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Why do we age?

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getting rid of bad genes, or simply not investing in perfect ones? If the cost/benefit ratio was poor, as it is, I would expect all sexual species to avoid investing in lifespan post sexual reproduction.

Then the question becomes, if an organism lives forever it can reproduce forever. True, like a poker player who bets a small amount each game can stay in the mix a LONG time. But the goal is to succeed quickly, using all of your resources in the most efficient manner possible. Right?

lol. Nature gave us infinite life - it's called 'cancer'. We don't like it because it destroys the form and function of the rest of the organism. A biological sort of anarchy in an organism formed by rules and term limits.

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Aging and dying is all a part of evolution, its quite efficient as a mean of getting rid of bad genes

 

Which is true, but you're making sound (intentionally or not) like evoltion is the reason why things die of old age. It's really the other way around. Evoltion works because critters die off.

 

If every critter that was born survived, there would be no natural selection and no evoltion.

 

Cellular disalignment doesn't work for single cell creatures now does it? They still get old and die. Bacteria are not immortal, though they can survive longer than some cells of the body.

 

Cellular damage is the greatest contributer to aging and ultimatly death. Every calorie you consume*, every sunburn you recieve causes cellular damage. It's only a matter of time (or a probability) that this continous damage will eventually compound and lead to death.

 

Now if all of your cells are aging, how is reproduction possible? Sperm and egg cells will age, mutate, and eventually wear out, so shouldn't every generation get a crappier copy?

 

The answer here is that they do. The trick here is that all the disfunctional individuals get weeded out (natural selction, evoltion and what not). The individual made with the faulty cells doesn't make it too far out into the world and he's removed from the pool.

 

 

*Several studies have shown that a calorie restricted diet will increase your lifespan. Metabolizing food releases free radicals that can have adverse effects on cells.

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Aging and dying is all a part of evolution, its quite efficient as a mean of getting rid of bad genes

 

I really have to disagree with this one. Dying of old age (so rare in these trying times) generally means that the deceased had a chance of reproducing, hence passing on those genes.

 

No, evolution doesn't have a way of getting rid of bad genes. That's because there ARE no bad genes, there is only the genetic make-up that makes an animal unsuitable for the environment it currently lives in. Henceforth, it becomes disadvantageous to the environment, and an animal with a better genetic make-up better equipped to deal with the environment passes off it's genes, while the disadvantageous animal normally dies off before that.

 

But, since this is a question concerning human beings, I could argue this:

 

Humanity has stopped evolving (at least in the normal sense). Evolution is really nature's way of adapting a population as a whole to better fit to the environment. This is because while animals migrate, they generally migrate to areas once or twice based on seasons. Generally, they stay in the same type of climate and environment. Humans, on the other hand, move to any environment and then change the ENVIRONMENT to suite THEM! So, natural selection, the device used by evolution, no longer qualifies for human evolution. Artificial selection would, because we're intelligent, and have a freedom (or sense) of choice.

 

Anyway, getting back on topic:

I had no idea about telomerase. But the thing about cellular damage is right, and I didn't even think about that.

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I really have to disagree with this one. Dying of old age (so rare in these trying times) generally means that the deceased had a chance of reproducing' date=' hence passing on those genes.

 

No, evolution doesn't have a way of getting rid of bad genes. That's because there ARE no bad genes, there is only the genetic make-up that makes an animal unsuitable for the environment it currently lives in. Henceforth, it becomes disadvantageous to the environment, and an animal with a better genetic make-up better equipped to deal with the environment passes off it's genes, while the disadvantageous animal normally dies off before that.

 

But, since this is a question concerning human beings, I could argue this:

 

Humanity has stopped evolving (at least in the normal sense). Evolution is really nature's way of adapting a population as a whole to better fit to the environment. This is because while animals migrate, they generally migrate to areas once or twice based on seasons. Generally, they stay in the same type of climate and environment. Humans, on the other hand, move to any environment and then change the ENVIRONMENT to suite THEM! So, natural selection, the device used by evolution, no longer qualifies for human evolution. Artificial selection would, because we're intelligent, and have a freedom (or sense) of choice.

 

Anyway, getting back on topic:

I had no idea about telomerase. But the thing about cellular damage is right, and I didn't even think about that.[/quote']

 

 

However, what I meant by aging was two things:

 

1. Aging is necessary because if we didn't age/die, there would be a greater portion of "old" and genes that aren't adapted to the constantly changing environment. And every generation will not get a crappier copy because of the genetic contribution between the mother and father during sex (of course considering that we're talking about bi-gender species)

 

2. Secondly, However, if by chance the animal with inferior genes didn't get weeded out by natural environmental factors, it serves as another limiting factor to preserving a fresh gene pool. For example, there are many crippling human genetic diseases that cause rapid aging and thus even prevent them from passing down their genes. Humans like you guys have previously said, no longer undergo the intense genetic natural selection that others animals in the past had to. Therefore, unless we age to weed out the "ancient" genes, there would always be a large portion of "ancient" genes while cramping the resources that would have otherwise gone to thos with "fresh" genes.

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You say some rather confusing things here. You made a couple of assumptions that don't quite work.

 

 

1. Aging is necessary because if we didn't age/die' date=' there would be a greater portion of "old" and genes that aren't adapted to the constantly changing environment. And every generation will not get a crappier copy because of the genetic contribution between the mother and father during sex (of course considering that we're talking about bi-gender species)

[/quote']

 

If an individual holds genes that are not adapted to the enviroment, natural selection will seek him out. If natural selection fails, then there is no sence of well or poorly adaped genes. There are just survivors.

 

In an evoltionary sence some of our genes are hundreds of thousands of years old. If they survived, it's because they work.

 

2. Secondly' date=' However, if by chance the animal with inferior genes didn't get weeded out by natural environmental factors, it serves as another limiting factor to preserving a fresh gene pool.

[/quote']

 

Again without natural selection, there is no sence of well adapted or poorly adapted genes. All of the genes are good enough for survial.

 

Therefore' date=' unless we age to weed out the "ancient" genes, there would always be a large portion of "ancient" genes while cramping the resources that would have otherwise gone to thos with "fresh" genes.

[/quote']

 

Yes, a longer lifespan will slow down the evoltionary process. Now whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is yet to be seen.

 

A long life span suggest the creature fills it's niche in the enviroment rather well. If the niche changes (natural selection changes) the life span of the species will shorten and the pace of evoltion will quicken. So is it bad?

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"Again without natural selection, there is no sence of well adapted or poorly adapted genes. All of the genes are good enough for survial."

 

Huntington's for example, even though causes an onset of neurological disorders usually after reproductive ages, is still life crippling. Wouldn't this be categorized as a poorly adapted gene even though it survives?

 

While genes that are responsible fitness (as exemplified by many Africans) adapt better to the African environment than say the typical Caucasian gene.

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The reason we age is because aliens grays made us that way. I am one of their experiments, I was made in the jar, they send me in this planet like somebody else. I am implanted in many ways, I could say for myself that I am a robot, like the whole world - matrix. God's grays are doing a great EVIL on me, they play with me like with a thing and not like with a person. To much to write about it, they closed the last sciforums.com just for me, not to write the truth no more. They are EVIL TO ME, they fear my truth! Thanks for all the sufferings I'm getting from Heavens! I wish I'll be death, don't wonna live with the transmitor in my head no more! THE GREAT EVIL IS A HEAVEN THE EARTH IS JUST THEIR PLAYGROUND.

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(sorry for my bad english), i heard that humans get older beacose of we are breathing,the oxygen what we use to burn,we wont use all of it,some pieces of it will be still left in our body,but we have also defending mechanism for it,to destroy these oxygen molekul pieces(dont remember right name),some still can break our DNA chains, so human will change--older and weaker.they tested it with animals, by giving them antioxydants so animals lived twice longer,if we could find good enough antioxydant,do get rid of these oxygen leftowers,we could live twice longer and not look out like grammas.but we still dye beacose of natural radiation thats everywhere (even a little inside us),poisons and chemicals we use.we can get deseases even if we are in a defencive bubble,inside our body are some deseases that are waiting until body is weak enough.i hope you understand,im not good in english(sience side of it is very weak)

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I do not know if this is right, but i was told that we age because oxygen destroys our DNA. I have no clue if this is right or what other people have said in this thread. Thats just what I heard.

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I've consistantly run into ads for this drug that "reduces aging" (It isn't endorsed by the FDA, surprise surprise) It does talk about the role of mitochondria in aging and relates the drug inside to the renewal of said mitochondria, but I deeply question its effectiveness...

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Hi meucat,

 

In fact, according to some theories, we COULD live eternally, without aging, it's not physiologically impossible, in fact some multicellular organisms in many phyla doesn't seems to age. The reason we get old and die is probably because it's advantageous from an evolutionary point of view (I know it sound strange at first).

 

What you need to ask is; it is advantageous to age/die for the individual or his genes. At first it doesn't seem so. If you don't age, you could reproduce longer, have more children, and therefore making a greater contribution to the next generation (increasing fitness).

 

You must understand that all organism tend to increase their fitness (their genetic contribution to the next generation) and

do not care about "species survival". To increase fitness, reproducing early is better than late, because your children will

have children faster and your genetic contribution to next generations would be greater (By the way this is the subject of a subdiscipline of evolutionary ecology; life history evolution).

 

Medawar (1952) proposed that, as late reproduction does not contribute much to fitness, the selection against genes affecting individuals late in life is very weak, so they accumulate.

 

Another explanations, probably complementary to Medawar's theory, made by Williams (1957) is that some genes are affecting positively the individuals early in life but negatively later in life, contribution to the fitness of the individual at the expanse of his long term survival. We call that an antagonistic pleiotropy. The existence of those genes were confirmed by many experiments (Rose and Charlesworth, 1981; Luckinbill et al, 1984 and Leroi et al, 1994)

 

Sure, it doesn't explain the physiological reason for aging, in fact, according to those theories, aging is the consequence of diverse genetical and physiological causes. However it explain WHY, in essence, we experience senescence.

 

References;

 

Roff, D.A. 2002. Life History Evolution. Sinauer Associates. The best book on life history evolution, lots of maths :)

 

Stearns, S.C. 1992. The Evolution of Life Histories. Oxford University Press.

 

Fox, C.W., Roff, D.A. and Fairbairn, D.J. (Editors). 2001. Evolutionary Ecology: Concepts and Case Studies. Oxford University Press. Have a whole chapter on senescence.

 

Medawar, P.B. 1952. An Unsolves Problem in Biology. H.K.Lewis, London.

 

Williams, G.C. 1957. Pleiotropy, natural selection, and the evolution of senescence. Evolution, 11, 398-411.

 

Leroi, A.M. Chippindale, A.K., and Rose, M.R. 1994. Long term laboratory evolution of a genetic life-history trade-off in Drosophila melanogaster. I. The role of genotype-by-environment interaction. Evolution, 48, 1244-1257.

 

Luckinbill, L.S., Arking, R., Clare, M.J., Cirocco, W.C. and Buck, S.A. 1984. Selection for delayed senescence in Drosophila melanogaster. Evolution, 38, 996-1003.

 

Rose, M.R., and Charlesworth, B. 1981. Genetics of life history in Drosophila melagaster. II. Exploratory experiments. Genetics, 97, 187-196.

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it is impossible to live forever, with same body. We might live meaby 200 years with different kind of help,but we still dye. only solution would be if we could clone human so that the body would be like 20 years old ant cut and paste the all info from the brain to new body,so the old one is after that empty. :)

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isn't it the oxygen? I remember reading or something that Oxygen poisened us slowly.

Wearing down our organs, making us age. Anyone else know of this?

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i always thought it was to do with the fact that from the moment we're born we're dying, our cells slowly EVER so slowly decompose and we don't notice the difference until we have reached the apex of our lives when things go down hill. wat ya think guys?

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isn't it the oxygen? I remember reading or something that Oxygen poisened us slowly.

Wearing down our organs' date=' making us age. Anyone else know of this?[/quote']

I think you're talking about the free radicals that result from metabolism (which involves respiration w/oxygen, I honestly don't know the details of how they're released and all that, hopefully someone else does and can kindly explain it).

 

That's why foods and supplements with antioxidants are supposed to be good for you, they're supposed to protect your cells from damage by those free radicals.

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Guest jago25_98

Because death is life.

 

Mitochondria burn O2 and fuel and that damages. DNA recopies mistakes like a photocopier. Perhaps the point may have been, why do some animals die suddenly while we fade out - because that's the way they do things.

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I've consistantly run into ads for this drug that "reduces aging" (It isn't endorsed by the FDA, surprise surprise) It does talk about the role of mitochondria in aging and relates the drug inside to the renewal of said mitochondria, but I deeply question its effectiveness...

 

I think your talking about Juvenon. It is widely advertised in science mags. Its main ingrediant is Alpha Lipoic Acid which is a powerful anti-oxidant that is both fat and water soluble.

 

Juvenon is overpriced. There are better brands of ALA (alpha lipoic acid) that are far cheaper.

 

Personally I use Glucophase XR which is a stabilized form of the R isomer version of ALA.

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Well I think that this thread is doing great in terms of the amount of info and wideness of thoughts that it provides.

Well acc. to me , it is a mixed expression of evolution, environment and the genes. The food habits, excercise and living conditions like exposure to sunlight, quality of air and water and amount of sleep all contribute to the effects and help aging.

People in Japan have an avg life span > 70 years while some places like in Ethiopia it's like 45-48only. Moderate conditions and healthy food not only helps in regulating that homeostasis of the body but also delays senesence in cells.

A labour in deep mines is heavily exposed to unwanted gases and minimal light when performing heavy labor work, that is reflected on the health as he is more prone to diseases and therefore less life span.

But does it mean that any amount of anti-oxidants that he might take will reverse the effects ........ nope!! But will it reduce the efficiency of his genes ...... is still not proved and remains a mystery .

 

Although food is very important as my grandmother (she's 88 and happy!!) eats only fruits and curd twice a day for the last 25-30 years and does some excercise........ although her parents did not survive that long and (as told by her) died before attaining the age of 50. It proves that the genes might have some role to play but it might not be the only one and the greater factor.

 

Some of the studies have revealed that vegetarian people are les prone to diseases and more chances of living even if kept in the same environ as others.

 

What I wanna say is that modern scientists and molecular biologists may be close to deciphering as to what causes aging but they are still far far from preventing it. But in Indian and Greek mythology we have people who have lived according to their will and chose to die accordingly. There were people who could survive for more than 100 years and still were healthy and active enough. IF we cud find from some of their scripts what made them do so we can start to stop the process rather than going into the intricacies of it.

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Some of the studies have revealed that vegetarian people are les prone to diseases and more chances of living even if kept in the same environ as others.

 

I'm sorry if I'm taking this off topic but were these studies done with wild meat, or domesticated factory meat?

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My suggestion on slowing down aging is to do a search on the balance of DHEA and Cortisone which changes for the worse around age 52. In particular look at the new advances in medicinal fabrication at the 7-keto variety sold as a supplement type of DHEA that doesn't break down and turn into hormones.

 

Here are a few short summaries with links below I have been researching that I will share before a full compendium is published on my website about health. oh and by the way,after reading the original post that started off this subject my opinion is:

"IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TEACH WHAT IT IS NOT KNOWN". -incorrect

SINGLE ORGANISMS NEVER AGE NOR DIE - incorrect

It may be impossible to teach with words but not with action. Also, as far as I know, anything that lives can die, if nothing else from lack of water.

-----------------------------------------------------------

enjoy :)

 

 

I read this article about pancreatic cancer and found it to be well

done. It is ended by a glossary and list of books on the subject. The

subheadings are definition, description, causes and symptoms, diagnosis,

then under treatment, the subheadings staging, surgery, radiation therapy,

chemotherapy, biological treatments, alternative treatment, prognosis,

prevention and key termss which is the glossary. Well worth reading.

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/pancreatic_cancer_exocrine.jsp

 

 

This website contains on this page called Digestive Disorders Home Page,

the following subheadings which blossum out into more subheadings:

Diagnostic Procedures, Digestive Disorders, Colorectal Cancer,

Esophageal Cancer, Medications and the Digestive System, Stomach Cancer,

The Digestive System - An Overview, Digestive Disorders Glossary and

Digestive Disorders Online Resources. Diagrams are included on some pages.

http://ohsuhealth.com/htaz/digest/index.cfm

 

 

This website is about PET scans, Positron Emission Tomography also called

PET Imaging and contains these subheadings. What is Positron Emission

Tomography, What are some of the common uses of the procedure, How should

I prepare for the procedure, What does the equipment look like, How does

the procedure work, How is the procedure performed, What will I experience

during the procedure, Who interprets the results and how do I get them,

What are the benefits vs. risks, and What are the limitations of Positron

Emission Tomography?

http://www.radiologyinfo.org/content/petomography.htm

 

This website article deals with the diet as the key to health. It states

that 6-8 cups of water a day are a healthy ammount. Then it goes on to

relate 13 cups for men is a healthy ammount. However it does not state

the weight of hte indidual man.

By boosting your intake of omega-3s, you may help ward off depression,

severe menstrual cramps, macular degeneration (a cause of blindness),

fatal heart attacks, and possibly even breast cancer. (A 3-oz serving

of cooked salmon has 1.9 g of omega-3s;

 

"COX-2 inhibitor drugs, so-called because they block an enzyme called

cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2), are used to treat the pain and inflammation

of arthritis. There is now compelling evidence that they may also

protect against cancer." is quoted. Tumeric, rosemary, green tea, red

grapes, and bee propolis are all touted as having anti-oxidant properties

in the prevention of cancer cells.

http://www.wholehealthmd.com/news/viewarticle/1,1513,844,00.html

 

A different technically written viewpoint of free radicals and the

oxidation they cause as well as the natural anti-oxidants the body

produces with further articles on free radicals, cancer & degenerative

disease.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/diane.demers/freerad/freerad2.htm

 

"Any healthy diet should include tryptophan-rich sources such as these.

In addition, 5-HTP is available as a supplement; this form of the

compound is extracted from the seeds of the African plant, Griffonia

simplicifolia." The gift of life in in these words. 5-HTP, in my opinion,

helps the mind adjust to the happiness of taking a vegetable based high

protein supplement & favor it instead of previous takings of meat protein.

The webpage below has an informative article on 5-HTP.

http://www.wholehealthmd.com/news/viewarticle/1,1513,844,00.html

 

This is a well written and lengthy webpage written about herbs. The focus

is on garlic, cayenne and echinecea as immune system helpers. Garlic is

stated as being a more powerful antifungal than nystatin which is the

anti fungal prescibed for doctors for stubborn cases of atheletes foot.

This article is so well done I avidly suggest a full reading for a

clear understanding of the natural cures available including olive leaf.

http://waronaids.com/supplementation-backup.asp

 

This excellent article is titled "You Can Prevent Cancer". Subheadings

are Some Scary Statistics, And What You Can Do About It, Healthy Bodies

Win the "War on Cancer" Every Day, What's in a Cancer Preventive Diet,

Flavinoid-rich Foods, Cruciferous Vegetables, Carotenoid-rich Foods,

Cancer-Protective Herbs, Tumeric, Garlic, Ginger, Panax ginseng, Green

Tea, Rosemary, Cancer-Protective Oils, Olive Oil, Flax Seed, Cancer

Protective Protein-rich Foods, Deep & Cold Water Fish, Sybeans, Cancer

Preventive Cutting Edge Supplements, Lipoic acid, Ellagic acid,

Tocotrienols, Pycnogenol, Reservatrol, CLA-Conjugated Linoleic Acid and

Cancer Prevention Dos and Don'ts. Names chemicals for extra research.

http://www.locateadoc.com/articles.cfm/search/91

 

 

"Albumin and globulin are the two types of protein that are measured

by Total Protein. Albumin is the most important type of protein with

respect to the needs of cells in the body. Low albumin levels can

occur in people who have dietary problems including diarrhea, nausea,

or decreased appetite and can often be corrected easily." to quote one

of many subheadings on the vast array of chemicals within the body.

http://www.aidsmeds.com/lessons/CSpopup.htm

A similar website with more abbreviated descriptions of the same

chemicals within the body.

http://caprofile.net/t3.html

A similar website with more abbreviated descriptions of the same

chemicals within the body.

http://www.crestwoodmedcenter.com/CustomPage.asp?PageName=Lab%20-%20Chemistry

 

 

 

Vitamin B12, plays an important role in the metabolism of nerve

tissue, protein, fats and carbohydrates. It also aids in the

production of DNA/RNA and red blood cells. It also plays a role in the

health of the spinal cord. A lack of adequate levels of Vitamin B12

may lead to pernicious anemia, lack of energy, weakness, muscle

soreness, mental and nervous disorders, poor reflexes, speaking

difficulty and nerve degeneration. As a dietary supplement, take

1000 mcg daily for a couple of months for therapeutic results.

http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm

 

Where does this histamine come from?

One source is when the amino acid histidine looses a carboxyl group.

Some bacteria can faciliate this conversion too. So if you have a

bacteria overgrowth, it may be using up histidine and converting it to

more histamine. Another big source is directly from foods. Egg,

strawberries, cocoa, chocolate, bananas, citrus, pineapple, pork, soy,

benzoates, sulfites, nitrates, BHA, BHT, food colors, MSG.

 

One source is when the amino acid histidine loses a carboxyl group.

Some bacteria can faciliate this conversion too. So if you have a

bacteria overgrowth, it may be using up histidine and converting it

to more histamine. Another big source is directly from foods. Some

people may have a problem eliminating histamine from their foods and

this causes reactions which LOOK LIKE allergies, but are not true IgE

mediated allergies. You may see a histamine reaction which is just too

high levels of histamine and not because an antigen caused an immune

reaction to something

http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm

lots of links within article using webpage address. very professional!

 

 

 

Some questions answered about dandelion leaf and root tea, etc.

"In cases of stomach ulcer or gastritis, Dandelion should be used

cautiously, as it may cause overproduction of stomach acid."

4-10 grams of dried leaves can be added to 1 cup of boiling water

People taking the leaves should be sure that their practitioner

monitors potassium levels. Dandelions are remarkable sources of

natural potassium

http://www.alternative-healthzine.com/html/0201_2.html

 

There are three enzymes known to have significant anti-oxidant activity.

One of these is Superoxide Dismutase (SOD), which is present in wheat

grass. Wheat grass all eight of the essential amino acids, as well as

13 of the remaining 16. Superoxide Dismutase (SOD), P4D1, Chlorophyll

and Muco-polysaccharides are four other special components of wheat grass.

http://www.alternative-healthzine.com/html/0500_2.html

 

enter zip code to find naturopathic doctor

http://www.naturopathic.org/

entered only state + % in city space to get state lists

 

Prices for all Grass and Sprouts are by the pound: Pounds Price

1 lb $12.00, 2 lbs $16.00, 3 lbs $24.00, 4 lbs $32.00, 5 lbs $37.50.

Wheatgrass, sunflower sprouts, snow pea greens and radish green sprouts

for the above prices are offered at this website or look for a source

of bulk seed & sprout them in shallow dirt yourself buying their seed

at reasonable prices.

http://www.sproutman.com/index.html

http://www.sproutman.com/sproutseeds.html - to see prices on garden mix

wheatgrass/wheat seed, crunchy bean mix, Barley(hulless), Golden Alfalfa,

buckwheat, Kamut, garbanzo, sweet green peas, french lentils, red lentils,

Mung beans, Fenugreek, Black Sunflower, Red Clover, China Radish Rose,

Broccoli Blend, Broccoli, Garlic Chives(non-organic).

 

-------------------------------------------------------

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i always thought it was to do with the fact that from the moment we're born we're dying, our cells slowly EVER so slowly decompose and we don't notice the difference until we have reached the apex of our lives when things go down hill. wat ya think guys?

 

I have reached the apex of my life and let me tell you it was one heck of a whammer jammer. I just hope it takes as long to go down as it took going uP

:) at least as long, I want a few years to just sit around and drool :cool: dreamstream wisdom......

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Well, it could be possible to reverse, however, I would be iffy about doing it.

 

Your bones decomposing? not good. Anything is possible in genetics the more we go into to it. I believe that radiation will play a big factor in all of this. You would have to replace a lot of cells and alter their dna a little bit.

 

When I'm thinking about cells interacting with each, I think about how they would react to a cell with almost the same DNA..

 

Hi, I'm windows 95, I'm a lot better than windows ME, and for that reason I don't want to change... yeah.. the cells aren't going to be too happy. but with some radiation, multiplication of cells, something could probably happen. I would think that a person should wait until their done growing.. probably 30s. and then try to reverse age.

 

however I think your age would keep reversing, so you would have to find a way to bring your age back up again. However, the body is quite the amazing thing to find a resistance to things. Eventually that method will disappear. But i'm guessing cybernetics will walk in right about then.

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