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Creationism vs reality


Moontanman
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Sadly, as it turns out her PhD is from a "Christian school" of some kind I suspect is just a diploma mill, she cut off communication before i could find out for sure I do know her pastor is part of her teaching staff, I lost her when she asked me straight up if i believed in Jesus or if i thought he was a myth, dumb ass me had to be honest...

That explains everything. Sad as it is, I doubt her PhD is worth anything, not even the title "Dr." she supposedly gets at the end.

Whether you call my heart affectionate, or you call it womanish: I confess, that to my misfortune, it is soft. ~Ovid

Clearly, Ovid never heard of "hell hath no fury..."

 

Whether you call their heads quarrelsome, or you call them knucklish, I convey that to our misfortune they are blocks. ~ Acme

Yes. But then again we go back to context; most probably, these kind of people won't benefit from neither ridicule nor pure argument. But perhaps the people who listen in and watch will.
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snip...

 

Whether you call my heart affectionate, or you call it womanish: I confess, that to my misfortune, it is soft. ~Ovid

Clearly, Ovid never heard of "hell hath no fury..."

 

True. He being dead and all when Congreve penned it. :P But if I may be so bold to suggest he understood it. >>

When she will, cloudes the darckned heav'n obscure,

When she will, day shines every where most pure.

source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.03.0016&redirect=true

 

 

 

Yes. But then again we go back to context; most probably, these kind of people won't benefit from either ridicule or pure argument. But perhaps the people who listen in and watch will.

Try as I might, I cannot improve on that. :)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Two points:

 

1. There was a debate between a man who believes that a supernatural being created a planet and another man who believes that a mammalian species living on the surface of that planet controls the climate.

 

So, there was a debate between two theologians. How nice.

 

2. In the 1950s the “scientific” community began to throw out human evolution at the behest of vegetarians, concluding that saturated animal fat was bad for our species. In the 1970s, the United States Government gave its stamp of approval to this belief system, culminating in today’s MyPlate of the USDA, where it is recommended that humans obtain 75% of their calories from plant food.

 

And that same “scientific” community wants to lecture Old Testament literalists. Great.

 

 

The “scientific” community should look closely at its own belief systems before worrying about those who believe in the Book of Genesis.

 

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Two points:

 

1. There was a debate between a man who believes that a supernatural being created a planet and another man who believes that a mammalian species living on the surface of that planet controls the climate.

 

So, there was a debate between two theologians. How nice.

 

 

There is a significant difference in thinking mankind can control the climate, and knowing that our activities have influenced it. The first one is ludicrous - the second is backed up by scientific evidence.

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1. There was a debate between a man who believes that a supernatural being created a planet and another man who believes that a mammalian species living on the surface of that planet controls the climate.

 

Well, first off there's strawman - I've never heard a climate scientist claim that humans CONTROL the climate. The claim is emissions of certain gases by human activities INFLUENCE the climate. Which is supported by an overwhelming quantity of empirical evidence. http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence

 

Which leads to this:

So, there was a debate between two theologians. How nice.

 

Being a false equivalence.

 

And then we have a second strawman:

 

2. In the 1950s the “scientific” community began to throw out human evolution at the behest of vegetarians, concluding that saturated animal fat was bad for our species.

 

a) The role of saturated fat in coronary disease is still under investigation by the scientific community. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/93/4/684.short

 

b) The link between modern dietary intakes and "human evolution" is spurious - early homonids predominately ate plant matter, and were not pre-adapted to eating meat. The major characteristic of early homonids in relation to diet is generalization and adaptability allowing for the exploitation of a wide range of food resources.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/283/5400/368.short

http://www.pnas.org/content/97/25/13506.short

 

c) The USDA claims that : "Fats and oils are part of a healthy diet and play many important roles in the body" and "Eating too much saturated fat, the type of fat that is solid at room temperature, may increase risk of heart disease. Similarly, eating too much trans fat, which is made when liquid vegetable oil is processed to become solid, also may increase risk of heart disease." http://www.csrees.usda.gov/nea/food/pdfs/hhs_facts_fats.pdf

 

NB the use of the word may.

 

 

 

The “scientific” community should look closely at its own belief systems before worrying about those who believe in the Book of Genesis.

 

You may want to represent what the scientific community accepts accurately before critiquing it.

Edited by Arete
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The “scientific” community should look closely at its own belief systems before worrying about those who believe in the Book of Genesis.

 

That's what science does and those who believe literal interpretations don't. It's also why science is the reason for health, high life expectancy, and general quality of life while those beliefs haven't seen to be able to give much at all to humanity at large.

Edited by Ringer
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This sounds like a typical argument for those who are anti evolution. I myself believe in evolution and have encountered similar arguments. Though unlike your friend the person I was discussing it with called me an ignorant moron that needed to see the light of god. Which really ticked me off. Also I can see where someone might link atheism with science(Not saying this is correct). There is atheists that seem to pass it off as such and act like being atheist makes you more intelligent and knowledgeable about science and the world. Even online a lot of the videos explaining debates are very subjective and only show the atheists point of view and how the atheist is always right. while I myself was never told this kind of stuff and came from a religious house I have heard of other Christians saying or talking about hearing strange stuff like this before. However you need to realize religion has many denominations and churches. So what one church says might be slightly different since they all seem to interpret the teachings differently. In fact some even to add stuff that was not actually in the bible to begin with.

Edited by Marshalscienceguy
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This sounds like a typical argument for those who are anti evolution. I myself believe in evolution and have encountered similar arguments. Though unlike your friend the person I was discussing it with called me an ignorant moron that needed to see the light of god. Which really ticked me off. Also I can see where someone might link atheism with science(Not saying this is correct). There is atheists that seem to pass it off as such and act like being atheist makes you more intelligent and knowledgeable about science and the world. Even online a lot of the videos explaining debates are very subjective and only show the atheists point of view and how the atheist is always right. while I myself was never told this kind of stuff and came from a religious house I have heard of other Christians saying or talking about hearing strange stuff like this before. However you need to realize religion has many denominations and churches. So what one church says might be slightly different since they all seem to interpret the teachings differently. In fact some even to add stuff that was not actually in the bible to begin with.

 

 

I can honestly say that I have never heard a religious explanation for reality that wasn't wrong, I am open to the possibility but claiming god did it has never explained anything i am aware of..

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I would say that evolution (really scientific thought in general) doesn't necessitate atheism. But what it does do is make theism necessary in practical terms. Meaning that using science and skepticism creates a naturalistic thought process in general, but it doesn't force one to have a solely naturalistic philosophy.

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I don't think the original argument/problem that Moontan brought necessitates any defense/debate of atheism. The point is moot regarding [Christian] creationism vs. reality in the situation Moontan confronted. That scarecrow has no brain.

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If there is a god who plays sadistic games like planting dinosaur bones, then I am all in, because that would be too funny. I pray Christianity is true, because then the end would not be the end. I doubt it though. It seems sadly convenient, and a tool for the insecure. I do believe in the universe’s will to survive. I heard that British physicist on the science channel, you know the one, he has that black hair and stands tall and handsome, say, “I believe the universe created us to measure itself.” That statement’s wisdom holds its own.

 

If evolution’s manner holds true, I want evolutionary scientists to keep plugging. I want to know what we were before Hominids. I imagine it all started in water, and it must have been a blood bath. I imagine creatures were doing their best to crawl out of such an affair. So, what did we look like during our swimming in the ocean days? However, life seems to have taken several turns since the very beginning . There is that dinosaur era. Were we a species during the dinosaur era? Really, what were apes before apes? I would think evolution’s game would tickle the Lord more than a magic trick. And behold.

 

Nevertheless, you asked how to deal with creationists. Well, it is more than perplexing how we all make our way and feed ourselves in such a complex world. If someone has a racket, let them play. Do not mess with that woman’s bread. Maybe this next statement’s contempt jumps overboard, but if you feel someone cannot add two plus two, walk the frick away. Seriously, that kind of reasoning spills from a well masked but dangerous person. Walk away and consider yourself lucky that you were not slain in the name of the Lord. Think about the reality of a creationist’s propaganda. Think about it. That is the part in the horror movie where you are on the edge of a seat screaming don’t go that way! Run man, run!

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People have their own reasons for religion. I find it best to let people believe what they want to. I think this just goes to show that intelligence is measured in more than only a standard perspective. Regardless, our species has come a long way. From fighting over resources with sticks, to fighting over resources and religion with an arsenal of advanced weaponry. To trying to avoid war and settle conflicts, end slavery, end bigotry. Everything in life evolves, I'm sure a day in which people have a general consensus of understanding life and science will be upon us soon. So let people believe what they want.

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People have their own reasons for religion. I find it best to let people believe what they want to. I think this just goes to show that intelligence is measured in more than only a standard perspective. Regardless, our species has come a long way. From fighting over resources with sticks, to fighting over resources and religion with an arsenal of advanced weaponry. To trying to avoid war and settle conflicts, end slavery, end bigotry. Everything in life evolves, I'm sure a day in which people have a general consensus of understanding life and science will be upon us soon. So let people believe what they want.

 

Now if only they would allow others the same simple courtesy much conflict could be avoided...

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People have their own reasons for religion. I find it best to let people believe what they want to.

That works fine until children die because their parent's religion doesn't allow them to treat certain illnesses. Or a science teacher's belief causes a child to wrongly learn basic science. Or when a religious belief causes people to think they have the right to destroy nature, or that human's can't strongly effect the global ecosystems. Or various other ways that beliefs can have negative effects on people.

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That works fine until children die because their parent's religion doesn't allow them to treat certain illnesses. Or a science teacher's belief causes a child to wrongly learn basic science. Or when a religious belief causes people to think they have the right to destroy nature, or that human's can't strongly effect the global ecosystems. Or various other ways that beliefs can have negative effects on people.

It is a crime to not get your child proper medical care. If you said "My child had cancer but I refuse to get him medical care since god will fix it eventually" it could be considered child abuse. This can also be brought up for things like not medicating a mentally ill child. If they determine your child needs to be medicated and you refuse to they could bring up a case against you stating its child abuse.

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It is a crime to not get your child proper medical care. If you said "My child had cancer but I refuse to get him medical care since god will fix it eventually" it could be considered child abuse. This can also be brought up for things like not medicating a mentally ill child. If they determine your child needs to be medicated and you refuse to they could bring up a case against you stating its child abuse.

 

 

That all depends on where you live doesn't it?

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It is a crime to not get your child proper medical care. If you said "My child had cancer but I refuse to get him medical care since god will fix it eventually" it could be considered child abuse. This can also be brought up for things like not medicating a mentally ill child. If they determine your child needs to be medicated and you refuse to they could bring up a case against you stating its child abuse.

In Oregon there is a particular group of such believers that have caused the deaths of a number of their children; some have been prosecuted. See lead story here: >> http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2008/04/childs-death-tests-oregon-law-on-faith.html

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Moontanman, that's tough, but if you can't get someone to believe molecular biology after all we can do, including create new living species in the lab, not to mention organisms that are alive but are clearly not anything that ever evolved on Earth, then your friend insists on ignoring reality and you should tell her so. She's welcome to deny whatever she wants, but that doesn't make it real and you should tell her so, and tell her of your concerns that she is ignoring reality.

 

You will never convince her but you can at least make her think about it.

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Moontanman, that's tough, but if you can't get someone to believe molecular biology after all we can do, including create new living species in the lab, not to mention organisms that are alive but are clearly not anything that ever evolved on Earth, then your friend insists on ignoring reality and you should tell her so. She's welcome to deny whatever she wants, but that doesn't make it real and you should tell her so, and tell her of your concerns that she is ignoring reality.

 

You will never convince her but you can at least make her think about it.

 

 

She blocked me and stopped answering my e-mails so to be honest i don't think anything I say will convince her. She follows the Ken Ham type crowd that would rather think reality is a scientific conspiracy, makes my head explode...

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You can lead a cat to food but you can't make him eat.

 

That's a shame. Unfortunately the only alternative is to label them all psychotics suffering from delusions. That is in fact the case, but you won't get far telling her so.

Edited by Schneibster
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It is a crime to not get your child proper medical care. If you said "My child had cancer but I refuse to get him medical care since god will fix it eventually" it could be considered child abuse. This can also be brought up for things like not medicating a mentally ill child. If they determine your child needs to be medicated and you refuse to they could bring up a case against you stating its child abuse.

There have been multiple cases of children dying due to neglect for religious reasons. It may be against the law, the parents may even be prosecuted (which is somewhat on and off depending on the area), but it doesn't do the dead child a whole lot of good. When it's the law vs. religious extremism the law doesn't usually win out on the decision making for them.

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That works fine until children die because their parent's religion doesn't allow them to treat certain illnesses. Or a science teacher's belief causes a child to wrongly learn basic science. Or when a religious belief causes people to think they have the right to destroy nature, or that human's can't strongly effect the global ecosystems. Or various other ways that beliefs can have negative effects on people.

 

Let's be honest, the above are merely your subjective values and there's no reason why others should hold the same.

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Let's be honest, the above are merely your subjective values and there's no reason why others should hold the same.

What's subjective about it? It's a collection of things that happen, reality isn't subjective.

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