UFO/ET Phenomenon

[swansont]

I have a lot of respect for Neil but in this case he followed the party line of UFOs are unidentified lights in the sky and chose the most ridiculous part of the phenomena, one that does have a prosaic explanation and set it up as a strawman.

 

He gave that as one example, but all examples still fall under the underlying theme of "you need scientific evidence". It's not enough to say that it could be an alien, you have to be able to exclude the other possibilities, i.e. that it could only be an alien. As he says, if you can't come to a definitive conclusion, that's where the conversation ends: it's unidentified.

[Moontanman]

He gave that as one example, but all examples still fall under the underlying theme of "you need scientific evidence". It's not enough to say that it could be an alien, you have to be able to exclude the other possibilities, i.e. that it could only be an alien. As he says, if you can't come to a definitive conclusion, that's where the conversation ends: it's unidentified.

 

 

Shouldn't that be where the investigation begins? Again i find myself supporting a thread that started out silly but i do know of official reports that could only have been foreign technology and if some one other than us had that technology then our efforts are like trying to develop a superior P-51 mustang when everyone else is developing stealth fighters...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Zamora_incident

[ydoaPs]

I have a lot of respect for Neil but in this case he followed the party line of UFOs are unidentified lights in the sky

That's not the party line-that's the definition.

[Moontanman]

That's not the party line-that's the definition.

 

yes... in the same way that theory means something some one thought up last night....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO

 

 

 

USAF Regulation 200-2

Air Force Regulation 200-2,^[33] issued in 1953 and 1954, defined an Unidentified Flying Object ("UFOB") as "any airborne object which by performance, aerodynamic characteristics, or unusual features, does not conform to any presently known aircraft or missile type, or which cannot be positively identified as a familiar object." The regulation also said UFOBs were to be investigated as a "possible threat to the security of the United States" and "to determine technical aspects involved." The regulation went on to say that "it is permissible to inform news media representatives on UFOB's when the object is positively identified as a familiar object," but added: "For those objects which are not explainable, only the fact that ATIC [Air Technical Intelligence Center] will analyze the data is worthy of release, due to many unknowns involved."^[34][35]

Edited March 19, 2013 by Moontanman

[ydoaPs]

yes... in the same way that theory means something some one thought up last night....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO

How, exactly, does your quote disagree with me? It says, in a more verbose way, exactly that an Unidentified Flying Object is a flying object that is as of yet unidentified. So, yeah, UFOs are lights in the sky. The jump from "I wonder what that is" to "DESPITE THE OVERWHELMING IMPROBABILITY OF THIS HYPOTHESIS, IT MUST BE ALIENS" is more massive than the black hole at the center of our galaxy.

[Moontanman]

How, exactly, does your quote disagree with me? It says, in a more verbose way, exactly that an Unidentified Flying Object is a flying object that is as of yet unidentified. So, yeah, UFOs are lights in the sky. The jump from "I wonder what that is" to "DESPITE THE OVERWHELMING IMPROBABILITY OF THIS HYPOTHESIS, IT MUST BE ALIENS" is more massive than the black hole at the center of our galaxy.

 

 

How does this mean a light in the sky?

 

"any airborne object which by performance, aerodynamic characteristics, or unusual features, does not conform to any presently known aircraft or missile type, or which cannot be positively identified as a familiar object."

 

 

A light in the sky is just that, a light in the sky, to be a UFO means it has characteristics that cannot be explained in terms of current knowledge, a light in the sky can be explained many different ways... A UFO is not a light in the sky any more than a theory is anything you think might be true...

[SplitInfinity]

In an attempt to provide some here with at least a DIRECTION to look and obtain information from a reliable source or group I will inform members about actions that are known to have occured at the time when the FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT was about to become active law.

 

This direction will allow those interested to find much data about E.T. and the Military Brass, Executive Branch of the U.S. at this time as well as this branches activities at moments in the past as well as former Presidents of the U.S. and to be Presidents actions and decisions which have been detailed in many letters, transcripts, Military Communications and Intell. Agencies committee creations as they apply to their conversations, infighting and decisions reguarding E.T. and UFO Flyovers that were responded to by the U.S. Military and thus documented.

 

This is ONLY ment to provide a direction and any and all Documentation found and known was made available by the Freedom of Information Act...some on purpose...some not.

 

It is well known that a Standing President of the United States does not have the Top Clearence Level to veiw all ABOVE ULTRA-TOP SECRET Documentation and unless an elected President has previously held a position such as CIA Director...NSA Chief...Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or headed NASA or Space Command...such a President is on a NEED TO KNOW basis for such Intell. An example of this is how Vice President George Bush held a higher clearence level than then President Reagan...as Bush held several positions including Director of the CIA that were specific in that a Top Clearence Level was required.

 

Very soon before the Freedom of Information Act was to go into effect...Computer Files and old style Microfische were "CLEANSED" of any information that was considered to sensitive for release to the General Public. These actions are easily understood as well as necessary for the safety of the United States.

 

What was FORGOTTEN was a large amount of old 1940's and 1950's and early 1960's PAPER FILES that due to their quantity, size and physical nature...could not be "CLEANSED or SCRUBBED" in the manner Computer Files could be. Add to this the problem presented by many observing as well as camping out and around Government Data storage sites members of Political Action Groups who were sensitive to the past secrecy and illegal actions taken to destroy files on such isues as the exposure of U.S. Soldiers and Citizens to Radiation...tests done on populations using various chemicals and drugs as well as soldiers and citizens that were given doses of LSD and other like drugs without their knowledge....the ability for any group or agency of the U.S. Government to destroy such files that were to be made public was either extremely difficult or impossible.

 

At several U.S. Government Data Storage Facilities that held MILLIONS upon Millions of physical paperwork documents that came from many departments and even military and other agencies that went back past the turn of the 20th century...it was deceided at the last moment just before Freedom of Information Act was to go into effect...as well as this last moment decision being driven by a breakdown in the multi-months long process of checking and overseeing all data that was to be made publically available...in which this breakdown created the situation of a vast amount of PAPER DOCUMENTATION having it's very existence presented with the knowledge that not enough time was available to check through this old data to sort out what would be considered SENSITIVE and not made available for public veiw...as well as no time and no ability to remove such documentation and move it to another site without Information Activists knowing of such a move as the amount of paperwork was VAST.

 

A decision was made to grab as much specificly labeled or known files and simply move and hide them within the old files of the Dept. of Agriculture which were stored at several of the same buildings. This idea was based on the premise that anyone who legally sought data via Freedom of Information would never think to ask or even consider that possible one time sensitive files would be in the Dept. of Agriculture stored documentation.

 

This worked for years until by complete chance...someone looking for documentation in the Dept. of Agriculture seeking turn of the 19th century land claims and farming documents would open a box and find many documents pertaining to UFO's...E.T...and a very specific fight by way of letters between General Curtis LeMay...the founder of SAC...and J. Edgar Hoover...the notorious FBI Director.

 

If anyone want to know the letters story...I will provide it on request.

 

Split Infinity

[Moontanman]

I'd love to see this...

It's also interesting to note that air defense radar and satellites pick up unidentified objects as well...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastwalkers

[SplitInfinity]

I'd love to see this...

 

It's also interesting to note that air defense radar and satellites pick up unidentified objects as well...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastwalkers

 

I will tell you what words to run a search for as I cannot be detected accessing such information. It should be easy to find using what I tell you.

 

VERY shortly after the Roswell event...in which E.T. Craft wreckage as well as Biological recoveries were sent to then known Wright Field which is now named and known as Wright Patterson USAF Base the home of the United States Recovery, Reverse Engineering and Technology Dissemenation Agency...which is responsible for the study and reverse engineering for any recovered or purchased or obtained Flight Based Technology as well as a dept. within that is specific to a wider consideration of tech. MiG-29's, Su-30 and Su-35's were first brought to Wright Patterson to be taken apart...studied...and put back together to be then shipped to a variety of USAF PROVING GROUNDS of which the Groom Lake Facility also known as Area 51 in Pop Culture...to be flown by U.S. Pilots and U.S. Military Contractor personel at first to determine flight charachteristics and abilities....then to study and determine these aircrafts abilities against U.S. Aircraft, U.S. Air to Air and Ground to Air Missiles as well as all jamming, radar cross section and other electronic warfare capabilities.

 

After the Biological and Material wreckage was shipped to Wright Field after the Roswell event...then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover who knew about the crash and most of the details about it as the FBI Director was known now to have FBI operatives and informants planted in just about every branch and every level of the U.S. Military. Hoover also had operatives planted in every Agency, Dept, Group, Branch and Political Party in the United States and even in Europe.

 

Hoover was incensed that an event of such a high threat level to National Security was being delt with without Hoover being in the LOOP. He argued since the Event occured in the United States that the FBI had jurisdiction and the Military and any then existing Intell. groups were to take a back seat. Hoover sent many letter to General Curtis LeMay...the man responsible for creating SAC or Strategic Air Command as well as being quoted saying the now famous..."BOMB THEM BACK TO THE STONE AGE". At the time the only NUCLEAR CAPABLE BOMBING WING IN THE WORLD existed at Roswell as it was known as the 509th Army Air Group stationed at Roswell Army Air Field or RAAF....of the 8th Air Force. The USAF did not yet exist but General LeMay was hard at work developing his ideas to turn SAC which was established in 1945...into his dream of High and Fast Flying Heavy Jet Bombers capable of having the range to perform Nuclear Bombing Runs at any target...any time and any place in the World. The wreckage recovery certainly had LeMay as well as the General Staff of the Army Air Corp. looking for advantages over the Soviet Union.

 

Hoover was extremely angry after LeMay sent back responses to Hoovers inquiries and outright DEMANDS to be allowed to see the wreckage as well as Hoover DEMANDED that the Military turn over all evidence and wreckage to the FBI. Although LeMay was not at the time the Head of the Army Air Corps....IKE had told President Truman that LeMay had brilliant ideas to turn SAC into a Game Changer thus LeMay had the backing of the President as well as IKE.

 

Hoovers demands became so incessent that Ike and then Truman had to personally speak with the FBI director as he was told to SHUT UP about this Roswell Event. Hoover then made the issue personal as the FBI director threatened to release information to the PUBLIC that he had that would be damaging to Ike, Truman and LeMay...but LeMay sent Hoover a letter stating...He did not care! And that Hoover was playing a DANGEROUS GAME...as at this point a defacto state of WAR seemed to exist between the FBI and SAC.

 

The letters...many of...but not all...were located and made available using the Freedom of Information Act. These letters were NEVER ment to be seen by the public and every attempt has been made to discredit their authenticity.

 

This is but one isue made public from those burried files.

 

Split Infinity

[ResistETIntervention]

The astrophysicist Neil deGrasse in the video was an interesting fellow…contradictory, but a handsome and interesting fellow. He sort of reminded me of the handsome and charismatic Carl Sagan who had many friends in the positions of power in politics. He also said something like what Neil deGrasse said; he didn’t state whether we were being visited by aliens from outer space or not, but he made a video in which he attempted to “compute” the probability of intelligent beings in outer space who might wish to communicate with human beings, via Drake’s Equation – an equation that middle school student would find ludicrous. Yet, I’ve encountered people through forums such as this, who apparently considered themselves to be scientific and intelligent, would attempt to convince me that the possibility of intelligent beings existing in the universe is so low that it doesn’t concern us, according to the equation.

Was Carl Sagan artificially elevated to the position of a “celebrated scientist” by certain individuals in the positions of power, in order to keep the public ignorant about the phenomenon? Is Neil deGrasse? By the same token, do you know of anyone such as Karla Turner who exposed the sinister hidden activities the extraterrestrials have been carrying out and became a victim of denigration meant to discredit him/her?

Neil deGrasse sat in his chair with an air of embarrassment that he should even be responding to a topic such as the UFO/ET phenomenon, in his position as an astrophysicist. He had a big telescope stationed behind him to ensure that the audience recognized his standing as a scientist. Or was he possibly attempting to spot UFOs or a star in the studio/auditorium?

He began with a joke that “I’m not authorized to answer that.” That is actually the only true statement he spoke in the course of that 11-minute video clip. He is NOT authorized to answer any questions on the UFO/ET phenomenon because his intention was to belittle witnesses and abductees and trivialize their testimonies and the phenomenon.

Neil deGrasse dropped the title “psychologists” many times in his speech, in order to allude to the audience that UFO witnesses and abductees are mental cases. Neil deGrasse is employing that method to the letter in order to denigrate UFO witnesses and abductees. By the way, a psychologist major I spoke to about a light spot attaining a superluminal speed from a stationary position questioned me: “Are you sure you didn’t see a bird?” I’m not sure whether he even knew what superluminal speed was, but I do believe that he may need a psychologist if he believes that millions of people around the globe would mistake birds for UFOs. Another psychologist major I spoke to about UFO phenomenon told me that they [uFO witnesses] are all crazy. So millions of people all over the world have
been going loco particularly in the last six decades? Hmmm….

Neil deGrasse also said that if people see a UFO, then it is “unidentified” so the conversation should stop there. Isn’t it odd that a scientist should say this? Human minds will tend to reason out and derive conclusions when they observe an incidence that cannot be explained. This is the first step of the scientific method: observe and form a hypothesis. If unidentified flying objects are immobile or moving in such ways that cannot possibly be explained away as weather phenomenon, atmospheric phenomenon, meteors, meteorites, airplanes, helicopters, or birds, then the next logical thing to hypothesize is that they must be extraterrestrial spaceships. Observing and forming hypotheses have been what people are taught to do as the first step of carrying out the scientific method. Yet, the scientist encourages people to stop at the observation and move on with their lives. Should they? Yes, I mean the scientists. Should they stop at the observation and move on with their lives? Could they do so as scientists? They’re more interested in watching stars far away in the universe than the strange phenomenon of UFOs occurring right here in our world. How could they possibly? It’s quite absurd.

He also said that the public has the “burning need to have the answer to what is unknown.” Ummm…isn’t that the very need all scientists have? Isn’t that why they became scientists? Shouldn’t that be their attitude? Yet, with millions of sightings all over the world with evidence that have been mounting over the past six decades, he sat there in a chair complacently and told the audience that they shouldn’t try to seek any answer to what is unknown - apparently because such strange phenomenon does not interest scientists such as himself? They would spend enormous amount of money on high-tech devices to observe stars that are light years away, which have no immediate bearing on our lives, but he casually dismisses the UFO phenomenon occurring in our world as just “unknown phenomenon,” the event which laymen should not even bother to delve into, let alone the scientists themselves?

Hmmm…. Interesting….contradictory but interesting….

Neil deGrassed said that “the lowest form of evidence in this world is eyewitness evidence,” although these are used to determine people’s fate in the court of law. He even had a second-grade boy ready at a microphone to demonstrate that ear-witness is unreliable, in order to suggest that those who rely on the testimonies of other witnesses of UFOs are less intelligent than second-grade elementary school students. He even mentioned that camera/video evidences are not acceptable, either. Since extraterrestrial spaceships can travel at such unearthly high velocities, the only way authentic photos or videos can be produced is if the UFO witnesses happen to have a camcorder or cameras handy by chance at the time they were sighting. I certainly didn’t have any such devices handy when I sighted UFOs. However, don’t these scientists have access to high-tech equipment (satellites, high resolutions telescopes, etc.) to observe such incidences around the clock and record them? If not, since, apparently, none of the scientists have ever sighted UFOs, they really don’t have any authorities to even speak about the phenomenon, do they?

He stated that witness’ testimonies, photos, and videos do not satisfy any scientists’ requirements as evidence. Witness’ testimonies, photos, and videos cannot satisfy their requirements? Aren’t these the same people who totally believed the Einstein’s relativity theory that “prohibits” any objects from travelling at superluminal speed, the theory that was not even formed from empirical data? Aren’t these the same people who believe in space-time warp and wormholes, even though there were absolutely no empirical data to support their theories? Aren’t these the same people who created a whole quantum theory based on the existence of quarks that have never been observed but imagined? So, in order to satisfy their requirements of evidence, people must come up with some outlandish theories rather than providing actual physical evidences or testimonies based on observations? Science certainly has changed a lot, hasn’t it?

Do you find it ludicrous that these scientists are the ones who should get excited beyond words to have such strange phenomenon as UFO/ET phenomenon to investigate and delve into, and yet, they are the ones more nonchalant about it than laymen?

He also mentioned “optical illusion” as “brain failure” in his attempt to brainwash the pacified audience that UFO witnesses have mistaken “optical illusory” incidences as UFOs and that their brains have failed them because they were seeing such incidences. Try telling this to millions of witnesses all around the globe. How odd that, all of a sudden, modern people with all they know cannot even distinguish UFOs from birds or light glows around clouds…

Neil deGrasse questioned why extraterrestrial spaceships always land on farmers’ lands instead of Times Square. Then he made a mocking joke with a person sitting next to him that perhaps it did land on Times Square, but people didn’t even notice it. He obviously read a thing or two about crop circles that cannot be explained away, so he made a mockery out of it. People seem to feel empowered by making mockeries out of and laughing at things that they cannot explain. The Extraterrestrial Intervention is here to conquer the world covertly. They will not land their spaceships in a crowded place such as Times Square……until they have already attained their goal and are ready to present themselves to the public.

Should such happen, that would be an indication that it would be too late for humanity to do anything to thwart their agenda.

Neil deGrasse went on to speak about Roswell incidence that everyone on the planet seems to know about because it was perhaps the first UFO crash incidence that was covered completely in all the media, as it happened. Yet, after the Pacification Program was initiated evidently, the incidence was denied as never having taken place or the evidence of which was regarded as unclear or invalid, with many documents sprouting afterwards that “prove” such stances.

He also went on to denigrate abductees and trivialize ET phenomenon. He made a mocking suggestion to abductees that the next time they get abducted, they should tell the extraterrestrial abductors to “look over there” and snatch some object on the spaceship as evidence. He jokingly stated that, then, he’d be interested in talking to them about alien abduction. People are abducted against their will, physically immobilized, their memories suppressed or replaced, physically probed and experimented, sexually raped by extraterrestrials, forced to have intercourse with other abductees, and psychologically and mentally damaged and/or controlled. They are not only sexually raped by the extraterrestrial abductors, but also by fellow human beings such as Neil deGrasse and his pacified audience and followers who laugh and clap at his jokes and mockeries of them. In the interim, people continue to get abducted, who cope with psychological, physical, and mental trauma which resulted from their abduction episodes, and live in constant fear of not knowing when they may get abducted again. How inhuman are such people who ridicule their fellow human beings suffering as unfortunate victims of the phenomenon? How foolish are they to help the Extraterrestrial Intervention in such manner!

Do they realize that any one of them could be the next victim to get abducted by these extraterrestrial beings? Do they realize that their loved ones could be the next victim to get abducted?

[pwagen]

One of the craziest attempts to introduce a conspiracy I've ever read. So many things wrong with that post, it's hard to know where to begin.

 

You obviously know nothing about Tyson, and you seem to have no clue about what Sagan meant for the popularization of science.

[ResistETIntervention]

pwagen, don't just state your opinion.

[pwagen]

Sure. Try not to get the topic locked until I get off work.

[ResistETIntervention]

By Tyson, do you mean the boxer? Why is this relevant here?

 

By the way, please read this book before accusing anyone of attempting a conspiracy theory. It is called "Taken" by Dr. Karla Turner, an abductee herself. The book is a collection of testimonies of abductees.

 

http://www.viewzone.com/ebooks/KarlaTurnerTaken.pdf

A true scientist wouldn't have possibly mentioned the Drake Equation as anything close to valid, for it is entirely unscientific and nonmathematical. I understand why scientists cannot delve into the UFO/ET phenomenon. However, scientists would not lose respect, if, at least, they would not dismiss millions of UFO sightings around the world in derogatory manner or treat abductees like mental cases.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ResistETIntervention

[pwagen]

By Tyson, do you mean the boxer? Why is this relevant here?

Guess I didn't even need to get home before you proved my "opinion" as fact. And you seem to have difficulties taking in information from this thread as well.

 

I suspect a troll, but of course there could be underlying causes.

[ResistETIntervention]

What exactly did you set out to prove? That I don't know who Neil deGrasse Tyson is? It's a shame that they would use an apparently well-known astrophysicist to exercise "spin and dirty tricks." Don't you think?

 

Also, which information do you think I'm having difficulties taking in? Could you kindly explain all the "trolls" out there?

[pwagen]

What exactly did you set out to prove? That I don't know who Neil deGrasse Tyson is?

If you did, the only reason you'd mention the boxer would be to be snide. You wouldn't do that, would you?

 

And anectdotal evidence from an alien abduction survivor isn't real evidence.

[ResistETIntervention]

Shouldn't you say that to Neil deGrasse?

 

Once again, I will ask the same question that I've asked two other members in this thread. What would you consider "real evidence" or "scientific evidence"?

I've noticed that scientifically inclined people tend to reject "anecdotal evidence" from an alien abduction survivors as non-real evidence. Do you seriously agree with Neil deGrasse who asked abductees to grab an item while onboard the spaceship? They are abducted generally out of their bed against their will and immobilized in the spaceships. If they could move as they will it, do you think they might not have screamed for help or, indeed, grab an item from the spaceship? How callous can you get?

 

Anecdotal evidence is mostly what humanity has in figuring out about the Extraterrestrial Intervention. However, Dr. Roger Leir, a surgeon, has been extracting implants out
of abductees’ bodies. He had them sent to independent laboratories which analyzed them; all of them concluded that they were made of extraterrestrial substance.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ResistETIntervention

[pwagen]

Shouldn't you say that to Neil deGrasse?

 

Once again, I will ask the same question that I've asked two other members in this thread. What would you consider "real evidence" or "scientific evidence"?

 

Anecdotal evidence is mostly what humanity has in figuring out about the Extraterrestrial Intervention.

You know what else has nothing but anecdotal evidence? Fairies.

 

http://www.fairygardens.com/sightings/

 

Why give more credence to abductees than fairy sighters?

 

However, Dr. Roger Leir, a surgeon, has been extracting implants out

of abductees bodies. He had them sent to independent laboratories which analyzed them and all concluded that they were made of extraterrestrial substance.

Citation, please.

[ResistETIntervention]

“The Aliens and the Scalpel” is a book written by Dr. Roger Leir, a surgeon who has been extracting implants from abductees. When these implants were sent to independent laboratories, the results of their analysis proved to be of extraterrestrial nature. Here is a quote from the book:

Most of the metallurgy indicates that the structure of these objects has an extraterrestrial origin. If this is indeed the case, we will be able to conclude that some individuals with alien abduction histories have objects in their bodies of extraterrestrial origin. The composition of the objects includes metals whose isotopic ratios are clearly extraterrestrial. Moreover, the form of the objects is clearly engineered and manufactured with precision rather than being a naturally occurring form. In short, we now have the “smoking gun” of ufology: hard physical evidence of an alien presence on Earth! (Leir 161)

 

[pwagen]

The Aliens and the Scalpel is a book written by Dr. Roger Leir, a surgeon who has been extracting implants from abductees. When these implants were sent to independent laboratories, the results of their analysis proved to be of extraterrestrial nature. Here is a quote from the book:

 

So basically more anecdotal evidence? Where are the reports from the labs he sent the implants to? Edited March 20, 2013 by pwagen

[ResistETIntervention]

The reports from the labs are in the aforementioned book. It's mindboggling how those skeptics who request scientific evidence will reject even scientific evidence.

 

By the way, have you not read other people's posts in this thread?

Edited March 20, 2013 by ResistETIntervention

[Klaynos]

My big issue with most of these things comes down to two things, eye witness reports are known to be fundamentally flawed and just because you, I or everyone cannot explain something doesn't mean you immediately jump to aliens, we don't know is a valid answer especially when the events are not repeatable.

[pwagen]

The reports from the labs are in the aforementioned book.

So the only evidence the implants are extra terrestial, or even exist, are in his book? And that doesn't ring a bell?

 

It's mindboggling how those skeptics who request scientific evidence will reject even scientific evidence.

Until such a time that you show reports from an unbiased third party, it's not confirmed scientific evidence.

[ResistETIntervention]

Klaynos, please read the posts by “Split Infinity” above. Please read the book “Taken” by Dr. Karla Turner – it’s a book of collection of the testimonies by abductees, some of whom recall part of the abduction on their own. Also, please read the book “The Aliens and Scalpel” by Roger Leir who have been extracting extraterrestrial implants from abductees’ bodies.

Pwagon, are you asking me to purchase the book for you? What are you saying? Or are you saying all of the laboratories that confirmed the implants as manufactured out of extraterrestrial substance are not unbiased third party?