ajb Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I agree that the "kingdom of heaven" is a completely made up notion, but the problem is you cannot check that, it seems not even in principal. So we kind of have to just discount it, it is not a statement that that can be corroborated or fully contradicted. It is not the kind of 'mistake' that we can argue with in the sense that yahya515 means. Though I am not 100% sure what he is looking for. The fable in question does seem strange. I don't know if something is lost in the translation or if the social and political situation of the time of Jesus sets a more clear context. As it stands it does seem inconsistent, as you point out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I agree that the "kingdom of heaven" is a completely made up notion, but the problem is you cannot check that, it seems not even in principal. You don't need to. It's wrong anyway (unless the "proper" interpretation is so obscure as to make the terms meaningless.) From the point of view of someone who believes the whole "God" thing, it's still wrong, because you can't steal heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 From the point of view of someone who believes the whole "God" thing, it's still wrong, because you can't steal heaven. It makes me wonder if this is being misinterpreted somehow. Anyway I get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I have a worrying feeling that most parts of most scripture get misinterpreted somewhere, often deliberately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahya515 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 How is that a mistake? It is some strange metaphor and one that you have interpreted as you have. But again how is this factually wrong? It is inconsistent with other parts of the bible? although theft is not allowed in the bible , the verse states that theft is good, it is the same as for instance the bible saying: church addiction is like adultery addiction, this means adultery is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 (edited) although theft is not allowed in the bible , the verse states that theft is good, it is the same as for instance the bible saying: church addiction is like adultery addiction, this means adultery is good. So they should report the find to the Police, so they can steal it instead? I had already given a reason why it wasn't theft. The owner selling the field isn't the owner of the jewels either. Edited November 9, 2014 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahya515 Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 So they should report the find to the Police, so they can steal it instead? I had already given a reason why it wasn't theft. The owner selling the field isn't the owner of the jewels either. the treasure is his, whether he is aware of it or not, he owns the land so he owns everything in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 the treasure is his, whether he is aware of it or not, he owns the land so he owns everything in it. Well, that depends on what it is and what the laws are of the land. I have no idea what the law in that region at that time was. Anyway, this story is a way of trying to make some point. It looks like it is difficult to interpret today. I think we can agree on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Well, that depends on what it is and what the laws are of the land. I have no idea what the law in that region at that time was. Anyway, this story is a way of trying to make some point. It looks like it is difficult to interpret today. I think we can agree on that. It is the same for any entrepreneur if they can see a fortune to be made from a certain property they don't have to advise the current owner. No they just give the owner a good fair price and reap the reward for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahya515 Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 It is the same for any entrepreneur if they can see a fortune to be made from a certain property they don't have to advise the current owner. No they just give the owner a good fair price and reap the reward for themselves. I am not talking about law, I am talking about religion and its laws, what if a blind man holding a 1000 dollar note gave it to you as a 10 dollar, if you took it as a 10 dollar note no law would punish you but what about God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I am not talking about law, I am talking about religion and its laws, what if a blind man holding a 1000 dollar note gave it to you as a 10 dollar, if you took it as a 10 dollar note no law would punish you but what about God? That is a bit different isn't it. I know the first person to be punished will be the blind person for his money has disappeared and he can't explain it fully but he will say "Christ I think I handed over a 1000 dollars by mistake!" Only the conscience of the person who handled the money will know whether that was a sin or not. There was a time I'd take the money too, but not now, I make sure of that as I want a pure conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I am not talking about law, I am talking about religion and its laws, what if a blind man holding a 1000 dollar note gave it to you as a 10 dollar, if you took it as a 10 dollar note no law would punish you but what about God? Should one make a distinction between the laws as defined by religion and what would God do? The reason being we don't have any evidence of God and so it is impossible to at it would do, assuming that it existed. Laws of the land and religious laws are something we can discuss in a 'less hypothetical' way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Should one make a distinction between the laws as defined by religion and what would God do? The reason being we don't have any evidence of God and so it is impossible to at it would do, assuming that it existed. Laws of the land and religious laws are something we can discuss in a 'less hypothetical' way. Well what about the law as given by angels then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Well what about the law as given by angels then? I was under the impression they were God's messengers... anyway the same applies. We have no evidence of angels and so we cannot easily discuss what an angel would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I was under the impression they were God's messengers... anyway the same applies. We have no evidence of angels and so we cannot easily discuss what an angel would do. I'm not sure if they have set roles like that. There have been reports of angels throughout history, and even some fairly recent ones. OK they are still rare and not easily studied. I'll have to see what is on YouTube, see if anyone has captured an angel on video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 There was a time I'd take the money too, but not now, I make sure of that as I want a pure conscience. How can you have a pure conscience if you know that you were once capable of such a sin? I would continue to feel guilt over having entertained such thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I'm not sure if they have set roles like that. There have been reports of angels throughout history, and even some fairly recent ones. OK they are still rare and not easily studied. I'll have to see what is on YouTube, see if anyone has captured an angel on video? I would say that there is no creditable evidence that angles as depicted in the bible exist. So this, makes it very hypothetical. Just as the discussion of what God would do. The best one could possible do is try to interpret what the bible says in this regard. Anyway, I would like to try to have some distinction between laws 'set by God' whatever that means and religious laws set by man, as we know what the latter means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 How can you have a pure conscience if you know that you were once capable of such a sin? I would continue to feel guilt over having entertained such thoughts. Not just thoughts, but deeds. How does one get away from a past like that? I bent my knee and humbled myself in front of the Lord and asked for forgiveness for my many sins too sick to repeat. It worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) I would say that there is no creditable evidence that angles as depicted in the bible exist. Keep in mind that there were different kind of angles. Some of them were very perceptive; these were the acute angles. Others spoke cryptically; these were the obtuse angles. Only a few were infallible; these were the right angles. And some just reacted automatically to events; these were the reflex angles. Edited November 12, 2014 by Ophiolite 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I would say that there is no creditable evidence that angles as depicted in the bible exist. So this, makes it very hypothetical. Just as the discussion of what God would do. The best one could possible do is try to interpret what the bible says in this regard. Anyway, I would like to try to have some distinction between laws 'set by God' whatever that means and religious laws set by man, as we know what the latter means. YT has some interesting stories on angels. It is when they interact with people you know or even yourself then you don't feel so sure that it is all hypothetical. I used to tell stories but they would cause too much protest, so I'm reluctant to divulge too much here, I not sure of the tolerance given here on this forum. Keep in mind that there were different kind of angles. Some of them were very perceptive; these were the acute angles. Others spoke cryptically; these were the obtuse angles. Only a few were infallible; these were the right angles. And some just reacted automatically to events; these were the reflex angles. Cute angels are my favorite! You've got to look at the issue from both sides and from all the angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Keep in mind that there were different kind of angles. LOL, thanks you just can't stop me thinking maths! YT has some interesting stories on angels. It is when they interact with people you know or even yourself then you don't feel so sure that it is all hypothetical. I used to tell stories but they would cause too much protest, so I'm reluctant to divulge too much here, I not sure of the tolerance given here on this forum. Anecdotal evidence is not good enough. Anyway, we run the risk of hijacking this thread. If you want to discuss angels then start a new thread. You will have to think carefully where to place it. Maybe here in the religion section, or maybe the Lounge or Speculations. It will depend on your take on the subject. If you want to discus angles, then the mathematics section will be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahya515 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 That is a bit different isn't it.1000 dollars =land with treasure10 dollars = land without treasure blind man = land owner who does not know about his treasure. he gave you a 1000 dollar note = he sold his land with treasure. you took it as a 10 dollar note= the buyer took the land as pure land assuming it does not contain treasure. you did not tell the blind man that he gave you a 1000 dollar note= the buyer did not tell the seller that he had a land full of treasure. finally: the owner owns the land and the treasure= the blind man owns the 1000 dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 1000 dollars =land with treasure 10 dollars = land without treasure blind man = land owner who does not know about his treasure. he gave you a 1000 dollar note = he sold his land with treasure. you took it as a 10 dollar note= the buyer took the land as pure land assuming it does not contain treasure. you did not tell the blind man that he gave you a 1000 dollar note= the buyer did not tell the seller that he had a land full of treasure. finally: the owner owns the land and the treasure= the blind man owns the 1000 dollars. I can't imagine how I'm going to teach you anything. You are one of the most stubborn persons I've ever known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahya515 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 I can't imagine how I'm going to teach you anything. You are one of the most stubborn persons I've ever known. you do not teach , you discuss.I am not stubborn, I am pationt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 you do not teach , you discuss. I am not stubborn, I am pationt. You are OK. You are patient. I was just at a loss has how to make you see my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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