dnl Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 (edited) Hi guys, I have two questions for you.1- We understand electrons as popping in and out of existence in a field of possibilities, but is it also how we understand their behavior when they are not part of an atom?2- Atoms can share electrons, but as they pop in and out of existence, and are never at the same place, how could they bind two atoms?***sorry for spelling mistake of "behavior", looks like I can't edit the title.***Looks like it's not a mistake after all, just not very American. Edited December 16, 2013 by dnl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Electrons popping onto and out of existence does not refer to electrons in atoms or being transported as part of an electron beam or current. In the former case, they are paired with a positron, and the existence is very brief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathematic Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle The above may help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaydnul Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) You will meet a dead end when attempting to relate the quantum world to your everyday experience. The word particle is just that, a word. It doesn't have any physical comparison in the macroscopic universe. There is no way to properly picture it in your head, which is where the mathematics comes to the rescue. That being said, virtual particles are different from your everyday electron. In QED, the interaction between the nuclei of the to atoms and the shared electron is described as the exchange of virtual particles. Look up QED and Feynman diagrams. Edited January 6, 2014 by jaydnul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekan Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 The OP, and the following replies, leads me to wonder this - can electrons really pop in and out of existence? Electrons seem to have a steady existence. You can see that when you use an electrical device, such as hoover or a computer. In these devices, the electric current works every time you switch on. The electrons are reliable. They flow smoothly and evenly through the wires,. They show no signs of capricious "popping in and out of existence". If they did, wouldn't our computers keep cutting out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 If they did, wouldn't our computers keep cutting out? Hang on! You mean yours doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 The OP, and the following replies, leads me to wonder this - can electrons really pop in and out of existence? Electrons seem to have a steady existence. You can see that when you use an electrical device, such as hoover or a computer. In these devices, the electric current works every time you switch on. The electrons are reliable. They flow smoothly and evenly through the wires,. They show no signs of capricious "popping in and out of existence". If they did, wouldn't our computers keep cutting out? As I stated earlier, this reference is to virtual particle pairs, not the electrons in materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekan Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You mean there are two kinds of electrons - one in virtual particle pairs, and the other in materials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You mean there are two kinds of electrons - one in virtual particle pairs, and the other in materials? It's not a different kind of electron, per se, it's that the electron is present under different circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekan Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 It seems to me that the electron is the one particle that we can cling on to. It actually exists. This is demonstrated by our electric lights, and all the other electric machines we use every day. These give solid proof of the particle's reality. In this it differs from other so-called "particles" like the Higgs boson, which might be nothing but the imaginative product of hopeful meter-readings, and will probably be discredited by 2014. Ay least the electron is real! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 It seems to me that the electron is the one particle that we can cling on to. It actually exists. This is demonstrated by our electric lights, and all the other electric machines we use every day. These give solid proof of the particle's reality. In this it differs from other so-called "particles" like the Higgs boson, which might be nothing but the imaginative product of hopeful meter-readings, and will probably be discredited by 2014. Ay least the electron is real! Just because you aren't familiar with the electronics being used to detect other particles doesn't mean they aren't real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) These give solid proof of the particle's reality. I would suggest you to get familiar with Cloud Chamber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efgy1bV2aQo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_chamber It's the cheapest particle detector you can build for less than $20 (mine has 40x25x25 cm so it's quite big). Single usage for a few minutes cost me $3.5. You can also make electron gun, and start "shooting" electrons to cloud chamber. To create high voltage there is needed array of capacitors 400 V, better electrolytic, and a few rectifying diodes. Total cost $30 here. Edited January 8, 2014 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I would suggest you to get familiar with Cloud Chamber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efgy1bV2aQo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_chamber It's the cheapest particle detector you can build for less than $20 (mine has 40x25x25 cm so it's quite big). Single usage for a few minutes cost me $3.5. You can also make electron gun, and start "shooting" electrons to cloud chamber. To create high voltage there is needed array of capacitors 400 V, better electrolytic, and a few rectifying diodes. Total cost $30 here. Best home experiment there is! Seeing the result of cosmic rays with a home made kit is pretty awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 It's not just a home toy. It was used to discovery many particles positron, muon, pion and kaon to name a few. Indirectly see result of x-ray ionization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 ! Moderator Note Kramer This is a mainstream physics thread - please keep your comments to accepted physics. If you wish to discuss new ideas please do so in the speculations forum. I have split your post off to form a new thread in speculations. Do not respond to this moderation within the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidivad Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hi guys, I have two questions for you. 1- We understand electrons as popping in and out of existence in a field of possibilities, but is it also how we understand their behavior when they are not part of an atom? 2- Atoms can share electrons, but as they pop in and out of existence, and are never at the same place, how could they bind two atoms? ***sorry for spelling mistake of "behavior", looks like I can't edit the title. ***Looks like it's not a mistake after all, just not very American. electrons and positrons can pop into existence ony to anihilate each other (they have opposite charges) so quickly that the law of conservation does not apply. these are called virtual particles because they did not exist long enough to be considered real. a real electron violates no laws because it's creation involved the addition of energy equivelant to it's mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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