tar Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Mike, As long as there are people who will be that guy or gal that takes responsibility, and cares, there will always be somebody there. Regards, TAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Mike, As long as there are people who will be that guy or gal that takes responsibility, and cares, there will always be somebody there. Regards, TAR I did raise the question a year or two ago in Earth Science :- Who is looking out for the EARTH as a whole Started by Mike Smith Cosmos, Oct 24, 2012:- http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/70023-who-is-looking-out-for-the-earth-as-a-whole/ Mike Edited July 14, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) Mike, As long as there are people who will be that guy or gal that takes responsibility, and cares, there will always be somebody there. Regards, TAR Here they were, out on the streets, talking , discussing great thoughts. I know of no greater pleasure than to walk and sit and lay about discussing and thinking great thoughts and ideas. I am currently doing this on the streets of Exeter , and the county of Devon . Yesterday I was doing it with strangers as well as a Science Forum Original member. I have arranged to meet another member coming down from London in August . Join the great debates. This is how it used to be in Rome and Athens in the days of the great debates. Raphael's painting of Philosophers discussing in the streets of Rome and Athens . This Crystal of Aquamarine , was discussed yesterday in the shopping Prescints of Exeter, . debating the nature of reality and the way a crystal such as this , starts and rolls on in its structure, layer after layer. Many sat down , or gathered around, and made comments. One that caught my attention, was :- How a row of dominoes , stacked individually end on , roll on after the initial knock over, to become an ongoing fall, fall, fall, ............ Interesting roll on . Mike Edited July 16, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Mike, Interesting that before you can knock down a row of dominoes, you have to set them up. It is not so automatic or likely that the dominoes will continue to fall if they are not set up just so and in sufficient number to continue the fall for a particular length of time. Reminds me of one of my favorite sayings. You can roll the dice as many times as you want, and you will just get 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, 11 and 12. You will never get a queen of hearts. For that you need a deck of cards. Regards, TAR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Mike, Interesting that before you can knock down a row of dominoes, you have to set them up. It is not so automatic or likely that the dominoes will continue to fall if they are not set up just so and in sufficient number to continue the fall for a particular length of time. Reminds me of one of my favorite sayings. You can roll the dice as many times as you want, and you will just get 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, 11 and 12. You will never get a queen of hearts. For that you need a deck of cards. Regards, TAR Therein lays the 'clue' to a 'roll' . To make the system work , We input a small set amount of potential energy to each domino . Namely the difference of raising a flat fallen domino to an end on raised domino.( m x g x h joules ). h being the difference between the center of mass of a fallen domino say at 3 mm and a raised balanced domino at 25 mm, So the h contribution to the potential energy for use in knocking the next domino down will be h = 22mm . so locked up potential energy in each domino is the mass of domino in kilograms times x acceleration due to gravity of 9.81 meters/second/second x 0.022 meters. All you now need is the initial 'initiative ' energy to knock over the first domino . from then on , there will be a conversion from potential energy to kinetic energy as each domino falls forward ( 1/2 x m x v squared joules ). Conclusion : From 'Energy makes things happen' by definition . There must be sufficient inbuilt latent potential energy in a system for it to go on a 'roll ' by itself after being given the initial input initiative . Like the domino's , otherwise it will require an ongoing input of energy to keep the system 'rolling' which is not a roll . mike So if I remember correctly ( which is dubious ) If you mix up and leave to stand a mixture of Water and sodium Hydro Thio... forgotten . To a certain concentration. It will sit there looking like water. If you give the jar a knock .... crystals form continuously on a 'roll' perhaps something like that happens here but slowly ( but i am not a chemist ):- Edited July 17, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Mike, A crystal, and the roll it gets on is certainly an important initiative, or at least happening, that is most likely an important consideration in abiogenisis, in that it brings form and structure to a mixture, that is otherwise, "lifeless"/ But back to the "higher life form", that the thread question is referring to. What would be the "initiative" that would have brought the higher life form about? Would it not necessarily be, something like the initiatives that brought about single cell organisms, and life on Earth? No magic is evident or required to have established life on Earth. No magic is likely to have been available for the higher life form to have developed. By rule, the higher lifeform would have had to evolve from chemicals and crystal formation, and found a way to grab form and structure, from a universe that otherwise is headed toward entropy, same as life on Earth did. The higher lifeform would have just had more time to evolve, or had some special advantage to institute a form and structure that fit their environment better than we have managed so far. This is a possible thing, but not a likely thing, to have developed in the manner you are aluding to. The higher life form, would have to have been subject to reality same as us. Can not have developed "outside" of reality. Being so, they would have concerns, same as every lifeform on Earth, surrounding their own sustanance and survival. Altruism on their part, would have no real reason to extend to Mike Smith Cosmos, as they would have their own family and species and planet and solar system to be concerned with. Probably their own balance of power, choices between good and evil, and politics as we have. So, even if a race or species, or type of life, had the time and conditions to evolve beyond where the human species has evolved, it is unlikely that they have done it completely separately from us, and at the same time, done it in a manner that would have them be concerned with our well being. Regards, TAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydasaint Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I don't know. If there is a superior intellect. What makes us think that they are any less liable than us to enter into internecine warfare and conflict. If intellect and emotion go hand in hand with the development of a larger brain and intellect, then they would have nothing to say to us - they have their own problems. If there was ever a time to guide humanity, WW1, WW2 and every war since then would be a good time to intervene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 jimmydasaint, Was trying to figure out the mideast issues at work a few weeks ago, with a coworker. Another coworker mentioned that two guys in New Jersey are not likely to fix it. I suggested that perhaps things like the MidEast are affected by just the fact that others are watching and others care. It is said that evil only exists when good men do nothing. In regards, to this thread, about a higher intelligence watching, or observing us, I am thinking that we sort of have that, in the body of each other, and a sort of collective consciousness that keeps an eye on things. Putin in affected by the world's disapproval of his actions. He is strong, he has armies at his command, but he is not operating in a vacuum. You and I are watching. A higher intelligence, the collective consciousness of humanity is watching. It steps in whenever things get out of hand. Sure we have wars, but they usually are to stop someone from behaving improperly on some level or another. Personally, I am very concerned about the mutulation of the clitoris that Isis is promoting as part of the Caliphate plan. So sexist, so stupid, so cruel and demeaning. So NOT the way to go. Makes me want to protect those women from that abuse. Makes me want to fight a war on their behalf. Perhaps the "observer" is us. And we step in when stepping in, is the thing to do. Regards, TAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) ................................. Perhaps the "observer" is us. And we step in when stepping in, is the thing to do. Regards, TAR We as conscious beings seem to be influencing, - reality - , by our observations. Whether there are conscious beings - 'as it were - , above us', in intellect capacity,is a very interesting and important issue ! The answer to this issue ,'Could ' influence our future ! None, above us, well we carry on as we are, Some , above us , well that could prove to be interesting ! mike Edited September 1, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) Mike, Interesting indeed. But I keep coming back to the same conclusion in terms of the entertaining of such a possibility and the probabilities of such a thing coming about, I mean the possibility of such a thing having already have occurred. There is a large amount of evidence, that the evolution of everything on Earth, actually happened on Earth. There is not any aspect of life or even intelligence for that matter, that would have required outside influences to have occurred. The Earth and the Sun are quite capable, on our own, to have developed the forms and creatures, biosphere and weather patterns, ants and plants, humans and cities, tools and procedures, legends and memories, that we have developed. None other need to be involved. We have the whole story at our fingertips. To entertain the "higher" form idea, you would have to extend the home planet idea to the home galaxy idea, in which case one can entertain the idea of the development of other lifeforms, and even other civilizations (look at an Ant colony, or whales repeating grand patterns of visitation and ritual). If life was possible here, then it might also be possible elsewhere. But how possible is a "higher" form of life? Higher than us, certainly is possible, but on what scale, judging what abilities? Strength, speed, size, problem solving, compassion, flight, permanance, senses, memory, number of appendages, range of electromagnetic spectrum awareness, or what? A higher life form would not have to be going by our standands. A higher life form would not have to know about us. And a higher life form would not have to care about us. Now if the development of space travel, happened elsewhere than Earth, first and this planet was "seeded" consciously by visitors...this is possible, but then these folk would be our wardens and lab attendendants, and they would appear to us as Gods if they have such powers as to read our minds, and change our weather and such...but then we would be more of a lab experiment, than their children. Not equals in anyway, and slaves or captives, as we have in Zoos. Now if we are talking benevolent God type consciousness, then we are talking about God, in the biblical sense. This concept is an overarching one, one that is not bound by sense and reason, physical constrains, and actuality, but one that is formulated as an overarching concept, that trumps everything, that includes everything, and is conscious of everything. This is not a higher life form, this is God. So, what is left for the observers to be? They can not have gotten so much further than life on Earth, as to be conscious of it, and present amoung us, and be "other than" us, all at the same time. One possible explanation, discounts portions of others, and in no case, did whatever happened elsewhere have more than 13.8 billion years to happen. Whatever story you figure, has to fit within that time frame, and operate within the constraints of space and time, and physical laws. If what you are imagining fits the facts then it is possible. If what you are imagining can not actually be true, then it is not possible. Regards, TAR Edited September 1, 2014 by tar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) Mike,............ ...... If what you are imagining fits the facts then it is possible. If what you are imagining can not actually be true, then it is not possible. Regards, TAR Tar Very interesting and thought out reasoning. The BIG QUESTION is , Which is it ? Mike ..... I need to think this through .. ..................Huuum ! Edited September 2, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) It would appear ,that the Notion of Observation is becoming a HOT topic . This in view of the connection of OBSERVATION in relation to Reality Link :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics) Simple double slit experiment link :- Longer Video Link :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkkIvp71P1c Roger Penrose on Reality link :- Roger Penrose on Conciousness :- Mike Edited October 14, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) It would appear then , if observation is endemic or part of the universe's mechanisms , there is a high probability that :- WE ARE BEING OBSERVED. As that appears to be the way the universe becomes REAL ( as in Reality ) If that is the case , it might behoove us to attempt contact . , ! ( YES. /. NO , HOW ..? ) If the initiative needs to come from us ? We could ask the question ..:- " Is there anybody there ? " somehow ! Mike Edited October 26, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) It would appear then , if observation is endemic or part of the universe's mechanisms , there is a high probability that :- WE ARE BEING OBSERVED. As that appears to be the way the universe becomes REAL ( as in Reality ) If that is the case , it might behoove us to attempt contact . , ! ( YES. /. NO , HOW ..? ) If the initiative needs to come from us ? We could ask the question ..:- " Is there anybody there ? " somehow ! Mike Has Anybody asked the Question? What was your result ? I have ? Mike PS. Clue . You will need to utilise Serendipity ! Edited October 29, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Has Anybody asked the Question? What was your result ? I have ? PS. Clue . You will need to utilise Serendipity ! Well ... Not much feedback, so far. ! Maybe you all made an enquiry,.....And you have all been abducted away to some distant Galaxy far away. And I am left here , as the only one remaining ..., All alone ! ....Hmmm...... Help. ! Mike Edited November 2, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriana Reis Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 yep i believe we are being observed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) yep i believe we are being observed Well ! That is an interesting reply. Do you have any ideas of the source of this observation ? Earthly originated Observation. ... Super human intelligent life,lives, ... Other intelligent life on a level with ourselves , but somewhere else. or something else that I have not categorized ? mike Edited November 4, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) There appears to be an observational attribute , permeating the entire Universe, that contributes to its functioning. There have been many reports from within science and external to science that make reference to the influence of observation on functioning. Mike Edited November 17, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 Several questions arise with this idea of observation? * is the observer an inert , mechanical device or something which is conscious and aware . * does this make a difference to the effect. * is the observation passive ( just information gathering ) or influential in that the observation stimulates some other operation. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Several questions arise with this idea of observation? * is the observer an inert , mechanical device or something which is conscious and aware . * does this make a difference to the effect. * is the observation passive ( just information gathering ) or influential in that the observation stimulates some other operation. Mike Are you talking about quantum theory here (having moved on from aliens or whatever it was at the start)? If so, it has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. Pretty much any interaction counts as an "observation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Are you talking about quantum theory here (having moved on from aliens or whatever it was at the start)? If so, it has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. Pretty much any interaction counts as an "observation". Yes, Well any theory really. Its just that quantum sized objects possibly have more influence as the size is near to the probability wavelength. Where, on the larger scale, it still applies , does it not, to world sized , its just surely the probability wave tends to make its probable location nearly imperceptible, to where you really think it is. So , Yes , Observation seems to have risen its head at quantum atomic levels with things like The Double Slit experiment, and Shroenigers cat Phenomenon, Quantum tunneling and the like. but that does not exclude things happening elsewhere, like Roger Penrose's Microtubules, or at much larger scales. There does seem to be more and more research being done on the effect of conscious influence on our selves and our environment . Also in other, as yet , undiscovered regions of endeavor . Also as regards Aliens. Well if there is,/ was life somewhere else in the Cosmos . surely We would be the aliens to them. or if we were to feel more friendly about other intelligence existing in other regions of the Cosmos we might think of them as colleagues, with an interest in some form of communication , in what ever form that might take. We do , as a world seem to be showing some form of interest in ' other life ' elsewhere in the universe. ( searching for evidence ) Surely it could be:- A) lower life forms, B) Equal life forms, C) Superior life forms. It might behoove us at this stage, HOW we might communicate with any of these three now rather than later. As a race, we do not have a terribly good historic record of dealing with other life forms either superior, inferior or equal The One that interests me the most is superior or maybe a little advanced than us.The reason being , both superior or slightly more advanced than us , would have already 'sussed out' how to communicate with other life forms. And in fact may, as we speak, be currently trying to communicate. But maybe we are NOT listening. Or at least not listening in the right way. Also on this question of Pretty much any interaction counts as an "observation". I must say I have tried to think about this , a bit . A) is it a bit of confusing misnomer. if it is just an interaction. B) Rather exciting, if interactions are having the influence that we ascribe to Observation, Then " the cosmos is being made " by all these interactions going on remotely , influencing ,all over the place , in the way we describe the "effect of Observation " . Whether this is pure interaction and/or actual conscious observation . mike Edited November 18, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 A) is it a bit of confusing misnomer. if it is just an interaction. Yes. It comes about because in quantum theory an "observable" has a particular meaning, very different from the everyday sense. Unfortunately, this sort of confusion is common with specialised terminology in many fields of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Yes. It comes about because in quantum theory an "observable" has a particular meaning, very different from the everyday sense. Unfortunately, this sort of confusion is common with specialised terminology in many fields of life. So where is all " the spooky action at a distance " that has been vocalized ?. And " Cats in Boxes " Keeling over , or not keeling over , when lids are peeped through ! And all the other Richard Feynman " If you understand it you have it Wrong " ? Mike Edited November 18, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 So where is all " the spooky action at a distance " that has been vocalized ?. What do you mean, "where is it"? It is tested and demonstrated in labs. (And note that that description was invented by Einstein because he didn't like the results of the theory. A little bit crackpotty of him, really.) And " Cats in Boxes " Keeling over , or not keeling over , when lids are peeped through ! Another attempt to show how unintuitive the results of the theory are. Not to be taken to seriously - there never was (and never will be) such a cat. And all the other Richard Feynman " If you understand it you have it Wrong " ? I don't think he ever said that. It is probably a mixing up of Bhor's comment, "anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) What do you mean, "where is it"? I..........t". What about the possibility of contact with other possible life in the universe, who may be a little further forward in utilizing quantum phenomenon, that we have not yet harnessed or " listened to for any contact " . Say taking a probability wave function of an electron and modulating the wave say 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 oscillations out from the central peak . ( should get a few miles out . ) Then as the electron very very occasionally makes an appearance at Alfa Centauri we may get a contact provided they reply on the same method Mike Edited November 18, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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