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Pozessed
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Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?
(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)

At least I'm adamant enough with these thoughts to think about them when Christmas is nowhere near. Any opinions are appreciated.

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Well in my opinion, when it comes to things like 'santa claus' and the easter bunny and these kinda things, since they're such small lies, I guess its justifiable telling them to a kid, especially since they'll learn it isn't true when they get older. If, however, it was one of these things where there isn't evidence for it (such as the lack of evidence for the existence of santa claus) and you teach it to a kid as undeniable, unquestionable truth and never teach them to be skeptical about these kinda things, then there's a much more obvious problem there.

 

In short I think things like telling your kid to be good around christmas so that santa will give them presents is a little questionable but ultimately harmless.

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Well in my opinion, when it comes to things like 'santa claus' and the easter bunny and these kinda things, since they're such small lies, I guess its justifiable telling them to a kid, especially since they'll learn it isn't true when they get older. If, however, it was one of these things where there isn't evidence for it (such as the lack of evidence for the existence of santa claus) and you teach it to a kid as undeniable, unquestionable truth and never teach them to be skeptical about these kinda things, then there's a much more obvious problem there.

 

In short I think things like telling your kid to be good around christmas so that santa will give them presents is a little questionable but ultimately harmless.

Do you think people would possibly grow up to be less decitful if they themselves weren't deceived by the people they respected and admired when they were a child?

Edited by Pozessed
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Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)

 

At least I'm adamant enough with these thoughts to think about them when Christmas is nowhere near. Any opinions are appreciated.

 

What religion is being promoted with a day set aside for Santa Claus?

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What religion is being promoted with a day set aside for Santa Claus?

Why Christmas of course. Many people spread false faith in this supernatural being with transcendent powers known as Santa Claus. Even if Santa has no religious context to us adults, he sure fits into the definition of religion when it comes to children.

Edited by Pozessed
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Why Christmas of course. Many people spread false faith in this supernatural being with transcendent powers known as Santa Claus. Even if Santa has no religious context to us adults, he sure fits into the definition of religion when it comes to children.

 

Christmas is a religion?

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Many people spread false faith in this supernatural being with transcendent powers known as Santa Claus.

Until Santaism causes as much grief and destruction as the major religions, our energy is better spent on fighting those than rob children of a reason to get gifts.
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Christmas is a religion?

Is there any other holiday that promotes the existence of Santa Claus? Even though atheism is secular it comes very close to being a religion, Christmas is a type of religion based on the literal definition. Christmas is more agreeably practiced by the masses (in America) than any form of Christianity. Just because we don't want to label it as a religion doesn't mean it shouldn't be. Of course these are all speculations and opinions.

Until Santaism causes as much grief and destruction as the major religions, our energy is better spent on fighting those than rob children of a reason to get gifts.

 

Please do tell how lying and deceiving a child to acquire personal gain will teach them to follow an honest moral compass?

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Please do tell how lying and deceiving a child to acquire personal gain will teach them to follow an honest moral compass?

Strawman. Also, completely missing the point. Again; wouldn't you be better off fighting the unjustices of true religion (mutilated children, child marriages, withholding medication due to religious reasons) rather than attacking a holiday in which children are getting gifts and people are more charitable than the rest of the year, regardless of motivation? It just seems like a giant waste of time and energy.
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Is there any other holiday that promotes the existence of Santa Claus? Even though atheism is secular it comes very close to being a religion, Christmas is a type of religion based on the literal definition. Christmas is more agreeably practiced by the masses (in America) than any form of Christianity. Just because we don't want to label it as a religion doesn't mean it shouldn't be. Of course these are all speculations and opinions.

 

No, but then there isn't another day besides Feb 2 that promotes rodents predicting the weather, or another besides Jan 1 that celebrates the first day of the year. Is Groundhog Day-ism or New Year-ism a religion, just because they're on the calendar (and one of them is a federal holiday)?

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Do you think people would possibly grow up to be less decitful if they themselves weren't deceived by the people they respected and admired when they were a child?

 

Well I'm not convinced you can really make this generalization to everybody, most people in britain for example were told the 'santa story' and I know lots who aren't really deceitful... I'd like to think I'm an example of somebody who was told this as a kid and grew to not be deceitful.

 

Also for the average parent they don't see it as deception because they know eventually the child will know the truth, either from hearing it frmo his friends or the parents themselves, and until then it's just some nice wishful thinking for the kid.

 

I'm not sure I could really look my future kid in the eye and tell him/her a story like that of christmas, knowing it's just made up :S

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I think the Santa Claus thing is very useful - it teaches kids that the naked unadultered truth might be a great thing in theory but that society relies on fortunate fictions, happy half-truths, and little white lies.


It also provides a very powerful message a few years later when the teenager realises that God and Santa Claus are very very similar - and if one was a lie told by parents why cannot the other be a lie told by society.

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Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

 

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?

(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)

 

At least I'm adamant enough with these thoughts to think about them when Christmas is nowhere near. Any opinions are appreciated.

 

It doesn't establish a religion, but yeah it is unfair to those who have different beliefs. Some places allow those with different religions to swap that day for their day, but it really isn't very practical, since most people take it off.

 

Making up stories for children, well I guess it depends. If the child is really curious and questioning, it can lead to many, many lies. For many it really is just conforming to society. That is an important lesson when really young. Besides, you don't want to be Mr. Transparent

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZlZZGi_YZk

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I see Christmas, as it is now, as more about culture than religion. e.g. I'm an Atheist, but my Family and I still "celebrate" christmas; we're happy to have the time off work, we buys presents for each other, we have a big meal. It's just a long-standing tradition, where I am, to celebrate christmas. That different people attach different levels of speciifc religious meaning to it, is to me a different issue.

 

 

Do pacifists complain about (local version of day acknowledging wars or veterans)?

 

Do anarchists complain about presidents day?

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Strawman. Also, completely missing the point. Again; wouldn't you be better off fighting the unjustices of true religion (mutilated children, child marriages, withholding medication due to religious reasons) rather than attacking a holiday in which children are getting gifts and people are more charitable than the rest of the year, regardless of motivation? It just seems like a giant waste of time and energy.

I could understand calling my statement a strawman if our corporate CEOs and our government officials here in America weren't corrupt bigets. However that is not the case. My point, deceit begets deceit. Therefore, a great many of Americas problems very well may lie in the deceit of the Santa Claus story that has been told generation after generation.

As far as religion goes, those institutions are destroying themselves as people look for answers to faith in their own way instead of listening to only the people who preach in their religious sector. As soon as a person looks up an alternative to God to fill in the gap of their misunderstanding, they will probably find a plausible answer that very well may shake their faith and thus question their religion. I'd rather let religions destroy themselves in that manner instead of arguing with people about their faith.

 

No, but then there isn't another day besides Feb 2 that promotes rodents predicting the weather, or another besides Jan 1 that celebrates the first day of the year. Is Groundhog Day-ism or New Year-ism a religion, just because they're on the calendar (and one of them is a federal holiday)?

Honestly there is a huge difference between the holidays you listed and Christmas. None of them have the word Christ in their name, none of them originated from a religious sect, none of them speak of people with supernatural abilaties, etc.The only thing that these holidays have in commomn with Christmas is that they are national holidays and are celebrated traditionally.

 

Well I'm not convinced you can really make this generalization to everybody, most people in britain for example were told the 'santa story' and I know lots who aren't really deceitful... I'd like to think I'm an example of somebody who was told this as a kid and grew to not be deceitful.

 

Also for the average parent they don't see it as deception because they know eventually the child will know the truth, either from hearing it frmo his friends or the parents themselves, and until then it's just some nice wishful thinking for the kid.

 

I'm not sure I could really look my future kid in the eye and tell him/her a story like that of christmas, knowing it's just made up :S

I don't think this conclusion relates to everyone, but I think it can be related to a large majority of the American population at least.

I think the Santa Claus thing is very useful - it teaches kids that the naked unadultered truth might be a great thing in theory but that society relies on fortunate fictions, happy half-truths, and little white lies.

It also provides a very powerful message a few years later when the teenager realises that God and Santa Claus are very very similar - and if one was a lie told by parents why cannot the other be a lie told by society.

You don't think kids and teenagers are going to learn this without the perversion from their parents?

 

It doesn't establish a religion, but yeah it is unfair to those who have different beliefs. Some places allow those with different religions to swap that day for their day, but it really isn't very practical, since most people take it off.

 

Making up stories for children, well I guess it depends. If the child is really curious and questioning, it can lead to many, many lies. For many it really is just conforming to society. That is an important lesson when really young. Besides, you don't want to be Mr. Transparent

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZlZZGi_YZk

What is so wrong about being honest? The truth hurts, build a bridge and get over it.

I see Christmas, as it is now, as more about culture than religion. e.g. I'm an Atheist, but my Family and I still "celebrate" christmas; we're happy to have the time off work, we buys presents for each other, we have a big meal. It's just a long-standing tradition, where I am, to celebrate christmas. That different people attach different levels of speciifc religious meaning to it, is to me a different issue.

Do pacifists complain about (local version of day acknowledging wars or veterans)?

Do anarchists complain about presidents day?

I agree with your first paragraph, I mean traditions are good. Yet, the fact still remains that this holiday began based on a religious sect and our government allowed itself to promote this religion. That was unconstitutional. If you notice I haven't provided any idea on how to resolve the issue because I have none, it was only a question.

 

Your other points have no relation because they aren't based on religion.

Sorry I took so long to respond. Was sick for a few days. Thank you all for your opinions and responses though. I appreciate the input.

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Honestly there is a huge difference between the holidays you listed and Christmas. None of them have the word Christ in their name, none of them originated from a religious sect, none of them speak of people with supernatural abilaties, etc.The only thing that these holidays have in commomn with Christmas is that they are national holidays and are celebrated traditionally.

 

I'm sorry, I though we were talking about Santa. I don't see how anyone can argue this is about Christ/Christianity when Santa has been mentioned, and the traditions involve decorating trees, etc.

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I'm sorry, I though we were talking about Santa. I don't see how anyone can argue this is about Christ/Christianity when Santa has been mentioned, and the traditions involve decorating trees, etc.

Yea, I've kinda confused myself on the whole point I was getting at as well. I knew what I was getting at before I got sick but my mind has been so clouded due to medicine, drowsiness, and congestion I kind of forgot my point. I do apologize if I wasted your time though. It also doesn't help that you led me to new thoughts that I haven't yet thoroughly thought out. Not that I'm blaming you for my lack of intellect, just trying to give you a little clarification.

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I could understand calling my statement a strawman if our corporate CEOs and our government officials here in America weren't corrupt bigets. However that is not the case. My point, deceit begets deceit. Therefore, a great many of Americas problems very well may lie in the deceit of the Santa Claus story that has been told generation after generation.

The Santa mythos exists outside the US. Also, stating that all CEOs and everyone in your government are "corrupt bigets" (sic) is making you sound more like a conspiracy theorist than a rationalist.

 

As far as religion goes, those institutions are destroying themselves as people look for answers to faith in their own way instead of listening to only the people who preach in their religious sector. As soon as a person looks up an alternative to God to fill in the gap of their misunderstanding, they will probably find a plausible answer that very well may shake their faith and thus question their religion. I'd rather let religions destroy themselves in that manner instead of arguing with people about their faith.

Again, Christmas is not a religion. And while I don't think that's what you're getting at, I just want to clarify the unlikeliness of people substituting God for Santa.
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I could understand calling my statement a strawman if our corporate CEOs and our government officials here in America weren't corrupt bigets. However that is not the case. My point, deceit begets deceit. Therefore, a great many of Americas problems very well may lie in the deceit of the Santa Claus story that has been told generation after generation.

The Santa mythos exists outside the US. Also, stating that all CEOs and everyone in your government are "corrupt bigets" (sic) is making you sound more like a conspiracy theorist than a rationalist.

 

Again, Christmas is not a religion. And while I don't think that's what you're getting at, I just want to clarify the unlikeliness of people substituting God for Santa.

I shouldn't have generalized all CEOs and politicians the way that I had, but that still doesn't negate my point, does it? The fact that corruption has hold in many facets of our business and political methods would require a great many people to be involved or turn a blind eye to the misdoing, which neither promote trustworthy behavior in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong for drawing that conclussion which seems obvious to me.

 

Let me ask you this, with so many corrupt characteristics that life has the potential for, why add to the mayhem with stories like Santa if we want to resolve the corruption that exists? It seems like adding fuel to the fire to me.

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Let me ask you this, with so many corrupt characteristics that life has the potential for, why add to the mayhem with stories like Santa if we want to resolve the corruption that exists? It seems like adding fuel to the fire to me.

I think there are degrees to it. There are stories you tell kids to make them believe as you do, or think the way you do. Like religion or prejudices. Then there are (what you believe to be) truths, which you tell kids to tell them about the world, and which don't conflict with the first kind. Like how the Earth orbits the Sun. Then there are stories like the one about Santa. It's not true, but it has the benefits of, for example, fostering the children's imagination and making them behave nicely. Like imatfaal touched on in post #12, it can probably teach them to think critically. It's also not a story the adult take very seriously, and they drop it as the kid ages. It's simply on another level than for example religion, and I think the child would (perhaps subconsciously) notice the difference in the weight we put on it.

 

Now, one could probably argue that you shouldn't tell a kid to be good for goodness sake, and that might very well be correct. On the other hand, THAT runs the risk of complicating things for the kid. I'm no child psychologist by any stretch of the imagination, but I can imagine it's better to teach the child to be good first, THEN explaining the deeper meaning and reasoning on why they should be good. Yes, if they can reason and reach the conclusion to be nice based on objective arguments, that would be great. But they're kids, and I seriously doubt their capacity to reach such conclusions. Sometimes, you simply have to tell them "that's the way it is, and that's that".

 

As you, probably correctly, points out, there are a lot of "corrupt characteristics" in life, and it would be better if there weren't. But it doesn't matter if you're talking about politics, religion or education, I strongly believe removing Santa is the wrong end to start, and energy would be better spent elsewhere.

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I raised two sons, it was never a matter of the truth or a lie, it was always seeing who could convince someone of the truth of something that might or might not be true. This was always fun and it taught my boys to question everything, accept nothing at face value.

 

After they were old enough they would try and get me or their mom. I think it taught them to be skeptical it certainly was a lot of fun trying to see how credulous we were.

 

They figured out Santa early on as well as the tooth fairy and other imaginary things, They have grown up to be skeptics and I am proud of them.

 

They still get me on rare occasions but I still get them too...

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