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alkis3

what is your attitude toward "pussy riot"?

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There is plenty of legal protection and policing in the west, just we like to do our best to respect all sides of the

you cannot do everything possible to please everyone

American freedom increases the problems of the people

if a person has mental problems,and he thinks he walk naked it's okay,or that gays think that their way of life is right

all of these examples,it deviations from a healthy person,and you instead of helping these people,promote their health problems

 

this is a terrible freedom,which can destroy many lives

 

if the fact that I have listed you think norm,then where do you get the criterion of the norm?

if you believe in God,look for these issues does the Bible say

Edited by alkis3

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you cannot do everything possible to please everyone

Absolutely right.

 

So we don't really try. Roughly we have majority rules, but not at the expense of the individual. This is why we strive to have a tolerant society by allowing people we disagree with and maybe even people we hate to exist in our society. Again, the is all tempered with minimizing the potential harm to others including wider society.

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or that gays think that their way of life is right

How, exactly, is oppressing people for a fundamental aspect of their personal identity 'freedom of the spirit'?

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Again, the is all tempered with minimizing the potential harm to others including wider society.

you do less damage now,but increase the harm in the future

this encouragement problems and do not address the causes of the problems

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...or that gays think that their way of life is right...

I doubt any gays think that their life style is right, rather they think it is right for them.

 

Same as I know the gay life style is not for me, in that sense it is "wrong", but I don't force this on others who think differently.

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How, exactly, is oppressing people for a fundamental aspect of their personal identity 'freedom of the spirit'?

and you think that this is the norm?

with such normaly you'll just ruin mankind..

I think our dispute around in a circle,we just have different views on things..senseless dispute

 

Same as I know the gay life style is not for me, in that sense it is "wrong", but I don't force this on others who think differently.

you do not understand that it is not the views,and not a lifestyle.

it is difficult problems in need of assistance.

you're missing the point concepts thoughts and problems

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you do not understand that it is not the views,and not a lifestyle.

it is difficult problems in need of assistance.

you're missing the point concepts thoughts and problems

So everyone who does not conform to the "Russian norms" is mentally ill? Who defines these norms?

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and you think that this is the norm?

with such normaly you'll just ruin mankind..

 

This is an educational problem now. You need to study a bit more about how homosexuality really affects a species, because this is NOT how it works biologically.

 

You are basing your stance on the fear of the worst of what might possibly happen. You assume that if you allow protests against state supported religion, people will end up running around naked violating each other and making everyone gay so the species dies off. This is a fallacy called the Slippery Slope, and is a weak foundation on which to build an argument about a whole country. You assume everything goes from how it is now to total disaster with nothing in between. That's rarely how things really work.

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with such normaly you'll just ruin mankind..

How? How does failing to oppress people for who they are ruin mankind? Oppressing people for a fundamental aspect of who they are is the exact opposite of the freedom of spirit you mentioned before. Why do you get freedom of spirit, but the people who aren't like you don't?

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This is an educational problem now. You need to study a bit more about how homosexuality really affects a species, because this is NOT how it works biologically.

And that does not mean you have to like it, support it or try it, just that you should be tolerant that people can be homosexual or whatever else we are talking about.

Edited by ajb

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Почему вы получаете свободу духа, но люди, которые не такие, как вы-нет?

Not such ?You think all people are biologically different?

if you talk about the norm,then let's be based on biology

in biology homosexuality is normal for people?

if not,you want to argue with nature?

Edited by alkis3

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not exactly,I think that many may not be aware of some facts

the opinion is based on facts

if over the issue, one has no facts,there is no opinion on this issue

on this for the correct understanding,we need all the facts

 

What tells you putin is not fact. It's what he wanted to say to you, and just that. Pretty much crap.

Totalitarian (or government dependent) television should be treated exactly reverse to what is said.

 

In any western country behaving like Pussy Riots would remain unnoticed.

For their happening in church they would at worst get mulct.

 

Priest decrying their action and demanding penalty as they received would be very pad priest.

And for sure not behaving like Jesus ordered him forgiving enemies.

Edited by Sensei

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in biology homosexuality is normal for people?

We know from various statistics that it is a small minority of people that identify themselves as homosexual. In the UK it is something like 1%. But then this does not capture the full spectrum at all. I doubt it is is very clear when we include bisexual and others that just experiment and so on.

 

So I am not sure at all what normal is.

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you do not understand that it is not the views,and not a lifestyle.

it is difficult problems in need of assistance.

you're missing the point concepts thoughts and problems

 

People don't have a choice when it comes to what gender(s) attract them. Did YOU have a choice or did you simply know that you were attracted to women (or men if you are a woman)? Could you change now, convince yourself that you're attracted to the same sex? Not just for a night, but forever? This should show that everybody is a little different, which isn't the same as being wrong or abnormal.

 

But that's science, and what you're really asking about is politics. I think all viewpoints need to be represented in a democracy, and so all those viewpoints need the freedom to be expressed. Each one helps shape your society. It may seem like it would be best if everyone thought like you, but trust me, you won't grow to your potential if you adopt a single political outlook.

 

Bad things don't get better unless you have people protesting about how bad they are.

 

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of religion, but I also think you turned a protest about the division of church and state into an affront to your religious beliefs. Pussy Riot may not respect your particular beliefs, but I don't think they were trying to disrespect them. I think they just wanted to warn people about mixing two powerful entities that history shows should be kept separate.

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!

Moderator Note

Please everyone stick to the topic. If you wish to discuss homosexuality, please refer to one of the many existing threads on the topic or start a new one.

 

akis3, language barrier or no, you need to abide by our forum rules and start engaging in proper discussion. This includes rules 1c., which prohibits the use of slurs or prejudice remarks against a group or groups of people (for example, homosexuals) as well as rule 8., which relates to soap-boxing (I warned you about this earlier). Please start responding to the actual points that people are making and try to clarify yourself a little better if possible, or this thread will be closed.

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And that does not mean you have to like it, support it or try it, just that you should be tolerant that people can be homosexual or whatever else we are talking about.

 

Exactly. Evolution is dealing out cards from an unimaginably large deck. Homosexuality is present in many different, successful species, which show no signs of dying off because of it.

 

Taking a moral stance against it (and similar controversial subjects, like using a church to protest politically) is futile and unproductive, imo. In the US, we've wasted a lot of resources trying to legislate morality. It doesn't work, and seems to actually work against most of our strongest abilities as a species; our communication, our cooperative task management and our high intelligence. Throwing someone in jail because they love their country enough to want the best for it is not an intelligent action. And neither is pretending they're doing it because they don't love Jesus.

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they desecration place that is sacred to millions of people

 

I don't know,maybe we have different cultures,but for many people in Russia ,that act of which they had done a very bad

 

Apparently Russians are not Christians anymore..

As Christianity is based on forgiving enemies.

 

Pussy Riots are not enemies of believers.

They are rather enemies of putin.

As any good russian should be enemy to any russian's dictator.

 

putin disobeyed constitution and is not president in the meaning of any democracy country.

You cannot be 3 times president in any democracy country. Constitution disallows this.

And voice of people, no matter if true or fake, is not excuse to scoop up power in the country.

 

Dictators end up the same regardless of country - they are killed by people or killed by rivals to power.

putin won't die for natural cause rather for sure.

 

I'll remind you what happened to Roman empire emperors.

Caesar - killed by senators.

Octavian - killed by his wife.

Tiberius - killed by his grand nephew with help of commander of security guards.

Caligula - killed by commander of security guards.

Claudius - killed by his wife.

Neron - committed suicide to not being captured alive by his enemies (all romans).

Galba - killed

Otho - suicide

Vitellius - killed

Vespasian - the FIRST emperor that was not killed and died for natural cause!

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well,we just have different views on freedom.

you think that freedom is everything except the physical harm

I think that freedom is when no harm at all,nor any manifestation

when your freedom normal people must endure freaks,
in my freedom it is when freaks are not showing their deviations children.
and not spoil children, weakened brains,replacing the taste and tastelessness norm replace brad
thus not imposing children stupid thoughts
but now, our subject pussy riot
sorry that took the conversation in another direction
finish useless dispute
we will continue to speak out about pussy riot please

 

Pussy Riots are not enemies of believers.
They are rather enemies of putin.

then why did they come into the Church and not in the Kremlin

their logic is not understandable

Edited by alkis3

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then why did they come into the Church and not in the Kremlin

their logic is not understandable

 

They were singing song "Bogurodzico *) save us from putin"... !

 

*) which translates to "Mother of God", or "Mary (mother of Jesus)"...

 

Things will start making sense, when you will stop believing in putin crap.

 

So actually they were praying in the most appropriate place for it.

Edited by Sensei

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when your freedom normal people must endure freaks,

in my freedom it is when freaks are not showing their deviations children.

That is not freedom, that is intolerance. Your freedom does not extend to robbing other people of their freedom. Not being like you does not make anyone a 'freak'. Diversity is good.

 

If you separate out an entire class of people and deem them as subhuman and subjugate and oppress them, there is no freedom. There isn't freedom unless there is freedom for all. Remember the veil of ignorance I mentioned earlier. What if YOU were the 'freak'. Would you still think you were free?

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you talk a little strange

you talk about pussy riot rights,but they forget that pussy riot initiators of their actions

where is your logic rights insulted citizens?you say 3 girls wanted to sing,but a million people did not want them to do in the Church

let them sing at home anything,or near the entrance to the store

and even if you do not see the harm to milions people ,it does not mean that no harm


 

If you separate out an entire class of people and deem them as subhuman and subjugate and oppress them, there is no freedom. There isn't freedom unless there is freedom for all.

freaks in Russia does not inhibit,Frick should not inspire their views on others,for example to hold gay parades


there is a common place ,and a private place

in General, you must adhere to the General rules

at home you can be gay,Frick and any whom you want

but in a public place behave social norms ,so this place is called a public ,not a personal

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then why did they come into the Church and not in the Kremlin

their logic is not understandable

 

It's kind of upsetting that you continue to say this after so many explanations have been given.

 

Pussy Riot didn't agree that the church should openly support Putin in your democratic society. They're arguing for a separation of Church and State. That's smart, you should want that too. Church and State have conflicting checks and balances, and aren't designed for oversight when they deal with each other.

 

Pussy Riot chose the Church because it's a little difficult getting into the Kremlin to protest. Why is that not understandable? I see why it's objectionable to you, but can't you at least understand why they did it? They weren't attacking your beliefs, they were attacking using those beliefs for political purposes. Do you think your spiritual beliefs should be exploited by politicians?

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many people voted about what norms should be in a public place

and one freak cannot be larger than those of many people

a public place is not a place for 1 person,so he acted like he wants

home is his place,he can walk around naked,practice homosexuality and do anything


 

Pussy Riot chose the Church because it's a little difficult getting into the Kremlin to protest. Why is that not understandable?

there is not clear a group of naked FEMEN meet with Putin and why pussy riot not met as

Edited by alkis3

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many people voted about what norms should be in a public place

and one freak cannot be larger than those of many people

a public place is not a place for 1 person,so he acted like he wants

home is his place,he can walk around naked,practice homosexuality and do anything

First, please avoid calling anyone a "freak". That's an emotional attack aimed directly at a group of people you don't happen to agree with, which makes your label seem intolerant and bigoted.

 

Second, you already had laws in place about what norms must be followed by citizens. If a hooligan vandalizes something, they should be arrested for vandalism, not "hooliganism". If a hooligan violates private property, they should be arrested for trespass, not hooliganism.

 

Third, it's not just one person walking around naked because they feel like it. It's an attention-getting protest motivated by Putin's own topless displays regarding his war. You need to STOP setting up strawmen to knock down because the real questions we're asking you are too hard to answer.

 

there is not clear a group of naked FEMEN meet with Putin and why pussy riot not met as

That didn't happen in the Kremlin. Remember, we were talking about why Pussy Riot used a church instead of the Kremlin to stage their protest. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Pussy Riot are performers, rather than a feminist protest organization.

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