wouldn't be nuts in a week. While I'm against the death penalty, I do think strong arguments can be made that the death penalty is more humane than life without parole.

 

Fortunately in this case, I have no problem with caging this person forever.

 

If the death penalty is available the prosecution has to push for that sentence. Can you imagine if they didn't. What's the ratio of blacks to whites on death row. What is the ratio of blacks to whites in the general populous. Do you really even need to look it up?

[Airbrush]

"When Dylann Roof was 14, the rocky marriage of his father and stepmother began to unravel, according to court records. It was 2008. His dad Bennett Roof had recently moved the family back to South Carolina after three years in Florida. Bennett Roof’s small construction company had fallen on hard times. And his stepmom, Paige Hastings, accused her husband of being controlling and physically abusing her, according to court records. She filed for divorce that year. The 10-year marriage was over..."

 

"About the same time his parents divorced, he dropped out of school in the ninth grade. Court filings in the 2008 divorce case include photos of bruises and scrapes Paige Hastings says she suffered after being beaten by Bennett Roof. “I was so scared of him that I knew I had to get out of this violent situation,” Hastings wrote in court papers. Bennett Roof and Paige Hastings had one child together, a young girl named Morgan, plus two children — Dylann and his older sister Amber Roof — from Bennett Roof’s previous marriage. The court record did not shed light on Dylann and Amber Roof’s relationship with their biological mom. Paige Hastings said she was the primary caregiver for the children. “I raised his kids from a very young age, took them to all of their activities and Benn’s kids have spent almost every weekend with me,” she wrote in a February 2009 affidavit. “Benn travels a great deal, usually 4 days a week, so I would always care for and raise his kids.”

 

"A friend wrote in a letter that Hastings was involved in Dylann’s life — even after the couple separated in 2008.

“She always made sure Dylann was able to visit his father, even taking him to and from his house almost every weekend. She has been very active in all of the children’s lives for the past 10 years...."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/06/22/dylann-roofs-teenage-years-marked-by-fathers-bitter-divorce/

Edited June 25, 2015 by Airbrush

[swansont]

While not comfortable using the N-word, I think the above use was appropriate. I lived in the south for 4 years and that is just what the racists down their are thinking. We shouldn't shy away from the truth.

 

Some people need to be isolated forever from the general populous. We can either execute them or lock them up for life without parole. So because of their own actions society has two rotten choices. I am firmly against the death penalty, but I cant say that locking a human being in a cage for life isn't cruel and unusual punishment. With a life without parole sentence, which one of us wouldn't be nuts in a week. While I'm against the death penalty, I do think strong arguments can be made that the death penalty is more humane than life without parole.

 

Which is a completely separate issue.

If the death penalty is available the prosecution has to push for that sentence. Can you imagine if they didn't.

 

That's the issue. If this will be treated the same way as if the racial roles had been different.

"When Dylann Roof was 14, the rocky marriage of his father and stepmother began to unravel, according to court records. It was 2008. His dad Bennett Roof had recently moved the family back to South Carolina after three years in Florida. Bennett Roof’s small construction company had fallen on hard times. And his stepmom, Paige Hastings, accused her husband of being controlling and physically abusing her, according to court records. She filed for divorce that year. The 10-year marriage was over..."

 

"About the same time his parents divorced, he dropped out of school in the ninth grade. Court filings in the 2008 divorce case include photos of bruises and scrapes Paige Hastings says she suffered after being beaten by Bennett Roof. “I was so scared of him that I knew I had to get out of this violent situation,” Hastings wrote in court papers. Bennett Roof and Paige Hastings had one child together, a young girl named Morgan, plus two children — Dylann and his older sister Amber Roof — from Bennett Roof’s previous marriage. The court record did not shed light on Dylann and Amber Roof’s relationship with their biological mom. Paige Hastings said she was the primary caregiver for the children. “I raised his kids from a very young age, took them to all of their activities and Benn’s kids have spent almost every weekend with me,” she wrote in a February 2009 affidavit. “Benn travels a great deal, usually 4 days a week, so I would always care for and raise his kids.”

 

"A friend wrote in a letter that Hastings was involved in Dylann’s life — even after the couple separated in 2008.

“She always made sure Dylann was able to visit his father, even taking him to and from his house almost every weekend. She has been very active in all of the children’s lives for the past 10 years...."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/06/22/dylann-roofs-teenage-years-marked-by-fathers-bitter-divorce/

 

 

And?

 

Plenty of kids whose parents got divorced don't go on a racially-motivated shooting spree, or even just shift their views to extreme bigotry. Virtually all of them, in fact. So this is moot?

[Airbrush]

And?

 

Plenty of kids whose parents got divorced don't go on a racially-motivated shooting spree, or even just shift their views to extreme bigotry. Virtually all of them, in fact. So this is moot?

 

That is the question, "Why do some kids that had abusive fathers become spree shooters, and others don't?

 

Psychology is not a pseudoscience. Let's figure out Dylann, and take our time doing it, even decades. I volunteer to interview him. In advance I will study up on white supremist groups, and then I will befriend Dylann and try to convince him that I agree with him, that I am also a racist like him, that I don't think what he did was so bad after all, you know, good cop strategy.

 

Dylann's father was a piece of work. His second mom, the one that raised him with father absent most of the time, took Dylann to his father's place "almost every weekend". Sounds like a great opportunity for father-son bonding. Were there any confederate flags in or around the father's house?

 

It takes a piece of work to create a piece of work.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

 

That is the question, "Why do some kids that had abusive fathers become spree shooters, and others don't?

 

Psychology is not a pseudoscience. Let's figure out Dylann, and take our time doing it, even decades. I volunteer to interview him. In advance I will study up on white supremist groups, and then I will befriend Dylann and try to convince him that I agree with him, that I am also a racist like him, that I don't think what he did was so bad after all, you know, good cop strategy.

 

Dylann's father was a piece of work. His second mom, the one that raised him with father absent most of the time, took Dylann to his father's place "almost every weekend". Sounds like a great opportunity for father-son bonding. Were there any confederate flags in or around the father's house?

 

It takes a piece of work to create a piece of work.

 

 

 

This is exactly why he deserves a chance at rehabilitation; not just a guinea pig.

[MigL]

I've come into this a little late, but I find it strange that the Confederate flag can be viewed as a symbol of all the things wrong with the American South ( past and present ). Maybe Americans put too much significance on flags.

 

Should we also do away with one of the greatest movies ever made ?

Gone With The Wind certainly paints a 'rosy' picture of the American South around the time of the Civil war. It makes the Confederate cause seem like a noble one, not related to the slave owning culture at all, and is patronizing to African Americans.

 

Should we do away with it because it might inspire ( crazy ) people who long for 'better' times past ?

[swansont]

 

Should we also do away with one of the greatest movies ever made ?

Gone With The Wind certainly paints a 'rosy' picture of the American South around the time of the Civil war. It makes the Confederate cause seem like a noble one, not related to the slave owning culture at all, and is patronizing to African Americans.

 

Should we do away with it because it might inspire ( crazy ) people who long for 'better' times past ?

 

Hyperbole

 

‘Are we living in Nazi Germany?’: Nutters freak out about imaginary ban on ‘Gone With the Wind’

 

Companies voluntarily not selling a product because of its negative connotations is market economics, not a ban. Boycotts work the same way. Nobody is coming for your copy of GWTW

[CEngelbrecht]

I find it strange that the Confederate flag can be viewed as a symbol of all the things wrong with the American South ( past and present ). Maybe Americans put too much significance on flags.

 

The confederate cross is the de facto swastika of North America. It symbolizes this:

 

 

Had you really forgotten? This is a human being, who had his back torn out by a leather whip by a violent criminal, whom a sick culture didn't deem eligible for punishment. "It's just a n****r." Simply because this man's ancestry lived under more sun than the ancestry of the criminal swinging the whip.

 

THAT is what the confederate cross will forever symbolize. It was designed specifically to represent that sick culture. That's why violent psychos all over the world still use it. It was, is and will always be the slave flag. It doesn't symbolize "we just want to be left alone, Washington" and never will. It doesn't symbolize sexy Hollywood stars with busoms in expensive garments dreaming back to happy days, when "n****rs did as their were told, so us good white folk could live our God given life style." Exactly as how the swastika will always symbolize camps of industrialized genocide, aimed at an ethnicity who by an equally sick culture were pseudoscientifically deemed subhuman and subject to being "expedited." The swastika doesn't symbolize "restored German honor after the humiliating conditions in the treaty of Versailles" and never will. Even if somewhere in Dresden, a ninety-something year old geezer can't let go of his glory days driving a tank across the fields of France, while he keeps blabbing about all the good Hitler did for Germany before the war.

Dylan Roof chose that symbol to illustrate his madness for a reason. Just as he chose the flags of Apartheid-era South Africa and white-supremacy Rhodesia as well. While burning the Stars and Stripes. Hell, he probably didn't throw the swastika in for good measure, 'cause he didn't have to.

There is no pride to be found for white Southerners in the confederate cross. It only tells the story of as shameful a chapter of their history as the nazi era were for the Germans. The Germans at least banned the Swastika from all public life. Why the hell are they suddenly better than Americans on this? Why the hell are we even discussing this? Can you really not see beyond Vivien Leighs t**s???

Edited June 29, 2015 by CEngelbrecht

[MigL]

Well she did have a 'presence', didn't she...

But no, I don't have a copy of GWTW, and wouldn't really care if they took it away ( don't touch my Diehard, though ).

 

The point I was trying to make, however, is the problem with the people and mindset of southerners ? Or is the problem the flag they have chosen to rally under ?

Is the problem the German mindset in the 30s or is it the swastika ?

The problem is not removed with the banning of the symbol.

There will always be another symbol for oppression and hatred.

[iNow]

is the problem with the people and mindset of southerners ? Or is the problem the flag they have chosen to rally under ?

Is the problem the German mindset in the 30s or is it the swastika ?

Both. These are not mutually exclusive in the way you suggest.

 

The problem is not removed with the banning of the symbol.

Perhaps not, but the flag wasn't banned anyway. That's not happening here, so let's try to better focus our comments.

 

Some retailers chose to stop selling it due to the feelings it triggers within vast swaths of the population and states are removing it from state grounds so people who see that flag and immediately become repulsed from the violence and oppression and discrimination and terrorism and hatred is so imbues no longer have to feel separate and different and scared in their own cities and towns.

 

The flag was put up on those state grounds, not during or after the civil war, but during the 1969s as a sign of rebellion and racism when civil rights movements were occurring and the nation finally started taking seriously our constitutionally protected ideals of equality for all. It's been a controversial issue for decades, but no longer. It's crystal clear what that flag has come to mean and removing it from state grounds is the right thing to do so we are doing it.

 

Either way, that's not a ban. That's a recognition that we are better today than we were before.

 

There will always be another symbol for oppression and hatred.

Of course, and those too will be ostracized and shunned for they represent a mentality and ideology incongruent with the shared values under which we live in modern society.

[waitforufo]

 

 

 

 

 

This image and many more like it exist. Why not just require that any government that displays the stars and bars, must also at the same site display poster size versions of these images. If the display of the stars and bars is to honor valor and sacrifice in service to the confederacy, we should also at the same site display exactly what they were fighting for.

Edited June 29, 2015 by waitforufo

[Phi for All]

I've come into this a little late, but I find it strange that the Confederate flag can be viewed as a symbol of all the things wrong with the American South ( past and present ). Maybe Americans put too much significance on flags.

 

Should we also do away with one of the greatest movies ever made ?

Gone With The Wind certainly paints a 'rosy' picture of the American South around the time of the Civil war. It makes the Confederate cause seem like a noble one, not related to the slave owning culture at all, and is patronizing to African Americans.

 

Should we do away with it because it might inspire ( crazy ) people who long for 'better' times past ?

 

I've heard a lot of Americans are obsessed with the flag, but I don't think that's the problem. They don't play GWTW at the state capitol buildings in the South. Flags are symbols of allegiance and patriotism. I think you're generalizing "all things Confederate".

 

If I see someone reading a copy of Mein Kampf, I don't assume he's a Nazi, but if he's flying the Nazi flag....

[StringJunky]

 

..If I see someone reading a copy of Mein Kampf, I don't assume he's a Nazi, but if he's flying the Nazi flag..

Yes, flag-waving shows some kind of respect or allegiance to what that flag represents.

[Airbrush]

Some people need to be isolated forever from the general populous. We can either execute them or lock them up for life without parole. So because of their own actions society has two rotten choices. I am firmly against the death penalty, but I cant say that locking a human being in a cage for life isn't cruel and unusual punishment. With a life without parole sentence, which one of us wouldn't be nuts in a week. While I'm against the death penalty, I do think strong arguments can be made that the death penalty is more humane than life without parole.

 

Fortunately in this case, I have no problem with caging this person forever.

 

If he doesn't get the death penalty, obviously Dylann must be isolated from the general public, but also isolated from the other prisoners. But why must he just vegetate in a solitary cell for 23 hours a day? I suppose that hard labor is now considered cruel and unusual punishment. There must be something productive Dylann can do there all day long.

 

He would probably look forward to being interviewed, especially by someone friendly and sympathetic. That interviewer will become his best friend, so Dylann would likely tell all he really thinks and believes to his only friend, the psychologist.

 

His father did some terrible parenting and should be an example of how to create a monster. Dylann was driven by his second mom to his Dad's place almost every weekend. And during that time the father didn't have a clue his son was a ticking time bomb and decided his loner son should have a handgun. Shame on him.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

 

If he doesn't get the death penalty, obviously Dylann must be isolated from the general public, but also isolated from the other prisoners. But why must he just vegetate in a solitary cell for 23 hours a day? I suppose that hard labor is now considered cruel and unusual punishment. There must be something productive Dylann can do there all day long.

 

He would probably look forward to being interviewed, especially by someone friendly and sympathetic. That interviewer will become his best friend, so Dylann would likely tell all he really thinks and believes to his only friend, the psychologist.

 

His father did some terrible parenting and should be an example of how to create a monster. Dylann was driven by his second mom to his Dad's place almost every weekend. And during that time the father didn't have a clue his son was a ticking time bomb and decided his loner son should have a handgun. Shame on him.

 

 

 

If he's locked away from causing more harm, why do you care what form his punishment/rehabilitation takes?

 

 

Maybe, this time, you'll actually answer my question.

[swansont]

 

And during that time the father didn't have a clue his son was a ticking time bomb

 

Do we actually know this?

[waitforufo]

 

If he doesn't get the death penalty, obviously Dylann must be isolated from the general public, but also isolated from the other prisoners. But why must he just vegetate in a solitary cell for 23 hours a day? I suppose that hard labor is now considered cruel and unusual punishment. There must be something productive Dylann can do there all day long.

 

He would probably look forward to being interviewed, especially by someone friendly and sympathetic. That interviewer will become his best friend, so Dylann would likely tell all he really thinks and believes to his only friend, the psychologist.

 

Locked up is locked up. I don't care how big the prison is or who he talks to. The time he spends in solitary will be the time he wants to spend in solitary based on his actions. After a few weeks of constantly hearing doors lock my guess is he will choose to spend a lot of time in solitary. Especially when his psychologist treats him like a science project. More guinea pig than human. You know, so he can write a paper for a peer reviewed psychology journal or a tell all book. I'm sure they have top notch civil servant psychologist that are just great.

 

 

His father did some terrible parenting and should be an example of how to create a monster. Dylann was driven by his second mom to his Dad's place almost every weekend. And during that time the father didn't have a clue his son was a ticking time bomb and decided his loner son should have a handgun. Shame on him.

Blame his pappy all you want. I'm sure he was aware that point blank murdering people in cold blood was a crime. A really bad crime at that. See? There is no one to blame but Dylann.

 

 

There must be something productive Dylann can do there all day long.

I'm sure they will let him make crafts for sale to the general public. There's a strange bunch of people who collect things from mass murders. He ought to be able to earn a bit of pin money doing that while getting in touch with his artistic side.

[dimreepr]

 

Blame his pappy all you want. I'm sure he was aware that point blank murdering people in cold blood was a crime. A really bad crime at that. See? There is no one to blame but Dylann.

 

 

"No man is an island"

[Airbrush]

I'm sure they will let him make crafts for sale to the general public. There's a strange bunch of people who collect things from mass murders. He ought to be able to earn a bit of pin money doing that while getting in touch with his artistic side.

Especially when his psychologist treats him like a science project. More guinea pig than human. You know, so he can write a paper for a peer reviewed psychology journal or a tell all book. I'm sure they have top notch civil servant psychologist that are just great.

 

Can we can agree that Dylann should do something productive that earns money that can be given to the victims families? If he gets life in prison, then he should be motivated to do something of value that he knows is going to his victims families for the rest of his life. The motivation for such a detestable task for a racist, will be different levels of confinement, some of which are much less pleasant than the others, which all depends upon his willingness to work for his victims families.

 

Any psychologist that is worth his salt will be skillful in handling unusual people. All the psychologist needs to do is show empathy, something alien to Dylann, and I assure you the boy will become cooperative, since the alternative is solitary confinement.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Airbrush

[CEngelbrecht]

 

Can we can agree that Dylann should do something productive that earns money that can be given to the victims families? If he gets life in prison, then he should be motivated to do something of value that he knows is going to his victims families for the rest of his life. That motivation will be different levels of confinement, some of which are much less pleasant than the others, which all depends upon his willingness to work for his victims families.

 

What would make the victims' families feel that justice has been served? What would make them feel protected by the law?

 

Question: How often does it happen in South Carolina, that a white person gets the death penalty for a crime against somebody black? Who's the last white getting executed for a crime against a black in SC?

[dimreepr]

 

Can we can agree that Dylann should do something productive that earns money that can be given to the victims families? If he gets life in prison, then he should be motivated to do something of value that he knows is going to his victims families for the rest of his life. The motivation for such a detestable task for a racist, will be different levels of confinement, some of which are much less pleasant than the others, which all depends upon his willingness to work for his victims families.

 

Any psychologist that is worth his salt will be skillful in handling unusual people. All the psychologist needs to do is show empathy, something alien to Dylann, and I assure you the boy will become cooperative, since the alternative is solitary confinement.

 

 

 

Seeking revenge for imagined slights only highlights your shortcomings.