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Dbaiba

The Real Origin of The Scientific Method Is Religious

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Well, if personal experience is backed up by other convincing data , then it is a valid one , don't you think ?

This would be my point, in the story the man couldn't back up his sighting a of a sauropod with anything but his personal experience. In the face of total lack of positive evidence a reasonable man would have to admit that maybe he didn't see the dinosaur at all....

 

That's a ridiculous hilarious misinterpretation of a Qur'anic verse that alluded to something else totally different :

Deep under the ocean there is a sort of a "lake " of fresh unsalty water not mixing with salty water : the famous oceanologue French captain Cousteau had discovered that some time ago , a long time before he died .

You need to show where Cousteau makes this claim, it is physically impossible for a lake of freshwater to lie under a layer of salt water. Please show us where Cousteau makes this assertion....

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The idea that the origin of the Scientific Method is religious in it's nature is ridiculous.

 

If anything Religion is a creation not based in any way upon the Scientific Method as the tenet of all Religion is FAITH.

 

Science does not take anything upon FAITH.

 

Split Infinity

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Moderator :

Hi :

I will now proceed by quoting my removed link ,without any reference to any outside links , except youtube then .

P.S.: I would like to thank everyone here for their interesting reactions and kindness.indeed .



The Islamic Origin of the Scientific Method :


Hi, dear folks :

Note :


I would like to thank you all very much indeed for all your interesting reactions i appreciate very much indeed.

Compared to other similar sites,this one is really a great one , partly thanks to its rational , decent, polite , subtle, respectful, educated, and civilized members, i must add , to my great delight .

This site really deserves to be mentioned, as it is rightly so, on the top list by Google search indeed for top science forums : This site is one of some real open-minded top island of knowledge , amidst a sea of intolerance , pseudo-science, scientific dogmas and sscientific bigotry , scientific extremism ...

I say that because i had so many bad and some very few good personal experiences on the matter , believe me i can tell : I was kicked out of Dawkins' site .for example , on 3 occasions, simply because i presented this same topic concerning the real origin of the scientific method , the same happened to me in other " science " sites which cannot tolerate other views than theirs , than the main-stream ones .

You should be proud of yourselves, i mean it .

I did join this great site's community in order to get some inspirations , ideas and further knowledge concerning Biology , but then , i thought that it would be fruitful for us all to have some informed debates concerning the real origin of the scientific method first .

That said :

Note : i was accused earlier by a moderator here of allegedly having used some insults against a certain member here : I just used the words " ignorant and mallicious " in response to people who accuse islam of teaching the so-called killing of non-believers without any reason, like the member in question did .

That use of words cannot be branded as insults , i guess .

I am absolutely against insults , vulgar or irrespectful behaviour, personal offenses ...so.



Look, just forget about that salty unsalthy water thing ,for the time being at least I thought i knew what i was talking about ,regarding that Qur'anic verse in question and regarding what Cousteau might or might not have confirmed what i understood of that verse , but i found out i was wrong about both issues, i must admit .
I will try to do some research on the matter and then you will hear from me later on .

It was all hear -say i took for granted from thirds without any further personal investigation on the matter , unfortunately enough .

Normally , i am very careful about what i say , to some extent at least .

But , in this case , i realise i made a lethal mistake i will try to correct soon enough .

Sorry about that . My mistake . Shame on me .

Second : I am not here to talk about islam, neither in general nor in detail .

I also cannot answer some islamic religious issues, some people have raised here above ,mainly because my knowledge of islam is very limited : i know only the islamic basics concerning the religious part of islam at least .



I just want to prove to you, beyond the shadow of a doubt , the islamic religious Qur'anic origin of the scientific method .

This case is a solid waterproof one , i must assure you .

Earlier muslims did invent the scientific method and did practice it also , during the glory time or the golden time of islam , ( When Europe was still struggling against its medieval dark ages ) ,thanks mainly to and not- despite of islam :

The expistemology of the Qur'an can shed some light on that : The Qur'an that considers the seeking of knowledge in the broader sense , the use of reason, common sense , experience , observation ....as religious duties , as forms of worship of God .

That the rise of religious extermism in islam was , during a certain period of history , anti-science is a tragedy and fact that was one of the reasons that can explain the decline of muslims , not islam's , and the rise of the civilization of the west that had embraced the scientific method and had made it its own , science as one of the major players, if not THE major player, that paved the road to modernity .

So, since this site does not allow any reference to most outside links , i will just quote my removed link once again, but after removing those outside links , except those of youtube .Links to the latter are allowed here as i saw in some other topic .

There is no reason indeed not to allow links to youtube .

Those youtube videos concern the research on the field, so to speak, of an Iraki-British scientist physicist who tried to approach the issue of science and islam .He did that brilliantly, i must say .

Just try to take a look thus at the material displayed here below : and then you can decide for yourselves whether my allegations deserve some deeper research or not :

Try to study this material carefully with an open critical objective mind , please :

Thanks for your time, understanding , patience , generosity and cooperation i appreciate indeed .



Ladies and Gents (I do not know whether there are some ladies members here though ) , without further a due :


I proudly present to you :



The Islamic Origin of The Scientific Method :


Source: Briffault's "Making of Humanity "





Here you go :


Note that the author mentions the "Arabic civilization or Arabic science " instead of saying the islamic ones : Arabs were in the minority concerning the latters




Excerpt from "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought In Islam " by Sir Dr.Muhammad Iqbal :





Iqbal was quoting Briffault : chapter 5 : The spirit of muslim culture :


(....Europe has been rather slow to recognise the islamic origin of her scientific method .But full recognition of the fact has at last come .Let me quote one or two passages from Briffault's making of Humanity :






Quote :


"....It was under their succesors at that Oxford school that Roger Bacon learned Arabic & Arabic science .Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method.Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of muslim science & method to christian Europe, and he never wearied of declaring that a knowledge of Arabic & Arabian science was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge.Discussions as to who was the originator of the experimental method are part of the colossal misrepresentation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of the Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread & eagerly cultivated throughout Europe . -pp.200-01-


Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world ,but its fruits were slow in ripening .Not until long after Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant to which it had given birth rise in his might .It was not science which brought Europe back to life .


Other and manifold influences from the civilization of islam communicated its first glow to European life.


For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of the islamic culture is not traceable,nowhere is it so clear& momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme force of its victory -natural science & the scientific spirit.


The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture , it owes its existence .


The ancient world was , as we saw , pre-scientific .


The astronomy & mathematics of the Greek were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture .The Greeks systematized, generalized & theorized , but the patient ways of investigation , the accumulation of positive knowledge ,the minute methods of science,detailed & prolonged observation, experimental inquiry ,were altogether alien to the Greek temperament .


Only in Hellinistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world, what we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry , of new methods of investigation ,of the method of experiment ,observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks .


That spirit & those methods were introduced to the European world by the Arabs -p.191-" end quote


The first important point to note about the spirit of muslim culture then is that ,for purposes of knowledge,it fixes its gaze on the concrete, the finite .


It is further clear that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in islam was due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it .In fact ,the influence of the Greeks who,as Briffault says ,were interested chiefly in theory ,not in fact ,tended rather to obscure the muslims ' vision of the Qur'an ,and for at least two centuries kept the practical Arab temperament from asserting itself & coming to its own .I want therefore to definitely eradicate the misunderstanding that Greek thought , in any way, determined the character of muslim culture.....)




Source : The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam by Sir Dr. Muhammad Iqbal , chapter 5 : the spirit of muslim culture :


















Further more , see in the above mentioned book of Iqbal how muslims were the first ever to discover evolution itself & much much more




see this 3-part docu on the matter too while u are at it , presented by a an Iraki-British scientist on the field :
BBC documentary :





http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...&v=TPlaS_wGzx8




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0FSgNE4Lxc&feature=BFa&list=PL523826BEF4A 1EF7B&lf=player_embedded






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjdnKE_i9E or

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjdnKE_i9E&feature=BFa&list=PL523826BEF4A 1EF7B&lf=player_embedded



Evolution Discovered By Muslims ,many centuries before Darwin was even born :


Quote :

(........The Qur'an argues the phenomenon of re-emergence of the ego on the analogy of his first emergence :

"Man saith : what , after i am dead , shall i in the end be brought forth alive ? Doth not Man bear in mind that We made him at first when he was nought ? " (19:66-67)


"It is We Who have decreed that death should be among you.

Yet We are not thereby hindered from replacing you with others ,your likes ,or from producing you in a form which ye know not , Ye have known the first creation, will you not reflect ? " (56:60-62)

How did Man first emerge ?

This suggestive argument embodied in the last verses of the two passages quoted above did in fact open a new vista to muslim philosophers . It was Jaiz (d.255.AH) who first hinted at the changes in animal life caused by migrations & environment generally .The association known as "the brethren of purity" further amplified the views of Jaiz .

Ibn Maskawaih (d.421.AH) however , was the first muslim thinker to give a clear & in many respects thoroughly modern theory of the origin of man .
It was only natural & perfectly consistent with the spirit of the Qur'an that Rema regarded the question of immortality as one of biological evolution , and not a problem to be decided by the arguments of purely metaphysical nature , as some philosophers of islam had thought .

The theory of evolution ,however, has brought despair & anxiety , instead of hope & enthusiasm for life , to the modern world .

The reason is to be found in the unwarranted modern assumption that man's present structure , mental as well as physiological , is the last word in biological evolution , and that death , regarded as a biological event , has no constructive meaning .

The world of today needs a Rumi to create an attitude of hope , and to kindle the fire of enthusiasm for life .

His inimitable lines may be quoted here ;

First man appeared in the class of inorganic things,

Next , he passed therefrom into that of plants ,

For years , he lived as one of the plants ,

Remembering naught of his inorganic state so different

And when he passed from the vegetive to the animal state

he had no remembrance of his state as a plant

Except the inclination he felt to the world of plants

Especially at the time of spring & sweet flowers

Like the inclination of infants to towards their mothers

which know not the cause of their inclination to the breast.

Again the great creator ,as you know

Drew man man out of the animal into the human state

Thus man passed from one order of nature to another

........... End quote .


Source : The reconstruction of religious thought in islam by Muhammad Iqba


Quote :

.....".........Side by side with the progress of mathematical thought in islam ,we find the idea of evolution gradually shaping itself .

It was Jahiz who was the first to note the changes in bird -life caused by migrations.

Later Ibn Maskawaih who was a contemporary of Al Barena gave it the shape of a more definite theory , and adopted it in his theological work -Al Fauz Al Asghar _.

I reporduce here the substance of his evolutionary hypothesis , not because of its scientific value , but because of the light it throws on the direction in which muslim thought was moving .

According to Ibn Maskawaih , plant -life at the lowest stage of evolution does not need any seed for its birth & growth .Nor does it perpetuate its species by means of the seed .This kind of plant - life differs from minerals only in some little power of movement which grows in higher forms , & reveals itself further in that the plant spreads out its branches , & prepetuates its species by means of the seed.

The power of movement gradually grows farther untill we reach trees which possess a trunk , leaves & fruit.

At a higher stage of evolution stand forms of plant-life which need better soil & climate for their growth .

The last stage of development is reached in vine & date-palm which stand , as it were , on the treshold of animal life.

In the date -palm a clear sex distinction appears .

Besides roots & fibres it develops something which functions like the animal brain , on the integrity of which depends the life of the date-palm .

This is the highest stage in the development of plant-life , and a prelude to animal life .

The first forward step to animal life is freedom from earth-rootedness which is the germ of conscious movement .


This is the initial state of animality in which the sense of touch is the first & the sense of sight is the last to appear .

With the development of the senses of animal acquires freedom of movement as in the case of worms , reptiles , ants & bees .

Animality reaches its perfection in the horse among quadrupeds and the flacon among birds , and finally arrives at the frontier of humanity in the ape which is just a degree below man in the scale of evolution .

Further evolution brings physiological changes with a growing power of discrimination and spirituality untill humanity passes from barbarism to civilization ...." End quote


Source : "The reconstruction of religious thought in islam " by muslim philosopher great poet & Allama Dr Sir Muhammad Iqbal, Chapter 5 : The spirit of muslim culture

SplitInfinity, on 17 Jun 2013 - 01:23, said:
The idea that the origin of the Scientific Method is religious in it's nature is ridiculous.

If anything Religion is a creation not based in any way upon the Scientific Method as the tenet of all Religion is FAITH.

Science does not take anything upon FAITH.

Split Infinity

The epistemology of the Qur'an which incites believers to use their reason, common sense , observation, experience , the seeking of knowledge in the broader sense in relation to the universe, life , man , nature .... ....had triggered the invention of the induction, the scientific method ...earlier muslims had invented and practiced thanks to and not- despite of islam .

See above

Moontanman, on 17 Jun 2013 - 00:21, said:
This would be my point, in the story the man couldn't back up his sighting a of a sauropod with anything but his personal experience. In the face of total lack of positive evidence a reasonable man would have to admit that maybe he didn't see the dinosaur at all....

You need to show where Cousteau makes this claim, it is physically impossible for a lake of freshwater to lie under a layer of salt water. Please show us where Cousteau makes this assertion....

I made a mistake , i presume .

See above

John Cuthber, on 16 Jun 2013 - 11:09, said:
Well, why don't they?
It's true that a thousand years ago, the Islamic world was a long way a head in maths and medicine among other things.
But now, they are not.
Here's some evidence to support that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country

So, why is it that the West (broadly Christian) has a flourishing science base and the Islamic world doesn't?

Even if you accept the questionable assertion that Islam invented science- it also forgot it.
Could it be that part of the reason that science is undervalued in Islam is that their Holy book says daft things like salt water doesn't mix with fresh and that people who question that book are labelled as unbelievers or apostates and killed for it?

Could it be that a theocracy couldn't permit science to develop because it feared that, if people actually questioned the book, they would find it wrong and that would undermine the state's power.

Is it possible that the decision not to educate half the population held back progress.

To be fair, early Christianity was no better but we have addressed that by separation of religion and state.
As far as I can tell Islam would not permit that- no other authority is permitted.

It seems to me that any theocracy prevents progress and that idea is anathema to science.

See above

This is the time of muslims ' decline, not islam's, that has been going for more than 5 centuries now .
Anti-science , anti-knowledge in general religious extremism had been 1 of the major reasons behind muslims ' decline ....which had let , among other major things , to the definite closing of that extremely dynamic innovative creative self-revival or self-cleansing , self-reconstruction spirit of islam : the closing of the door of ALIjtihad or the closing of the door of the extremely innovative dynamic creative religious theological and other islamic denktanks : that creative inbuilt , so to speak, dynamic self-renewal spirit of islam door has been closed for more than 5 centuries now .

EdEarl, on 15 Jun 2013 - 23:25, said:
Dbaiba, I think most of us acknowledge contributions made by the Persians; they are well documented as shown below, briefly. The moderator who removed your link was not discriminating against Islam, merely enforcing the style of posting on this forum.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method#History
Note: Emphasis on Islamic scientists is mine.

See above

Science owes a lot more to muslims than just that : it owes its existence .

D H, on 16 Jun 2013 - 06:41, said:
Of course they had an influence. So did India and China, ancient Greece and Rome, even Babylonia and Egypt. A true history of mathematics and science goes back a long ways. It's a story of stuff learned and forgotten but then relearned or found.

The scientific revolution, however, happened but once, and it started in western Europe. Not anywhere else. By the way, it's still an act in progress. Just look at the number of people who still reject key tenets of biology, geology, and astronomy.

Science owes a lot more to muslims than just that : it owes its existence ; when Europe was deeply slumbering in its medieval dark age .

Science did not originate in Europe : history must be rewritten indeed .

See above

EdEarl, on 16 Jun 2013 - 03:51, said:
I agree, and religious people, especially in the US, are trying to torpedo scientific education. In so doing they harm themselves and others. It is a tragedy that makes me both angry and sad.

Wikipedia is not the only source that gives credit to Persia and Islam for advancing science/pre-science during the dark ages.

Religious extremism is indeed anti-science and even anti-life .

That's 1 of the reasons that can explain the current muslims' decline that has been going on for more than 5 centuries now .

That had broken the backbones and spirit of muslims .

But religious extremism cannot be blamed on religion itself

Proof ? see above how muslims not only invented and practiced the scientific method thanks to the epistemology of the Qur'an in relation to the universe, life , man , nature .....but had also discovered evolution, more than 6 centuries before Darwin was even born , thanks to the evolutionary spirit of the Qur'an ....and much much more .

Islamic Spain had even been indirectly responsible for triggering the protestant reformation as the katalysator of western enlightenment and thus the empiricism and phoilosophical liberalism of John Locke , for example , to mention just that , as muslims were indirectly responsible for triggering the Italian renaissance by trasmitting the ancient Greek legacy to the Europeans ...


In short : The modern world would not have been possible at all without the enormous and huge decisive fundamental and other influences of muslims and islam : the latter that had thus helped medieval Europe out of its dark age .

Or as Briffault said : there is not a single aspect of western growth or progress that cannot be traced back to islamic influences .

Edited by Dbaiba

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Moderator :

 

Hi :

 

I will now proceed by quoting my removed link ,without any reference to any outside links , except youtube then .

 

P.S.: I would like to thank everyone here for their interesting reactions and kindness.indeed .

 

 

 

The Islamic Origin of the Scientific Method :

 

 

Hi, dear folks :

 

Note :

 

 

I would like to thank you all very much indeed for all your interesting reactions i appreciate very much indeed.

 

Compared to other similar sites,this one is really a great one , partly thanks to its rational , decent, polite , subtle, respectful, educated, and civilized members, i must add , to my great delight .

 

This site really deserves to be mentioned, as it is rightly so, on the top list by Google search indeed for top science forums : This site is one of some real open-minded top island of knowledge , amidst a sea of intolerance , pseudo-science, scientific dogmas and sscientific bigotry , scientific extremism ...

 

I say that because i had so many bad and some very few good personal experiences on the matter , believe me i can tell : I was kicked out of Dawkins' site .for example , on 3 occasions, simply because i presented this same topic concerning the real origin of the scientific method , the same happened to me in other " science " sites which cannot tolerate other views than theirs , than the main-stream ones .

 

You should be proud of yourselves, i mean it .

 

I did join this great site's community in order to get some inspirations , ideas and further knowledge concerning Biology , but then , i thought that it would be fruitful for us all to have some informed debates concerning the real origin of the scientific method first .

 

That said :

 

Note : i was accused earlier by a moderator here of allegedly having used some insults against a certain member here : I just used the words " ignorant and mallicious " in response to people who accuse islam of teaching the so-called killing of non-believers without any reason, like the member in question did .

 

That use of words cannot be branded as insults , i guess .

 

I am absolutely against insults , vulgar or irrespectful behaviour, personal offenses ...so.

 

 

 

Look, just forget about that salty unsalthy water thing ,for the time being at least I thought i knew what i was talking about ,regarding that Qur'anic verse in question and regarding what Cousteau might or might not have confirmed what i understood of that verse , but i found out i was wrong about both issues, i must admit .

I will try to do some research on the matter and then you will hear from me later on .

 

It was all hear -say i took for granted from thirds without any further personal investigation on the matter , unfortunately enough .

 

Normally , i am very careful about what i say , to some extent at least .

 

But , in this case , i realise i made a lethal mistake i will try to correct soon enough .

 

Sorry about that . My mistake . Shame on me .

 

Second : I am not here to talk about islam, neither in general nor in detail .

 

I also cannot answer some islamic religious issues, some people have raised here above ,mainly because my knowledge of islam is very limited : i know only the islamic basics concerning the religious part of islam at least .

 

 

 

I just want to prove to you, beyond the shadow of a doubt , the islamic religious Qur'anic origin of the scientific method .

 

This case is a solid waterproof one , i must assure you .

 

Earlier muslims did invent the scientific method and did practice it also , during the glory time or the golden time of islam , ( When Europe was still struggling against its medieval dark ages ) ,thanks mainly to and not- despite of islam :

 

The expistemology of the Qur'an can shed some light on that : The Qur'an that considers the seeking of knowledge in the broader sense , the use of reason, common sense , experience , observation ....as religious duties , as forms of worship of God .

 

That the rise of religious extermism in islam was , during a certain period of history , anti-science is a tragedy and fact that was one of the reasons that can explain the decline of muslims , not islam's , and the rise of the civilization of the west that had embraced the scientific method and had made it its own , science as one of the major players, if not THE major player, that paved the road to modernity .

 

So, since this site does not allow any reference to most outside links , i will just quote my removed link once again, but after removing those outside links , except those of youtube .Links to the latter are allowed here as i saw in some other topic .

 

There is no reason indeed not to allow links to youtube .

 

Those youtube videos concern the research on the field, so to speak, of an Iraki-British scientist physicist who tried to approach the issue of science and islam .He did that brilliantly, i must say .

 

Just try to take a look thus at the material displayed here below : and then you can decide for yourselves whether my allegations deserve some deeper research or not :

 

Try to study this material carefully with an open critical objective mind , please :

 

Thanks for your time, understanding , patience , generosity and cooperation i appreciate indeed .

 

 

 

Ladies and Gents (I do not know whether there are some ladies members here though ) , without further a due :

 

 

I proudly present to you :

 

 

 

The Islamic Origin of The Scientific Method :

 

 

Source: Briffault's "Making of Humanity "

 

 

 

 

 

Here you go :

 

 

Note that the author mentions the "Arabic civilization or Arabic science " instead of saying the islamic ones : Arabs were in the minority concerning the latters

 

 

 

 

Excerpt from "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought In Islam " by Sir Dr.Muhammad Iqbal :

 

 

 

 

 

Iqbal was quoting Briffault : chapter 5 : The spirit of muslim culture :

 

 

(....Europe has been rather slow to recognise the islamic origin of her scientific method .But full recognition of the fact has at last come .Let me quote one or two passages from Briffault's making of Humanity :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote :

 

 

"....It was under their succesors at that Oxford school that Roger Bacon learned Arabic & Arabic science .Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method.Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of muslim science & method to christian Europe, and he never wearied of declaring that a knowledge of Arabic & Arabian science was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge.Discussions as to who was the originator of the experimental method are part of the colossal misrepresentation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of the Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread & eagerly cultivated throughout Europe . -pp.200-01-

 

 

Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world ,but its fruits were slow in ripening .Not until long after Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant to which it had given birth rise in his might .It was not science which brought Europe back to life .

 

 

Other and manifold influences from the civilization of islam communicated its first glow to European life.

 

 

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of the islamic culture is not traceable,nowhere is it so clear& momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme force of its victory -natural science & the scientific spirit.

 

 

The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture , it owes its existence .

 

 

The ancient world was , as we saw , pre-scientific .

 

 

The astronomy & mathematics of the Greek were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture .The Greeks systematized, generalized & theorized , but the patient ways of investigation , the accumulation of positive knowledge ,the minute methods of science,detailed & prolonged observation, experimental inquiry ,were altogether alien to the Greek temperament .

 

 

Only in Hellinistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world, what we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry , of new methods of investigation ,of the method of experiment ,observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks .

 

 

That spirit & those methods were introduced to the European world by the Arabs -p.191-" end quote

 

 

The first important point to note about the spirit of muslim culture then is that ,for purposes of knowledge,it fixes its gaze on the concrete, the finite .

 

 

It is further clear that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in islam was due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it .In fact ,the influence of the Greeks who,as Briffault says ,were interested chiefly in theory ,not in fact ,tended rather to obscure the muslims ' vision of the Qur'an ,and for at least two centuries kept the practical Arab temperament from asserting itself & coming to its own .I want therefore to definitely eradicate the misunderstanding that Greek thought , in any way, determined the character of muslim culture.....)

 

 

 

 

Source : The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam by Sir Dr. Muhammad Iqbal , chapter 5 : the spirit of muslim culture :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Further more , see in the above mentioned book of Iqbal how muslims were the first ever to discover evolution itself & much much more

 

 

 

 

see this 3-part docu on the matter too while u are at it , presented by a an Iraki-British scientist on the field :

BBC documentary :

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...&v=TPlaS_wGzx8

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0FSgNE4Lxc&feature=BFa&list=PL523826BEF4A 1EF7B&lf=player_embedded

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjdnKE_i9E or

 

1EF7B&lf=player_embedded

 

 

 

Evolution Discovered By Muslims ,many centuries before Darwin was even born :

 

 

Quote :

 

(........The Qur'an argues the phenomenon of re-emergence of the ego on the analogy of his first emergence :

 

"Man saith : what , after i am dead , shall i in the end be brought forth alive ? Doth not Man bear in mind that We made him at first when he was nought ? " (19:66-67)

 

 

"It is We Who have decreed that death should be among you.

 

Yet We are not thereby hindered from replacing you with others ,your likes ,or from producing you in a form which ye know not , Ye have known the first creation, will you not reflect ? " (56:60-62)

 

How did Man first emerge ?

 

This suggestive argument embodied in the last verses of the two passages quoted above did in fact open a new vista to muslim philosophers . It was Jaiz (d.255.AH) who first hinted at the changes in animal life caused by migrations & environment generally .The association known as "the brethren of purity" further amplified the views of Jaiz .

 

Ibn Maskawaih (d.421.AH) however , was the first muslim thinker to give a clear & in many respects thoroughly modern theory of the origin of man .

It was only natural & perfectly consistent with the spirit of the Qur'an that Rema regarded the question of immortality as one of biological evolution , and not a problem to be decided by the arguments of purely metaphysical nature , as some philosophers of islam had thought .

 

The theory of evolution ,however, has brought despair & anxiety , instead of hope & enthusiasm for life , to the modern world .

 

The reason is to be found in the unwarranted modern assumption that man's present structure , mental as well as physiological , is the last word in biological evolution , and that death , regarded as a biological event , has no constructive meaning .

 

The world of today needs a Rumi to create an attitude of hope , and to kindle the fire of enthusiasm for life .

 

His inimitable lines may be quoted here ;

 

First man appeared in the class of inorganic things,

 

Next , he passed therefrom into that of plants ,

 

For years , he lived as one of the plants ,

 

Remembering naught of his inorganic state so different

 

And when he passed from the vegetive to the animal state

 

he had no remembrance of his state as a plant

 

Except the inclination he felt to the world of plants

 

Especially at the time of spring & sweet flowers

 

Like the inclination of infants to towards their mothers

 

which know not the cause of their inclination to the breast.

 

Again the great creator ,as you know

 

Drew man man out of the animal into the human state

 

Thus man passed from one order of nature to another

 

........... End quote .

 

 

Source : The reconstruction of religious thought in islam by Muhammad Iqba

 

 

Quote :

 

.....".........Side by side with the progress of mathematical thought in islam ,we find the idea of evolution gradually shaping itself .

 

It was Jahiz who was the first to note the changes in bird -life caused by migrations.

 

Later Ibn Maskawaih who was a contemporary of Al Barena gave it the shape of a more definite theory , and adopted it in his theological work -Al Fauz Al Asghar _.

 

I reporduce here the substance of his evolutionary hypothesis , not because of its scientific value , but because of the light it throws on the direction in which muslim thought was moving .

 

According to Ibn Maskawaih , plant -life at the lowest stage of evolution does not need any seed for its birth & growth .Nor does it perpetuate its species by means of the seed .This kind of plant - life differs from minerals only in some little power of movement which grows in higher forms , & reveals itself further in that the plant spreads out its branches , & prepetuates its species by means of the seed.

 

The power of movement gradually grows farther untill we reach trees which possess a trunk , leaves & fruit.

 

At a higher stage of evolution stand forms of plant-life which need better soil & climate for their growth .

 

The last stage of development is reached in vine & date-palm which stand , as it were , on the treshold of animal life.

 

In the date -palm a clear sex distinction appears .

 

Besides roots & fibres it develops something which functions like the animal brain , on the integrity of which depends the life of the date-palm .

 

This is the highest stage in the development of plant-life , and a prelude to animal life .

 

The first forward step to animal life is freedom from earth-rootedness which is the germ of conscious movement .

 

 

This is the initial state of animality in which the sense of touch is the first & the sense of sight is the last to appear .

 

With the development of the senses of animal acquires freedom of movement as in the case of worms , reptiles , ants & bees .

 

Animality reaches its perfection in the horse among quadrupeds and the flacon among birds , and finally arrives at the frontier of humanity in the ape which is just a degree below man in the scale of evolution .

 

Further evolution brings physiological changes with a growing power of discrimination and spirituality untill humanity passes from barbarism to civilization ...." End quote

 

 

Source : "The reconstruction of religious thought in islam " by muslim philosopher great poet & Allama Dr Sir Muhammad Iqbal, Chapter 5 : The spirit of muslim culture

The epistemology of the Qur'an which incites believers to use their reason, common sense , observation, experience , the seeking of knowledge in the broader sense in relation to the universe, life , man , nature .... ....had triggered the invention of the induction, the scientific method ...earlier muslims had invented and practiced thanks to and not- despite of islam .

 

See above

I made a mistake , i presume .

 

See above

See above

 

This is the time of muslims ' decline, not islam's, that has been going for more than 5 centuries now .

Anti-science , anti-knowledge in general religious extremism had been 1 of the major reasons behind muslims ' decline ....which had let , among other major things , to the definite closing of that extremely dynamic innovative creative self-revival or self-cleansing , self-reconstruction spirit of islam : the closing of the door of ALIjtihad or the closing of the door of the extremely innovative dynamic creative religious theological and other islamic denktanks : that creative inbuilt , so to speak, dynamic self-renewal spirit of islam door has been closed for more than 5 centuries now .

See above

 

Science owes a lot more to muslims than just that : it owes its existence .

Science owes a lot more to muslims than just that : it owes its existence ; when Europe was deeply slumbering in its medieval dark age .

 

Science did not originate in Europe : history must be rewritten indeed .

 

See above

Religious extremism is indeed anti-science and even anti-life .

 

That's 1 of the reasons that can explain the current muslims' decline that has been going on for more than 5 centuries now .

 

That had broken the backbones and spirit of muslims .

 

But religious extremism cannot be blamed on religion itself

 

Proof ? see above how muslims not only invented and practiced the scientific method thanks to the epistemology of the Qur'an in relation to the universe, life , man , nature .....but had also discovered evolution, more than 6 centuries before Darwin was even born , thanks to the evolutionary spirit of the Qur'an ....and much much more .

 

Islamic Spain had even been indirectly responsible for triggering the protestant reformation as the katalysator of western enlightenment and thus the empiricism and phoilosophical liberalism of John Locke , for example , to mention just that , as muslims were indirectly responsible for triggering the Italian renaissance by trasmitting the ancient Greek legacy to the Europeans ...

 

 

In short : The modern world would not have been possible at all without the enormous and huge decisive fundamental and other influences of muslims and islam : the latter that had thus helped medieval Europe out of its dark age .

 

Or as Briffault said : there is not a single aspect of western growth or progress that cannot be traced back to islamic influences .

 

 

Is there any chance you could quote the actual verse from the Quran that supports your assertion because so far all you have is an appeal to authority...

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That silly site is either one of some extremists idiots who misinterpret the Qur'an or is it a fake one , because islam must absolutely not be imposed to people in any way and under no circumstance whatsoever = basic islamic teaching : see how jews , christians and others used to enjoy their human dignity ,freedom and freedom of belief , even under dominant islam in the past .while jews were persecuted everywhereelse, especially under the medieval church ...

 

 

Look, i am not gonna respond to anythingelse about islam in this topic = offtopic .

Edited by Dbaiba

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That silly site is either one of some extremists idiots who misinterpret the Qur'an or is it a fake one , because islam must absolutely not imposed to people in any way and under no circumstance whatsoever = basic islamic teaching : see how jews , christians and others used to enjoy their human dignity ,freedom and freedom of belief , even under dominant islam in the past ...

 

 

Look, i am not gonna respond to anythingelse about islam in this topic = offtopic .

 

 

I understand, "no true scotsman" is a powerful logical fallacy but it is still a fallacy...

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I understand, "no true scotsman" is a powerful logical fallacy but it is still a fallacy...

Whatever

Do you have something useful to say about this topic ?

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It's interesting that you the deny the actual scripture, it must be a religious thing to ignore what your scripture actually says when it is embarrassing but true...

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I'm not sure how you can misinterpret "he has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction", especially when dealing with what comes just before that.

 

First of all, Cousteau didn't write the Quran. Secondly, it's clear the Quran speaks of "two seas, flowing freely", not "a sort of a lake of fresh unsalty water". Third, even if you find springs of fresh water in the salty ocean, all of the water emerging from such a spring would mix with the salt water around it. Just because there's a constant flow of fresh water doesn't mean water doesn't mix. There is no mechanism for such an event to occur.

 

I'm not sure how you can misinterpret "he has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction", especially when dealing with what comes just before that.

 

First of all, Cousteau didn't write the Quran. Secondly, it's clear the Quran speaks of "two seas, flowing freely", not "a sort of a lake of fresh unsalty water". Third, even if you find springs of fresh water in the salty ocean, all of the water emerging from such a spring would mix with the salt water around it. Just because there's a constant flow of fresh water doesn't mean water doesn't mix. There is no mechanism for such an event to occur.

I looked it up , i made a terrible mistake , i will investigate it some more .

 

See my response in the topic " The real origin of the ecientific method is religious "

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Whatever

Do you have something useful to say about this topic ?

 

I have been involved in this topic from the beginning, you are the one who dragged islam into it and I must say your assertions have been dishonest to say the least, ignoring something because it's uncomfortable is wrong, if you have issues then you should defend them not simply dismiss them. From what you have said so far either your religion is whatever you say it is or you are simply not familiar with what it says, don't worry very few religious people are knowledgeable about that their scripture actually says...

 

I looked it up , i made a terrible mistake , i will investigate it some more .

 

See my response in the topic " The real origin of the ecientific method is religious "

 

You need to support this with something other than an appeal to authority, so far you have failed to show any evidence this is true. Sir Isaac Newton was a very devout Christian, his contributions to science are legendary but his religion had nothing to do with his scientific discoveries...

 

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Is there any chance you could quote the actual verse from the Quran that supports your assertion because so far all you have is an appeal to authority...

What are you talking about exactly ? Can you be more specific ?

Did you read what i posted here above , at least , concerning the islamic origin of the scientific method ?

 

The Qur'an is full of that epistemology of his that had lead to the invention of the scientific method by muslims ...not 1 verse , but plenty ...

 

Read the Qur'an then , just for the sake of curiosity then .

 

I had made appeal to authority only in this sense.How couldn't i otherwise ?

There is plenty of historic and scientific facts supporting the fact that the scientic method was invented and practiced by muslims .though, i must add

Edited by Dbaiba

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I am asking you to be specific, telling me what other people say the Quran says is meaningless, much like christians who only believe because of what their religious leaders tell them, ignoring what it actually says...



Oh and by the way, invented by and practiced by doesn't mean Islam invented it any more than Christianity invented the theory of gravity or that Judaism invented relativity...

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I have been involved in this topic from the beginning, you are the one who dragged islam into it and I must say your assertions have been dishonest to say the least, ignoring something because it's uncomfortable is wrong, if you have issues then you should defend them not simply dismiss them. From what you have said so far either your religion is whatever you say it is or you are simply not familiar with what it says, don't worry very few religious people are knowledgeable about that their scripture actually says...

 

 

You need to support this with something other than an appeal to authority, so far you have failed to show any evidence this is true. Sir Isaac Newton was a very devout Christian, his contributions to science are legendary but his religion had nothing to do with his scientific discoveries...

I was talking about the invention of the scientific method by muslims thanks to the epistemology of the Qur'an, not about the discovery of the laws of physics or gravity , not about inventing the wheel or about the discovery of DNA ....

 

Why do you have to twist things like that ?

 

I mentioned the book of Briffault "The making of humanity " , Briffault as a historian of science , to mention just that : he made that case very well : he proved the muslim ( The Arabic he said ) origin of the scientific method at least without linking it to islam for obvious reasosns (The man was a marxist , remember ) , via a long detailed series of facts and you tell me i was just appealing to authority ?

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I was talking about the invention of the scientific method by muslims thanks to the epistemology of the Qur'an, not about the discovery of the laws of physics or gravity , not about inventing the wheel or about the discovery of DNA ....

 

Why do you have to twist things like that ?

 

I mentioned the book of Briffault "The making of humanity " , Briffault as a historian of science , to mention just that : he made that case very well : he proved the muslim ( The Arabic he said ) origin of the scientific method at least without linking it to islam for obvious reasosns (The man was a marxist , remember ) , via a long detailed series of facts and you tell me i was just appealing to authority ?

 

 

Yes, unless you list those facts from the Quran then you are making an appeal to authority, something someone else claims the quran says, what does it actually say?

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Evidence suggests strongly that most scientists agree with them. To pull a quote of myself from an old thread:

 

97% of Royal society members and 93% of National academy of sciences members answer "No" to the question "Do you believe in a personal god?"

http://www.humanreli...telligence.html www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html. This is in two nations (the UK and the USA) where 65% and 93% of the respective populations believe in some form of God. http://en.wikipedia....#United_Kingdom

Those scientists do not believe in God ,they are entiteld to that ,it's their God given right and freedom to believe or not to believe in whatever they wanna believe in or not believe in , but they are not extremists in relation to religion and believers like Dawkins and co are , not even remotely close .

 

Can you see the difference ?

 

Why do you have to twist things like that ?

 

I talk about something and you mention somethingelse tottally different

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Yes, unless you list those facts from the Quran then you are making an appeal to authority, something someone else claims the quran says, what does it actually say?

Once again , I know those verses the Qur'an is full of .

What authority are you talking about then ? Briffault did not link the invention of the scientific method by muslims (by Arabs he said ) to islam : he was a bloody marxist and an orientalist , hallooo.

Go read the Qur'an to find out about that epistemology of his that had lead to the discovery of the scientific method by muslims (Arabs were in the minority in that part , Briffault deliberately choosed to link it to Arabs only , to avoid linking it to muslims ,for obvious reasons : Briffault as an Orientalist also and you know how orientalists were / are : Read the masterpiece of Edward Said about just Orientalists in his " Orientalism " ).

 

 

 

Enough playing , be serious .

 

You are not even funny , let alone that you uttered some intelligent feedback

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Once again , I know those verses the Qur'an is full of .

 

Then quote them...

 

What authority are you talking about then ? Briffault did not link the invention of the scientific method by muslims (by Arabs he said ) to islam : he was a bloody marxist and an orientalist , hallooo.

Go read the Qur'an to find out about that epistemology of his that had lead to the discovery of the scientific method by muslims (Arabs were in the minority in that part , Briffault deliberately choosed to link it to Arabs only , to avoid linking it to muslims ,for obvious reasons : Briffault as an Orientalist also and you know how orientalists were / are : Read the masterpiece of Edward Said about just Orientalists in his " Orientalism " ).

 

None the less this is an appeal to authority, nothing more.

 

 

Enough playing , be serious .

 

You are not even funny , let alone that you uttered some intelligent feedback

 

 

Insults will not advance your assertions...

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but they are not extremists in relation to religion and believers like Dawkins and co are , not even remotely close .

 

BY making such a statement I believe you are now claiming to have knowledge of the intimate religious leanings of the entire Royal Society and AAAS. That's slightly ludicrous.

 

 

Can you see the difference ?

 

Honestly, no. Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris are all atheists. So is the majority of the Royal Society and the AAS, going by survey results. The difference at least as far as I can see is one group publicly comment on their beliefs and the other don't.

 

 

Why do you have to twist things like that ?

 

I talk about something and you mention somethingelse tottally different

 

Again, no, I don't see. Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris are all atheists. So is the majority of the Royal Society and the AAAS. Why are the former "extremists" and the latter not?

Edited by Arete

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No, science is not belief, it does not allow belief, belief is what religion is, can you not see the difference?

 

 

Point out something Dawkins says that is inaccurate... I happen to believe that even moderate religion is driven by it's radical fringes but my "belief" aside I've never heard Dawkins assert something as truth he couldn't back up but he does slay the horsefeathers that many of the religious assert as fact, it hurts to have something you truly believe to be true shown to be false but honest men admit they are wrong and go on, the religious ignore reality and in fact assert that were scripture and reality clash scripture must take precedence. I know Islam does this as well, the whole saltwater freshwater thing is proof of this, that lie is asserted over and over by muslims, usually in muslim schools, as truth when even a small knowledge of the world shows it to be completely false.

 

There are other examples but i see no reason to pick apart any religious dogma here, it would be off topic but rest assured it can be done...

 

You will find nothing of scientific value in any of the worlds religions, no advancement of knowledge, our entire first world culture is based in science, not religion, religion contributes nothing to the sum total of human knowledge and usually inhibits such advancement....

You should try to read what you write first before posting it : it's embarrassing .

 

Secondo : you twist what i say and you give it your own interpretation , then you do base your assumptions on those false interpretations of yours ....to mention just that

 

And most of all, you do not listen to what i say

 

I have posted a whole topic about the islamic origin of the scientific method , for example .

 

I also mentioned the discovery of evolution by muslims ,more than 6 centuries before Darwin was even born , thanks to the evolutionary anti-classical spirit of the Qur'an , to mention just that , and you tell me there is never any value in religion ?

 

Islam that had helped Europe out of its dark age by indirectly triggering the protestant reformation and thus the so-called western enlightenment and much much more ...by inventing science itself the west has made its own by denying its islamic origins , science as the major player that had paved the path to modernity ...

 

 

Besides :

When i said that Dawkins was / is a stupid fanatic atheistic jesuit, when he crosses the boundaries of science , despite his brilliant purely scientific work , you do not even understand such a statement .

 

Worse : you tell me to give you examples regarding that , while all you had to do is read 1 or more of his books or watch 1 or more of his videos ...

 

Ach, you know what ?

 

I am gonna go to sleep .Gotta get up early .Duty calls afterwards .

 

Your "intelligent " replies had "inspired " me so much that they make me feel heavily asleep and bore me to death , no offense

 

Good night

 

First of all ,there are also scientists who do believe in God , that;s what i meant when i said that those scientists atheists have the right not to believe in God ...

 

 

I feel like i am talking to some kid ....God

 

 

Take care and grow up

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You should try to read what you write first before posting it : it's embarrassing .

 

Secondo : you twist what i say and you give it your own interpretation , then you do base your assumptions on those false interpretations of yours ....to mention just that

 

And most of all, you do not listen to what i say

 

I have posted a whole topic about the islamic origin of the scientific method , for example .

 

I also mentioned the discovery of evolution by muslims ,more than 6 centuries before Darwin was even born , thanks to the evolutionary anti-classical spirit of the Qur'an , to mention just that , and you tell me there is never any value in religion ?

 

Islam that had helped Europe out of its dark age by indirectly triggering the protestant reformation and thus the so-called western enlightenment and much much more ...by inventing science itself the west has made its own by denying its islamic origins , science as the major player that had paved the path to modernity ...

 

 

Besides :

When i said that Dawkins was / is a stupid fanatic atheistic jesuit, when he crosses the boundaries of science , despite his brilliant purely scientific work , you do not even understand such a statement .

 

Worse : you tell me to give you examples regarding that , while all you had to do is read 1 or more of his books or watch 1 or more of his videos ...

 

Ach, you know what ?

 

I am gonna go to sleep .Gotta get up early .Duty calls afterwards .

 

Your "intelligent " replies had "inspired " me so much that they make me feel heavily asleep and bore me to death , no offense

 

Good night

 

First of all ,there are also scientists who do believe in God , that;s what i meant when i said that those scientists atheists have the right not to believe in God ...

 

 

I feel like i am talking to some kid ....God

 

 

Take care and grow up

 

 

It's rare that someone makes my own argument for me, thank you very much...

Edited by Moontanman

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Then quote them...

 

 

None the less this is an appeal to authority, nothing more.

 

 

 

 

Insults will not advance your assertions...

When i say something comes from A , i have to prove it does by investigating whether it does come from A or not : is that an appeal to authority ?

 

Read then A to decide for yourself

 

Your intelligent arguments have been turning me into an altruist , so much so that i want you to make your own research about A , for your own good haha , instead of just quoting from A : the latter would encourage you in this lazy path of yours instead

I am not making any insults , just logical deductions based on your very intelligent , very puzzling , very bright and very challenging insights ,inspirations, ideas and replies , that i feel overwhelmed and speechless , so overwhelmed that i feel i am gonna fall asleep like a stone into a deep river thrown from a mountain above

 

Bye

 

I have better things to do later on , instead of listening to this childish non-sense of yours

 

Don't call the latter insults , they are not : they are just deductions : don't give them another name they have or are not

 

It's rare that someone makes my own argument for me, thank you very much...

You are very welcome indeed , don't mention it .

 

Well, the amazing self-deceit of the human mind never fail to amaze me as it does now , more than ever

 

Good night , sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite

 

Tomorrow is another day indeed .

 

 

shuuuutttt i am about to sleep , don't wake me up

 

 

We are all asleep in life , death will wake us up soon enough

Bye

Edited by Dbaiba

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You are making the positive assertions, the burden of proof lies with you, you have failed on all counts to even make an attempt to show evidence of your assertions relying mainly on what others say. If you would provide some actual evidence i would be glad to consider it. But you will have to provide it, it's not up to me to make your argument for you.

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Thanks everybody , appreciate indeed .

 

Tomorrow is another day ,then we'll talk more seriously .

 

I was just teasing some people here , not trying to offend them in any way

 

I am tired and stressful ,so

 

See ya then

 

Gotta really go

 

Good night or day ,depends on your time zone ,mine is way late , so

 

 

Going ....keeping on going ...gone .

 

Bye

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When i say something comes from A , i have to prove it does by investigating whether it does come from A or not : is that an appeal to authority ?

 

Read then A to decide for yourself

 

So far you have not provided "A" only what others say about "A" that is an appeal to authority.

 

 

Your intelligent arguments have been turning me into an altruist , so much so that i want you to make your own research about A , for your own good haha , instead of just quoting from A : the latter would encourage you in this lazy path of yours instead

 

No, you make the positive assertions, you must back them up with positive evidence, not what someone else says about the evidence.

 

 

I am not making any insults , just logical deductions based on your very intelligent , very puzzling , very bright and very challenging insights ,inspirations, ideas and replies , that i feel overwhelmed and speechless , so overwhelmed that i feel i am gonna fall asleep like a stone into a deep river thrown from a mountain above

 

Bye

 

I suggest you read your scriptures for your self and stop letting others tell you what they mean.

 

 

 

I have better things to do later on , instead of listening to this childish non-sense of yours

 

I think others here will attest to me posts not being childish or nonsense but everyone has an opinion...

 

 

 

Don't call the latter insults , they are not : they are just deductions : don't give them another name they have or are not

 

You are very welcome indeed , don't mention it .

 

Well, the amazing self-deceit of the human mind never fail to amaze me as it does now , more than ever

 

Mirror mirror on the wall who is the most self deceptive of them all?

 

 

 

Good night , sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite

 

Tomorrow is another day indeed .

 

 

shuuuutttt i am about to sleep , don't wake me up

 

 

We are all asleep in life , death will wake us up soon enough

Bye

 

I don't have bed bugs and death is just that death nothing more...

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!

Moderator Note

Dbaiba,

 

To further elaborate on my other modnote, a number of your more recent comments contain offensive statements and are in violation of our forum rules. If you cannot abide by these rules, which you agreed you would do upon signing up, you will be suspended. Comment on the ideas, not the people making them.

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